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  1. #41
    I tried this an hour ago, but my post never posted apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Wolves damage won't even double.

    We currently have every 11 seconds a wf procc, with more haste and EM every 10.6 sec according to simcraft. On average it means that we will get (after the first one) every 68.4 seconds another SW ready, instead of every 120 seconds. That's not even doubling the uptime. On a 5min fight, it means you get instead of 3 SW
    4 uses and a little rest of the 5th one now.

    In pratice, it will never ever being close to doubling it. On a 6min fight, it will be 3-> 5.
    On a 7min fight, it will be 4 -> 6.

    As cou can see, it 's more like a 50% to 70% uptime increase on an ability that does 2.3% dps. So it's more like a 1.5% dps increase on average - whic is weak. It simply is a weak bonus.
    I don't understand exactly what you mean by "We currently have every 11 seconds a wf procc." This whole 11s math is a terrible way to do the math. It overly complicates simple math.
    Looking over my last protectors log I had 126 WF procs in a 435s fight. That's one proc every 3.66s. That means in every 36.6 seconds i will have reduced the CD of wolves by 80 seconds. meaning i can press the button again in ~3.3 seconds.
    That TRIPLES the uptime making this set bonus fantastic.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Swarles View Post
    I tried this an hour ago, but my post never posted apparently.



    I don't understand exactly what you mean by "We currently have every 11 seconds a wf procc." This whole 11s math is a terrible way to do the math. It overly complicates simple math.
    Looking over my last protectors log I had 126 WF procs in a 435s fight. That's one proc every 3.66s. That means in every 36.6 seconds i will have reduced the CD of wolves by 80 seconds. meaning i can press the button again in ~3.3 seconds.
    That TRIPLES the uptime making this set bonus fantastic.
    You're counting windfury attacks. Each proc = 3 attacks. 3 x 3.66 = 10.98 (i.e. ~11).

  3. #43
    Edit: Editing a post apparently makes it disappear for half an hour and then show back up randomly!
    Last edited by Swarles; 2013-01-13 at 02:36 AM. Reason: edit'd post disappeared and showed back up 30 mins later

  4. #44
    Wow I've been reading these forums for a long time, and until I started posting on them, never knew how buggy they were.. Is this common?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    You're counting windfury attacks. Each proc = 3 attacks. 3 x 3.66 = 10.98 (i.e. ~11).
    Yeah.. I'm realizing that now. I'm now severely disappointed. A 3s ICD shouldn't be proc'ing every 11s, if that's the case why is there even a 3s ICD. Time to start pleading for WF to be placed on the RPPM system I guess.

  5. #45
    The Patient Karlz0rz's Avatar
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    Now the question is - Does a WF procc give you 3 x 8 seconds reduction, on only 1 for the procc?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlz0rz View Post
    Now the question is - Does a WF procc give you 3 x 8 seconds reduction, on only 1 for the procc?
    Only 1, it would be op if it was 24sec each proc.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Swarles View Post
    I tried this an hour ago, but my post never posted apparently.



    I don't understand exactly what you mean by "We currently have every 11 seconds a wf procc." This whole 11s math is a terrible way to do the math. It overly complicates simple math.
    Looking over my last protectors log I had 126 WF procs in a 435s fight. That's one proc every 3.66s. That means in every 36.6 seconds i will have reduced the CD of wolves by 80 seconds. meaning i can press the button again in ~3.3 seconds.
    That TRIPLES the uptime making this set bonus fantastic.
    It doesn't procc on each wf hit, it triggers on every wf procc. So three wf hits are one procc.

    And those 11 secs are the simmed values on AVERAGE. You might have one time 7 sec between two proccs, another time 15 sec and average @ 11.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlz0rz View Post
    Now the question is - Does a WF procc give you 3 x 8 seconds reduction, on only 1 for the procc?
    This questtion has been clearly stated via blue post:

    The Enhancement 4pc triggers each time Windfury procs, not for each attack it generates.

    It means one procc every 11 sec -> nearly 70 secs SW. The first SW will be right at the beginning, so for the first one, the cd doesn't matter.

    That's why it's more like 50% more uptime or 70% more uptime on an ability with 2.3% of our dps. 50% * 2.3% = 1.15 %, 70% * 2.3% = 1.61%.

    So the set bonus averages to be a 1.4 to at best 1.5% dps upgrade.

    The 2p is also very underwhelming. So both set bonuses together may be less than 2.5%.

    Compared to our current set bonus being over 5%, we will simply lose a lot of dps compared to everyone else. Especially since most classes get stronger T15 than T14.

    Now, that they nerf EM, you can for sure expect a clear nerf compared to everyone else, partially because of the UF nerf, and the bigger nerf is the weak set bonus.

    It's like everyone else will be doing 2-4k more dps than we will gain. That's about the difference, we are ahead of the weakest melee classes.

  8. #48
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    This is all very disappointing news... I really felt like Enhance was at a good place. Not too strong, not bad at all.
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  9. #49
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Xeonde, while a bad set bonus is a bad set bonus, it isn't the end of the world (they're always relatively small %'s, it will put you behind the pack a little and further behind the top classes but it's no impossible gap still). Especially as next tier it's gone.

    I think the enhancement set bonuses are a real disappointment, but for as much as it's just another unnecessary prod, it's not a huge damage reduction simply because tier bonuses rarely are a huge damage increase. If other specs keep OP bonuses (such as elemental's 2set that I have little doubt will be brought down before live) then it will be of more issue, but then once again only for one tier, at least.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    That's why it's more like 50% more uptime or 70% more uptime on an ability with 2.3% of our dps. 50% * 2.3% = 1.15 %, 70% * 2.3% = 1.61%.

    So the set bonus averages to be a 1.4 to at best 1.5% dps upgrade.

    The 2p is also very underwhelming. So both set bonuses together may be less than 2.5%.

    Compared to our current set bonus being over 5%, we will simply lose a lot of dps compared to everyone else. Especially since most classes get stronger T15 than T14.

    Now, that they nerf EM, you can for sure expect a clear nerf compared to everyone else, partially because of the UF nerf, and the bigger nerf is the weak set bonus.

    It's like everyone else will be doing 2-4k more dps than we will gain. That's about the difference, we are ahead of the weakest melee classes.
    Please drop the wild exaggerations.

    The 4p bonus averages out to 1.7-1.8% with the default actionlist in SimC (feral spirit at the bottom). Whether that's ideal or not remains to be seen, but it's not 1.4 to "at best" 1.5%.

    Yes, the 2p bonus is underwhelming. It isn't the worst set bonus we've ever had, but it's pretty close. Combined, the two set bonuses are worth 2.6-3.1% DPS, depending on talent selection (not "may be less than 2.5%"). Our current set bonuses are not worth a combined "over 5%" - they're worth 4.5% for a single talent combination (echo/uf), and 3.1-3.5% for most others (which admittedly aren't competitive now, but they will be next patch).

    All said and done, our best talent combination with 4p T15 on PTR does 99.3% as much dps as our best talent combination on live with 4p T14 (see http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthre...ll=1#post83506 for details). This is not a huge drop-off by any stretch of the imagination, and it doesn't represent a huge threat to our current standing (our spec does very competitive DPS right now, and we scale very well with all of our stats). Not only that, but our spec will be much more flexible next patch since all of our talent combinations will be viable. In other words, we will be able to adapt to a wider range of combat situations more effectively.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2013-01-14 at 07:24 AM.

  11. #51
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Using simcraft as our source of "very" competitive dps is absolutely hilarious. Midpack is a long way off risking being OP with an in-line setbonus. You wouldn't even put us outside the pack with real setbonuses.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Using simcraft as our source of "very" competitive dps is absolutely hilarious.
    Don't think anyone did that. We're competitive in actual raids (see: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/ )

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Midpack is a long way off risking being OP with an in-line setbonus. You wouldn't even put us outside the pack with real setbonuses.
    Not sure who you're arguing against here. I've said all along that the 2p bonus is weak.

  13. #53
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Either I misread it wrong or you edited the part I was arguing out, either way it's not there now.

  14. #54
    New 2pc looks like.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    Shaman (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    • We're changing the Enhance 2pc from 3 charges on Unleashed Weapon to 1 charge on all Shocks.
    • For the Enhance 2pc, we're going to try Storm Strike gives you 2 charges on Maelstrom Weapon, for the reasons mentioned.
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  15. #55
    So one charge on shocks, 2 charges on Stormstrike with the 2P bonus.

    There's still quite high potential for wastage of charges - mainly with SS obviously since you're likely to generate a couple of charges for just hitting the button regardless of the 2P. At least they are taking feedback into account, and will hopefully do the same with the updated set bonus. As I think has been mentioned previously in the thread, the ability to pool MW charges above 5 would be pretty amazing.

    One can dream

  16. #56
    I think have MW go pass 5 stacks and only use 5 stacks is a programming limitation on blizzards part. A better option would be allow us to instant cast two or "maybe" three spells while the buff last.

  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire NPSlow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by withoutaname View Post
    I think have MW go pass 5 stacks and only use 5 stacks is a programming limitation on blizzards part. A better option would be allow us to instant cast two or "maybe" three spells while the buff last.
    That's exactly how they changed paladin holy power for MoP, it used to be 3 max and is now 5 while abilities still will use at max 3.

    That being said the blue post linked in this thread is the first I've seen of "1 charge of maelstrom per shock".. the notes imply only SS will be granting the extra charges.

    I like the change, SS already is a solid source for MW charges, and the old 2 piece was a sideways buff to Unleash Fury and I'm above and beyond over that talent.
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  18. #58
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    Far as I understand it, they changed it to 1 charge from Shocks for a day or two. Then they changed it again to how it currently works: 2 charges on SS. That is, you won't be getting charges from both Shocks and SS.

  19. #59
    Stood in the Fire NPSlow's Avatar
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    2 charges from SS is awesome in my opinion. I am imagining awesome opportunities with Elemental Blast.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by NPSlow View Post
    2 charges from SS is awesome in my opinion. I am imagining awesome opportunities with Elemental Blast.
    I would've much preferred it to be paired with Lava Lash. Stormstrike already is a massive Maelstrom proccing machine. Its going to force us to cast LB at ~3 stacks before we use Stormstrike because chances are we will waste stacks. Whereas LL isnt as likely to be procing obscene Maelstrom stacks.

    See how it plays out. Theyve already shown theyre willing to play around with it a bit so we will have to sit back and see what numbers come out of it.

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