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  1. #1

    [Prot] T15 Set Bonuses

    I was so happy I thought it read "40% additonal" like if I had 3 HP I would have a 120% block chance but no I forgot the word chance so i dont know if thats good or terribly bad. Answers?

  2. #2
    Actually I am not really sure what the per holy power refers to. Whether it is the duration of the 40% block (3 HP gives 15 seconds of 40% block) or the multiplier of the 40% block (3 HP gives you 120% block). I'm more convinced it's the time because I think 120% block is over the cap. In any case, what I said before was this set may give more a rotation to your HP dumping (WoG, SoTR, SoTR, WoG, etc.) The 4 set is pretty good as well as divine protection is on a short cooldown. We'll see what the actual percentage is though, it may turn out to be something like another holy avenger.
    Last edited by monikasun88; 2013-01-10 at 09:55 PM.

  3. #3
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    We've had (are having?) a discussion about this on the end of the prot paladin guide. Although there is some confusion we believe currently it's going to be 5seconds per charge of HP because otherwise it would reinstate CTC which they wanted to abolish hence the 2 roll system. Even with 40% block chance on top of what we'll already have, there's a good chance we'll get hit by an attack still so it wouldn't be like that. However we really aren't sure, it's a bit hard to read but if you guys have any thoughts if you post them on there they can add to our lil discussion.
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    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    To me, the placement of the phrase makes it obvious. "by 40% for 5 seconds per Holy Power spent" means the duration is increased, whereas "by 40% per Holy Power spent for 5 seconds" would be the block chance being increased. Of course, Blizzard's tooltips are notoriously inconsistent, but it's also the logical conclusion.

  5. #5
    Yeah, I think its logical only the duration is affected.
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    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    What's the point of this set bonus? am I missing something or is it the worst set bonus you could imagine - 40% wont guarantee a block and even then, shield of the righteous already reduces physical damage - why not make it something like ' Using WoG grants you x% magical reduction for 3 seconds (similar to SotR) x = 50% of the physical % reduction SotR would grant. or just implement it into SotR?? numbers can be adjusted, but that would be an actual useful set bonus.

  7. #7
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    What's the point of this set bonus? am I missing something or is it the worst set bonus you could imagine - 40% wont guarantee a block and even then, shield of the righteous already reduces physical damage
    Assuming it's a static 40% and not 40% of our block chance which would really suck massive dick, it's going to more than double our block chance. It's not going to guarantee a block no, but we can have 15 seconds of this or 3 seconds of SHOTR. What is going to be best (assuming the set bonus stays as is) is dependent on a number of variables which we won't be able to map correctly until Theck runs it through matlab as to get a real number you'll have to do some advanced maths. Everyone can do the simple napkin math and it does appear to be a small benefit but then to get the best out of it, would you do it each time or would you weave SHOTR in there, and how many targets does it take? So many variables and so few people prepared to do partial differentiaton on it.
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    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Assuming it's a static 40% and not 40% of our block chance which would really suck massive dick, it's going to more than double our block chance. It's not going to guarantee a block no, but we can have 15 seconds of this or 3 seconds of SHOTR. What is going to be best (assuming the set bonus stays as is) is dependent on a number of variables which we won't be able to map correctly until Theck runs it through matlab as to get a real number you'll have to do some advanced maths. Everyone can do the simple napkin math and it does appear to be a small benefit but then to get the best out of it, would you do it each time or would you weave SHOTR in there, and how many targets does it take? So many variables and so few people prepared to do partial differentiaton on it.
    You'd also have to factor in the lost battle healer healing compared to the wog healing, but even if you get 40% block and not just 40% more, in my case as a haste stacking paladin that puts me on 70% block so still every 3rd attack getting through for a full hit.

    I'm sure it could be more damage reduction than SoTR but once again, we already have SotR for physical damage, it would be really really great to get some sort of mitigation for magical damage such as my idea, like for a fight such as Lei Shi, both SoTR as it is now and said set bonus would add nothing.

  9. #9
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Keeping in mind that when they initially announced the whole Active Mitigation for everyone system, our spell version was WoG combined with Bastion to give it some oompf. If they make the set bonus too powerful that on any fight with melee damage it becomes a case where you at least alternate, it's going to hurt us in terms of being able to recuperate after spell damage if anything due to less bastion stacks.
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    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    You'd also have to factor in the lost battle healer healing compared to the wog healing, but even if you get 40% block and not just 40% more, in my case as a haste stacking paladin that puts me on 70% block so still every 3rd attack getting through for a full hit.

    I'm sure it could be more damage reduction than SoTR but once again, we already have SotR for physical damage, it would be really really great to get some sort of mitigation for magical damage such as my idea, like for a fight such as Lei Shi, both SoTR as it is now and said set bonus would add nothing.
    It's hardly every 3rd. I have like 9% dodge, 20% parry raidbuffed. Add 5% of miss chance on top of that. That's 34% chance of not getting hit at all. And out of 66% hits that get through I would block 70%. That equals to 46,2% block chance if both rolls were on same table. So, I would have a CTC coverage (using old terms to make it more clear) of 80,2%. Meaning that only every 5th hit will go for full strength.

    Actually, I don't mind throwing WoG every 15 seconds for the buff. Prot rotation is quite boring.
    Last edited by Lethora; 2013-01-11 at 01:47 PM.
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  11. #11
    It seemed to me that the 2set isn't intended to be used rotationally, but maybe to lessen the long term damage from choosing to use wog to heal in an emergency. Maybe there would be certain, specific situations where having block is more beneficial than a short term, guaranteed dmg reduction. Maybe a multimob situation?

    Also, dat 4set + unbreakable spirit mmmmm

  12. #12
    It will certainly make Holy Avenger a whole lot more fun. At the moment it feels like I waste half the HoPo I generate during that phase.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninotchka View Post
    It will certainly make Holy Avenger a whole lot more fun. At the moment it feels like I waste half the HoPo I generate during that phase.
    They're fixing that by putting Shield of the Righteous onto the Sancity of Battle talent. It should prevent you from wasting any SotR from too fast HoPo generation.

    It will be nice to have both Shield of the Righteous up at the same time as a very high block chance. With Holy Avenger you should be able to keep both up on yourself for a good 20+ seconds which will be very nice. Seems OP to me honestly.

  14. #14
    I have mixed thoughts about this.

    Sounds good at first but then you ask yourself how often you use WoG over the course of your typical boss fight and also what dmg is going on around that time.

    Typically its used to counter some burst dmg on you or the raid, which tends to be in a short period of time and you will typically pop a damaging reducing cd at the same time, so 15secs of addition block chance isn't that great since in most cases it will happen after the burst, its obviously not bad but i doubt it will make a huge difference.

    For bosses with heavy predictable melee blows it could be good, but normally I expect the healers to get my to full before the blow and then I cover it with SoTR and then help the healers after.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith of Mazes View Post
    It seemed to me that the 2set isn't intended to be used rotationally, but maybe to lessen the long term damage from choosing to use wog to heal in an emergency. Maybe there would be certain, specific situations where having block is more beneficial than a short term, guaranteed dmg reduction. Maybe a multimob situation?

    Also, dat 4set + unbreakable spirit mmmmm
    Pretty much this, exactly, on both parts. I actually made the same post, near verbatim, in the sticky and on EJ.

    Adding to the list of situations, I think we can say tank swaps (WOG for 15 sec block, pool 5 HoPo, taunt, 2x ShotR...healers can take their sweet time adjusting) and anything that has a phase transition or pause in damage. Things like Feng when he runs to the other weapons; specifically on heroic, you can use WOG while healers are moving to new positions and the block will be up during the actual melee portions. Can use WOG when running out/back in on Elegon for tank swaps to keep the block going. Empress before picking up adds during retreats.

    All of that is to say that there are LOTS of ways to use the set bonus intelligently, but at its core, the 2pc bonus is simply a great QoL addition that lessens the "penalty" for using WOG, and rewards creative/smart play.

    Really want to see the values for the 4pc which proc HoPo generation to get a feel for how that will work as well.
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  16. #16
    I dont know if Im the only one, but when I saw this I thought about it for a few seconds and then thought it was amazing, it actually made me want to raid again sort of.
    I see it like this: When you use WoG or EF, you will get 40% additional block chance ontop of your already static block for 15 seconds if you use 3 holy power.
    Which in my case would make me what some people refer to as "unhittable", having my parry, dodge, block and chance to get missed over the cap for the criteria.
    And assuming I could use my abilities without interrupts to get my holy power going, I could keep this up while also getting a SotR inbetween every heal, without Holy Avenger.
    Of course by using the heal instead of a SotR you wont get the 3 sec dmg reduction, but instead you are unhittable, which in the long run serves you far better.

    I would love to see some testing done on this, if somehow possible. But I do hope this is the case and I do hope it stays that way if so, because it sounds awesome.
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  17. #17
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakvatten View Post
    Which in my case would make me what some people refer to as "unhittable", having my parry, dodge, block and chance to get missed over the cap for the criteria.
    "Unhittable" (i.e. CTC capped) isn't possible since MoP, unless you can reach either 100% combined avoidance or 100% block, because block was moved to a second roll. If you somehow have 60%+ block before factoring in the set bonus, though, more power to you. :P

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakvatten View Post
    Which in my case would make me what some people refer to as "unhittable", having my parry, dodge, block and chance to get missed over the cap for the criteria.
    They've changed the "condition for being unhittable" in MoP to stop shield tanks attaining it like they did in Cata. As I understand it, avoidance and block are not combined for a single roll to hit, but rather there are two rolls - one to see if you avoid it, and one to see if you block it. So the only way to be block capped would be to have a ton of mastery, which is not likely to happen next tier.

    However, I agree with you, 40% block is a lot of block and very nice for a 2 piece bonus. (Although a lot of the class set bonuses strike me as powerful next tier, so I would not say it's overpowered.)

    I hope it works out to be a quality of life thing to using wog rather than a rotational thing to maintain. Our "rotation" is complicated enough, in this age of active mitigation and raid fights that depend a lot on tank's implementation.

    EDIT: Rivin beat me to the punch.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    "Unhittable" (i.e. CTC capped) isn't possible since MoP, unless you can reach either 100% combined avoidance or 100% block, because block was moved to a second roll. If you somehow have 60%+ block before factoring in the set bonus, though, more power to you. :P
    Oh alright, thanks for clearing that up, I guess I've just been away for too long and missed that incredibly vital part. Haha..
    I guess I wont have to start raiding again afterall!

  20. #20
    yeah to me 40% seems a little high, I would imagine they will be lowering that value. Also I would imagine 40% every 5 sec per charge of holy power refers to the time value only.
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