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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
    Only looking at the top 100 parses has extreme bias. There have been countless posts explaining this so I am not going into the details.
    I state in the exact post that you are quoting that the value of parses is very small, this applies both to top 100 and other parses (do I even need to explain why all parses is completely useless?). You are the one who brought them up, here:
    Holy is parsing ahead of both resto shaman and resto druids along with arguably beating mistweaver monks despite the fact the vast majority of players in a competitive environment are playing disc because it is superior.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-13 at 04:11 PM.

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    I state in the exact post that you are quoting that the value of parses is very small, this applies both to top 100 and other parses (do I even need to explain why all parses is completely useless?). You are the one who brought them up, here:
    And you are the one claiming holy is the weakest of all healing specs which is rather hard to justify when resto druid and mistweaver monk utility is no better while not out healing holy priests and resto shaman are numerically weaker while having stronger cooldowns so that is close to a wash. I am not making any grand claim that holy priests are great, just that they are not the worst. If you feel numbers in general are a near meaningless assessment then what is your basis that makes holy priests so terrible?

  3. #43
    They barely have any representation in top guilds (and the presence of disc doesn't devalue holy at all in 25 mans, and barely in 10s). I would say that they have the worst utility in the game (druid and mw have shit utility as well, but it's at least better for most encounters). Unlike disc/palas the other healers don't inflate the meters as severly meaning that holy being significantly lower than them in top 100 parses does show something (I'd even argue that they have better spot healing than druids/shamans, which if anything should inflate them compared to these specs), even if it isn't the entire truth. It's true that their results in the top 100 parses or the representation doesn't prove anything (just like you hardly can prove that they are at the same level as the other specs), but it's definitely hinting that holy isn't in a good spot atm. Unlike dps it's practically impossible to prove how strong a healing spec is so this is basically as good as it gets.

  4. #44
    They don't have a high representation in HM guilds because HM guilds are using as many cheap tactics to plow through content to be #1 as fast as possible.

    So yes, HM top guilds are stacking disc because it makes most encounters TRIVIAL.


    That does not mean holy is NOT viable, it just means holy cannot carry raids like disc can, disc will get the bat eventually trust me. Just wait for it.




    I prefer holy over disc any day personally, disc to me is just boring and easy to play. A monkey could make a spirit shell macro and top meters.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  5. #45
    'cheap tactics' = using the best healers for the job. That we see way more hpalas, resto shamans, mistweavers and even resto druids than holy does say something. Top guilds "stacking" discs (usually 2) doesn't prevent them from bringing a holy priest over one of the other healers (assuming that they were as good, that is). Considering that normal modes are laughably easy and can be done easily irregardless of the power of the specs I do believe that blizzards primary balance focus actually is hms, sorry to break it for you.

    Good thing that you deem a spec 'easy to play' because you manage to top the meter with it doing normal modes:P. Playing disc perfectly (macroing spirit shell, lol) is pretty much impossible.

    Edit: Watched you play disc during a Lei-Shi fight and it's honestly just laughable that you call disc easy to play. You're basically doing something wrong every single gcd. A few examples could be misstiming spirit shell practically every time, barely using archangel/IF/penance, not using holy fire at all(you even had a period of close to 30 seconds where you just sat spamming smite, not even touching holy fire or penance). Using spells seemingly at random (just spamming PoH when there's no raid damage inc for the next 30 sec while your tanks almost die, suddenly deciding to smite and almost killing yourself during get away, I could just keep going). I honestly think that I could make a castsequence macro that does a better job playing disc than you.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-13 at 07:33 PM.

  6. #46
    You just lot all credibility by typing something as clueless as "and the presence of disc doesn't devalue holy at all in 25 mans, and barely in 10s".
    Disc currently devalues every single healer that doesn't have absorbs which is every other healer except holy paladins, the reason you don't see many holy priests is not because they're underpowered (hint: they're not at all) it's because disc is completely overpowered so every priest just respecs.

  7. #47
    Having a raid with purely discs isn't viable, there still needs to be other healers in the raid to complement them and there's nothing about holys design that makes them less suitable for this spot than the other healing specs, assuming that you have all the buffs covered the same applies for 10 mans. That's what I meant by that phrase. If holy was the best option once you have 2 (possibly 3) discs in a raid top guilds would simply recruit people playing it/reroll for it, instead they chose other specs to fill these spots, I wonder why?

  8. #48
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    Are you really expecting good representation of a spec when 1/3 - 1/2 of the healer slots are already filled by a spec of the same class when there are 4 other specs beyond holy priests to fill those remaining spots? Not to mention that priests started out the expansion weak and most people invested in aggressive progression knew that so if they had options they either rerolled from healing priests or benched them. The only reason to reroll when you'll be well behind in gear is because a spec is overpowered, so the only rerolls will be to disc. Holy priests that know what they are doing will definitely be recruited, but the only way you will not be asked to go disc is because the raid already has them. There is not an infinite number of healing priests out there with gear.

  9. #49
    I'm expecting to see a representation at least close to that of the other specs (if they were equally good that is). Rerolling (especially now that there's been no new content for quite some time) is really easy, hell most top raiders have several geared alts that they can change to if necessary, combined with the amount of top guilds compared to the amount of priests there might as well be an infinite amount of priests to fill these spots. Yes, if holy priests were the best option for the remaining spots you'd see them in top guilds. Holy being outright weaker than 2 of the other 5 healing specs (disc and pala) and arguably weaker than the remaining 3 (I could see an argument for druids being almost as shitty) does mean that they are underpowered.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Having a raid with purely discs isn't viable, there still needs to be other healers in the raid to complement them and there's nothing about holys design that makes them less suitable for this spot than the other healing specs, assuming that you have all the buffs covered the same applies for 10 mans. That's what I meant by that phrase. If holy was the best option once you have 2 (possibly 3) discs in a raid top guilds would simply recruit people playing it/reroll for it, instead they chose other specs to fill these spots, I wonder why?
    Because you are not gonna walk into a raid with a billion priests unless you are trying to cheese content in some way. Gear assimilation is the "natural" way content gets nerfed. Having a billion spirit cloth using players is one, going to make gearing them all up come at a slower pace, and two, possibly leave a wasted drop to a potential other class, thus prolonging the "nerfing" of content through stronger stats.

    This crap happens with Disc every tier, with every expansion since Wrath. Over and over. This thread is the same old song and dance. Disc is either "a shit spec", or way OP. Holy ends up looking way stronger then Disc when Disc is perceived as weak because like it has been stated, everyone migrates to Holy. When Disc is too strong, Holy looks like shit, regardless of whether it is or it isn't.

    I mean, there are so many examples of this flip flopping out there (with any class really). In tier 10 everyone thought shield spamming Disc was the only way to go, and yet, world first Paragon LK vid has footage of a HOLY priest in the raid. Smiting even. Yeah, there are Disc priests there too, but they were basically needed for Infest, good spec or not. Tier 11 rolls around, and Disc is "shit". Yet, heroic Nef world first vid has nothing but Disc priests in it (yeah, they were using Disc for Barrier, but all people ever obsess with is WoL numbers, not like, real world application). Holy was "shit" in tier 12, but world first Rag kill was 3 freaking healed by a Holy pally, Resto druid, and a Holy priest. Tier 13 Disc was supposed to be shit again, at least according to raidbots, and yet there are no shortage of Disc priests in world first kill vids for that tier.


    OP, play whatever you want. That is the long and the short end of it. Unless you are in a really, really serious progression guild, if you are really good, you can get away with whatever you want. Just don't start falling to the bottom of the meters, or you may need to start following the trendy wave of respeccing. Since you aren't interested in HCs, Holy is perfectly fine. My priest is in shit gear, and still manages to be at the top of the meters as Holy or Disc in LFR runs, so there is no issue there. You can usually run whatever you want even in a typical HC guild (a non cutting edge Top 100 guild), and as long as you are good, get away with it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 03:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    I'm expecting to see a representation at least close to that of the other specs (if they were equally good that is).
    You are not going to. As long as both specs share the exact same gear, there is no need to bring in a bunch more priests to run Holy when Resto druids do basically the same thing raid wise, and wear leather.

    Rerolling (especially now that there's been no new content for quite some time) is really easy, hell most top raiders have several geared alts that they can change to if necessary, combined with the amount of top guilds compared to the amount of priests there might as well be an infinite amount of priests to fill these spots.
    You greatly exaggerate this point. Yes, many of the ultra elite guilds run stupid amounts of alts. Those alts aren't always geared on a level as their mains though. And most of the the parses on WoL aren't coming from ultra elite guilds. Hell, many of those guilds don't release their combat logs at all.

    You ever armor any of the KIN raiders back during heroic Spine. I did. There was a discussion about it at the time. They stacked Sub rogues and Arcane mages. Most of the non main rogues and mages were hardly geared as well as their main counterparts.

    Yes, if holy priests were the best option for the remaining spots you'd see them in top guilds. Holy being outright weaker than 2 of the other 5 healing specs (disc and pala) and arguably weaker than the remaining 3 (I could see an argument for druids being almost as shitty) does mean that they are underpowered.
    As long as Holy priests, Resto shaman, and Resto druids offer close to the same damn thing, then there is no reason to risk wasted loot drops bringing in more priests. I am not actually suggesting Holy is not weak. For all I know, it is.

    What I am saying is that the data compiled to expresses that is hardly concrete. When 2 specs do the same exact thing, this is what happens when one of them is a little stronger. Happened to both Unholy and Frost in 4.1, and Fire and Arcane in 4.3 Unholy and Arcane both looked fine on WoL until Frost and Fire were buffed, and then they dropped to the bottom of the stack and looked horrible, because even though neither of them were nerfed, they both weren't the "top" anymore, so no one bothered with them.

  11. #51
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    If you are competent and know your class, it's easily viable. There are some people who don't know their class and choose to ignore the advice of others, even if it helps, for the sake of pride. If you want a quick learner on how specs are then I'd definitely recommend you check out noxxic.com or elitistjerks. I'm not sure if EJ is updated for mop for priests, I know some other classes/specs aren't up to date yet.
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  12. #52
    Because you are not gonna walk into a raid with a billion priests unless you are trying to cheese content in some way. Gear assimilation is the "natural" way content gets nerfed. Having a billion spirit cloth using players is one, going to make gearing them all up come at a slower pace, and two, possibly leave a wasted drop to a potential other class, thus prolonging the "nerfing" of content through stronger stats.
    Is largely irrelevant if you're gearing alts as well, which every top guild is. A holy priests don't bring any worthwhile advantage that a different healing spec does is practically what UP means.

    I mean, there are so many examples of this flip flopping out there (with any class really). In tier 10 everyone thought shield spamming Disc was the only way to go, and yet, world first Paragon LK vid has footage of a HOLY priest in the raid. Smiting even. Yeah, there are Disc priests there too, but they were basically needed for Infest, good spec or not. Tier 11 rolls around, and Disc is "shit". Yet, heroic Nef world first vid has nothing but Disc priests in it (yeah, they were using Disc for Barrier, but all people ever obsess with is WoL numbers, not like, real world application). Holy was "shit" in tier 12, but world first Rag kill was 3 freaking healed by a Holy pally, Resto druid, and a Holy priest. Tier 13 Disc was supposed to be shit again, at least according to raidbots, and yet there are no shortage of Disc priests in world first kill vids for that tier.
    But there is a shortage of holy priests in world first kills/top guilds atm, might be that they actually are, you know, bad.


    You greatly exaggerate this point. Yes, many of the ultra elite guilds run stupid amounts of alts. Those alts aren't always geared on a level as their mains though. And most of the the parses on WoL aren't coming from ultra elite guilds. Hell, many of those guilds don't release their combat logs at all.

    You ever armor any of the KIN raiders back during heroic Spine. I did. There was a discussion about it at the time. They stacked Sub rogues and Arcane mages. Most of the non main rogues and mages were hardly geared as well as their main counterparts.
    Not quite as well geared no, but close and easily geared enough to switch if the spec was stronger.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-13 at 08:15 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Is largely irrelevant if you're gearing alts as well, which every top guild is.
    I'm sorry. I didn't realize they changed the loot system so that you could give loot to players outside of the 10 or 25 involved in the kill.

    When a piece of loot drops on a kill, if you don't have a class that can use it, it is wasted. Pretty basic math.



    But there is a shortage of holy priests in world first kills/top guilds atm, might be that they actually are, you know, bad.
    That could be true. What I am saying is that the data you are using to come to your conclusion is incomplete. I gave all my reasons why.

    There are NO instances, that I am aware of (and I am aware of a lot) of world first kills that have excessive class stacking outside of cheesing the encounter.

    The mains are better geared because they are there for the progression kills. The alts are only there for cheesing stuff. No one is gonna bring in a million cloth users, that has half a brain about distributing gear. Its not gonna happen. Especially on 10s, where even though the sheer amount of gear dropped is in proportion with 25 man, you have less of a chance of actually dropping something for a specific class. Having a lock, a dpriest, an hpriest, an spriest, and a mage all fighting for loot means that not having resto shaman in there doing the same thing as the hpriests is going to be a wasted drop on mail.

  14. #54
    Holy priest is very good.
    Many here said to you that Disc is better. Well, Disc is not better. Disc is just using mechanics that disallow any other healer to do actual healing.
    Holy sits in its very own niche of superfast aoe raid health maximizer. No other healer in game can do this task as fast as Holy does. And you should know that Holy has a way more interesting gameplay, not just onebutton PoH+SS spam-to-win.
    And Holy is definitely NOT weaker than any other healers that do actual healing, not some absorb crap. Comparing to Holy, Rsham is crap in pve, so is Rdrood. Can't say anything about Monks, coz we don't have any, lol.

  15. #55
    I'm sorry. I didn't realize they changed the loot system so that you could give loot to players outside of the 10 or 25 involved in the kill.

    When a piece of loot drops on a kill, if you don't have a class that can use it, it is wasted. Pretty basic math.
    I'm sorry if it wasn't obvious to you, but the gear acquired from progressionkills is a very small part of the actual gear required (and there's practically always someone to make use of it in a 25 scenario, even if class stacking) and on farm kills you can simply mix up alts/mains to maximize the gear acquired (it's even prefered, to stack gear on your mains).

    That could be true. What I am saying is that the data you are using to come to your conclusion is incomplete. I gave all my reasons why.
    Since there's no way to actually 'prove' that a healing spec is UP, yes. It's hard to get much closer to proving it than having the lowest top parses (while considering factors skewing them, e.g. absorb classes always having inflated numbers) and having the lowest representation in a top guild though.

    The mains are better geared because they are there for the progression kills. The alts are only there for cheesing stuff. No one is gonna bring in a million cloth users, that has half a brain about distributing gear. Its not gonna happen. Especially on 10s, where even though the sheer amount of gear dropped is in proportion with 25 man, you have less of a chance of actually dropping something for a specific class. Having a lock, a dpriest, an hpriest, an spriest, and a mage all fighting for loot means that not having resto shaman in there doing the same thing as the hpriests is going to be a wasted drop on mail.
    It's still a factor, but a much smaller one than the actual power of the spec. Again, if holy priests can't do anything worthwhile better than a resto shaman (cause there are things a shaman brings that a hpriest doesn't) the spec is bad.

  16. #56
    Guys? You're offtopic. Re-read the OP... he's not on about progression kills. Jesus, people, the topic is "Are holy priests viable for LFR and regular 10s?" The answer is yes, they are along with every healer, really. They might not be optimal, but they'll work in a raid with decent players and when played well.

    Rehash, if you want to, the progression issue for the 16th time, but you know that you can actually go do other things that aren't as redundant, yes?

  17. #57
    Guys? You're offtopic. Re-read the OP... he's not on about progression kills. Jesus, people, the topic is "Are holy priests viable for LFR and regular 10s?" The answer is yes, they are along with every healer, really. They might not be optimal, but they'll work in a raid with decent players and when played well.
    and this was unanimously answered in page 1, so I guess it doesn't really matter if it's taken off topic now. I'd argue that locking this and starting a new thread is a bit redundant, at least considering that the OP got his answer and this is related to the thread.

    Rehash, if you want to, the progression issue for the 16th time, but you know that you can actually go do other things that aren't as redundant, yes?
    I'm a bit stressed out about my exam and arguing on the forum takes my mind off it, so it does have a purpose to me:P. If you find it redundant ignore the thread?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Yes if you are in a progression guild you are expected to play the best spec for the job, and this applies for every class. On most fights (at the current gear level) your lock isn't going to play destro, your hunter isn't going to play mm, your rogue isn't going to play sub. If you want to play the spec you enjoy you look for a casual guild, if you want to be in a progression guild you play the spec that's most suitable for the encounter at hand. And yes, if you willingly gimp your progression guild you're an ass and should expect to be kicked. As long as every spec has differences one will be superior on every encounter.
    Well then, thank god my progression guild is casual (and we still do fairly well, despite have 2 destro locks in the group).

  19. #59
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    I've been healing in Holy since the start of MoP. It's just my spec of choice, I find it more fun personally. In my 10 man there's me and a Disc priest on healing and we're pretty much the same on HPS and healing done. Honestly, as long as you put the time into learning the spec, it's just a viable as any other healing spec out there.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Holy priest is very good.
    Many here said to you that Disc is better. Well, Disc is not better. Disc is just using mechanics that disallow any other healer to do actual healing.
    Holy sits in its very own niche of superfast aoe raid health maximizer. No other healer in game can do this task as fast as Holy does. And you should know that Holy has a way more interesting gameplay, not just onebutton PoH+SS spam-to-win.
    And Holy is definitely NOT weaker than any other healers that do actual healing, not some absorb crap. Comparing to Holy, Rsham is crap in pve, so is Rdrood. Can't say anything about Monks, coz we don't have any, lol.

    Well, pure throughput disc is better, but I think holy can deffo perform well even on HC (it takes an effecient player for that though). Shammies aren't bad at PvE, they have a niche of great cds, earth shield, and otherwise they are great at stacked AoE healing. Their main problem, for me, are fights like Garalon where everyone's constantly moving and shammies get a bit lost (at least mediocre shammies). Druids are currently pretty bad at PvE as well, perhaps even worse than holy priests. Holy deffo needs more utility and removal of chakra to stand in the same line as other healers. Disc being op however has nothing to do with holy being weak

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