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  1. #181
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I was simply giving another example, though Evo glyph in PvE will outheal the hell out of CS. 40% Heal from every Invo and 1%HP1 from RoP.
    In it's CURRENT form; while yes Glyph of Evo will outheal CS, w/ Invo it takes ~5 seconds of doing nothing but standing still. Yes of course it's possible but CS is instant and off the GCD so in some, not all, situations is better. RoP heal you'd have to stand in it for 30 seconds to gain the benefit and lets face it 30% of your health over 30 seconds isn't exactly amazing. It's something, but it's nothing special at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I disregarded it because there's no question about which is the better choice in PvE. If you really want me to go edit my post, I'll go ahead and do that if it will get you to stop complaining. If you really need an immediate 30% (15%) heal in PvE, then your healers really suck at their job/you suck at Ice Barrier or Temporal Shield. An extra Ice Block just doesn't compare to how helpful G Invis and Cauterize are.
    In comparison, it's on the levels of useless. If it was, say, a normal talent choice in the old talent trees, I wouldn't ever call it useless because there were other options. It's like comparing Blazing Speed to TS/IB. Yes, it in itself isn't useless, but compared to TS/IB, it's a fucking joke of a 'choice'.
    I'd actually be open to hear of an encounter where CS will save you better than Caut/G Invis
    The encounter that immediately springs to mind is HC Wind Lord. As you don't CC anything but the Amber Trappers you have all Blademasters up, and the Korthik strike hurts a lot. Even on 25M we see a trend that the same person gets targeted multiple times (up to 3 I've seen) in a row. GInvis and/or Cauterize will save you from the first, but Ice Block saves you from the first and second, meaning CR is saved/delayed and you're helping the healers save mana rather than having to heal you afterwards. Sure it's a niche and it's very specific but it's something.

    You could also argue it allows for more mistakes than Cauterize/GInvis compared to their comparatively long CDs on the "f*ck off I'm not dying" part of the talents. There is also the fact that if you Cauterize with a DoT on you (Wind Step, Parasite, etc.) your healers are gonna hate you. Temporal Shield is slightly buggy and Ice Barrier can only block so much. GInvis works well but again, only once every 2 minutes.

    I'm not trying to argue that CS is amazing and everyone should take it on every single fight; but as I recall GC said he wanted us to be switching talents from fight to fight and I think that T6 actually does that quite nicely as they all do well in different situations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    As I haven't looked into those fights yet, would you explain to me how it's better? I'm assuming you mean Frost Nova and Cone of Cold for those, but I'd like to hear what you have to say on it.
    Was talking about RoF, not CS here. It's simply amazing for add control considering the CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I wasn't expecting them to make you feel OP; that is DIRECTLY from Blizzard/Ghostcrawler's mouth(s), and they completely failed on that aspect with Mages (with the exception of L60).
    Because we should always trust what GC says?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    It was merely a suggestion. *shrug*
    I could do it, but this is a discussion forum and people are entitled to their opinion of course. I get annoyed when I see mass QQ when (in my opinion) things aren't that bad; but that's just my personality rather than a reflection on you as a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I haven't been ALWAYS unhappy though. BC and LK I had little to no complaints. Cata I was only annoyed because Fire was piss poor in Firelands and towards the end of Tier 11. Being forced to play Arcane was the most annoying thing ever, but I still enjoyed being a Mage overall. This has been the first time where I feel that my class is just being neglected, especially after months of beta testing and people sending in piles upon piles of criticism, especially towards their dislike of the L90 talents. Deep Freeze and Shatter being available to all speccs was another concern that Mages actually DISliked and would have liked to keep it in Frost, but they didn't listen. In fact, now that I've gotten to play with the L90 talents, I would have much preferred Blast Wave, Dragon's Breath, and Slow (the original beta L90 talents) over these choices, because damage would have been buffed across the board to compensate for not having them.
    While they might have been better in the sense we wouldn't feel as 'maintenancy' as we currently do; I bet there would be plenty of QQ about how our 90 talents feel insignificant compared to other classes', but sadly we can't know that for sure as they didn't make it past beta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Now had I been bitching since I made my Mage during 2.4.3, then yes, I'd actually agree with you (though my supposed egotistical, pessimistic, negative nancy version that you see me as probably wouldn't, but that is not the case. I'm only unhappy with how they are so far in MoP, though I do have high hopes with that Invocation Damage nerf/QoL buff to it)
    But (and I'm guessing here) it's probably just QoL issues (I count talents as QoL) that are bothering you? With exception to talents (where we won't see any major changes) we're still not that far into the expansion, things can (whether they will or not is a different matter) still change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    There's a difference between balancing benefits and drawbacks, and having "okay, you can have fairly good damage, but only if you stand still". No other class has such a penalty like Rune of Power/Invocation, and especially not as their L90 talent (again, that Blizzard/GC claim are supposed to "make you feel OP"). I do know of a few classes that have management like Invocation, like Inquisition (Ret Paladin), Slice and Dice (Rogue), Savage Roar (Feral Druid), but this is on an even worse level than Sniper Training [LK version] (Survival Hunter). If you don't remember what Sniper Training is, it was an old Survival talent that made you stand still for more damage. Notice how it's been long gone. Why? Because PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE IT NOR FIND IT FUN. So it begs the question why they revived such a horrible aspect about Hunters into Mages L90 talents.
    Many would argue that when standing still our damage isn't 'fairly good', it's very good.

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara'...100/14/60/avg/

    146*1.1 = 160; so we're (on average) 10% ahead of the class that's currently coming second on Garajal; then they are a further 10% ahead of the class in third; it's difficult to argue with those kind of numbers.
    Yes, this difference is largely due to Scorch weaving; but does Scorch weaving make up ~15K dps? Doubtful. Around the region of ~5K DPS gain, sure. Any more than that and it's getting a little unrealistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    All I'm asking is for a few tweaks that don't completely tank our DPS or make us ridiculously OP in PvP.
    And this is where you will run into the problem. Mages currently have too much mobility and ability to do damage on the move in PvP, Arcane being the only exception. Most Frost Mages aren't even casting Frostbolt at the moment in PvP, relying mainly on their ability to control, kite and put out insane burst with CDs popped without even casting a spell (all instant casts).
    Fire, again, has good mobility and ability to damage on the move in PvP. They sacrifice a small amount of survivability compared to Frost, but they can still CC Lock you down very well when they want to and while CM has been nerfed Pyro still hits like a truck and if you can CC a healer Combustion still puts out a lot of pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Thank you, though I do see how our conversation (our = Soulstrike and I) could easily be taken out of context, but I assure you, he was trying to get me to see how "good" Cold Snap is for PvE (to which he even said OP I think). I admit it has it's uses, but it's not worth it over the other choices (Blazing Speed suffers with the exact same issues, and the new change to it makes it even worse)
    Similarly to CS, Blazing Speed isn't utterly useless it's just the other two talents are better in a lot of situations. The one fight where personally I find Blazing Speed amazing is Tsulong; and that's because in Night Phase you're constantly taking damage so it's constantly available and that coupled with Blink gives you a lot of maneuverability and re-positioning power when it's needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I agree. Homogenization is what's been slowly killing this game since the 2nd half of LK, and even moreso in Cata. But, the core mechanic of "stand still to do DPS and move to do little to no DPS" is an old model that doesn't belong in today's WoW. Now, if Mages were #1 EVERY TIME, no matter what specc, on stand-still fights, THEN I could agree with you, because we're an artillery that doesn't move and does ridiculous damage. But, the problem is, we're not. Arcane KIND of is with scorch-weaving (which again I see as cheating in a sense because it wasn't intended), but it's not doing like 10-20% more than the next specc. "Doing competitive DPS" with the drawback of standing still isn't fair when you look at Warlocks "Doing competitive DPS" and not being forced to stand still at all.
    But top players always find a way to use talents to the maximum and minimize their movement, just moving smartly and moving the bare minimum required so that they can increase their uptime; if Mages really were full-on artillery they would be able to find a way to exploit that fact and just destroy everything in their wake - I mean take this tier for example. No one will (or should) argue that Arcane is good on the move; yet on a tier where people argue that there's "a lot" of movement, Arcane is still one of the best overall specs, Scorch weaving or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Yes, comparing talent A of class B to talent X of class Y is generally bad. When it's a core mechanic of a ROLE (and not a class), then it's a bit different.
    It's actually even in terms of casters and being able to DPS on the move; Warlocks, Shamans and Hunters being fairly mobile and SPriests, Boomkins and Mages being less so.
    It's not really a "core" mechanic of the role IMO. It's a core mechanic of Melee DPS, and even then it's only given the condition that they are within range of the boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    MSV: Stone Guards, Spirit Kings, Elegon [mostly during P3], Will
    HoF: Vizier [Attenuation], Blade Lord, Garalon, Wind Lord [Depending on RNG; the Corrosive Resin and Wind Bombs], Amber-Shaper [RNG of the little guys that spawn/P3 Heroic?], Empress [If you have Cry of Terror/P3]
    ToES: Tsulong, Lei Shi [only during Get Away]
    Stone Guards is dependent for most people. If you don't break Jasper Chains and you're paired with a ranged class I find it very easy to stand still and nuke, with the only times where I have to move being when I'm over an Amethyst Pool or a trap. Even on HC our RL doesn't ask those who are chained to do tiles. I realise that this makes it slightly RNG but RNG works both ways.

    Spirit Kings is only really movement for Qiang, and even then if your tank turns the boss for Annihilate you don't even have to move very much. HC is a different story but with correct positioning isn't actually that bad.

    Elegon P3 isn't a great deal of movement unless you're unlucky with Lightning Pool RNG.

    While Blade Lord is heavy movement I left it out purely because when you move for Unseen, no one can target the boss and Blade Tempest isn't really an issue as you can Blink back to your Rune and Scorch; yes Warlocks/Hunters/Shamans will do more damage during this particular phase but overall it's not that bad a fight for Mages.

    Amber Shaper I don't find I'm moving a lot. Even if I have the add on me I nuke it from within my Rune.

    Empress is actually very much RNG-related. I've had entire fights where I've not moved once and I've had fights where I've had to move shitloads; but as it's RNG I (again) didn't include it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Those are "a LOT of movement" fights in my book. Stone Guards, Spirit Kings, Will, Garalon (when kiting) and Tsulong are among the worst because they require constant replacing of RoP.
    Of that list Spirit Kings and Tsulong are the only two fights where I find I'm replacing RoP more often than is necessary; Garalon if I'm kiting I take Incanter's and the others are RNG-based movement so can go both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Btw, a lot of movement != constantly moving. It means "the more times you use your WADQE keys, the more 'movement' is involved", in a Mage's eyes, because having to tap one movement key instantly ruins your Invocation, and probably getting you out of your rune.
    Agree, but Rune is larger than most people give it credit it for; you can stand on the very edge of it and still gain the buff. It actually allows you to dodge a lot of abilities while standing inside it.
    Smart movement is a very important thing to take into account as well, as some players would 'panic-blink' the second they are CLOSE to Fire, forcing re-positioning and putting Rune down again. They don't often think that they could stay within Rune and move a few yards and remain inside it. I would also comment on keyboard turning/moving but that's elitist and a bit harsh as well.
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2013-01-16 at 10:15 AM.

  2. #182
    Please don't report people for disagreeing with you, it is against the forum rules. Please don't report the same post multiple times, that is also against forum rules. Discussion does not mean two people who agree with each other can hijack a thread and simply talk to each other, that's called a filibuster. Secondly, can we please stop bringing Lhivera into discussion? He is not a dev, he simply posts in green text on the forums. He isn't our god, our overlord, and isn't Blizzard's main source of balance. Be constructive in the new year!

  3. #183
    Bloodsail Admiral Cryonic's Avatar
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    I think it's bad that so much of the adjustments are done around 4-set bonus right now. Will I have to wear 4 set of tier at all time to be a valid class? If I never get my 4th piece my class will be horribly underpowered? A lil confused about this..
    ..:: Lvl 90's: 50 ::..

  4. #184
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryonic View Post
    I think it's bad that so much of the adjustments are done around 4-set bonus right now. Will I have to wear 4 set of tier at all time to be a valid class? If I never get my 4th piece my class will be horribly underpowered? A lil confused about this..
    Resilience will fix it, part two.
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  5. #185
    Dreadlord
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    Not crushing anything, because I was asking for your logs, not the luckiest guys under the sun. Or do we start a debate on what we´re capable of in baseball and post videos from Mickey Mantle? Yes arcane has the highest potential output, because of scorch weaving and mastery stacking.

    And if you post to backup your theories, then lets bring them in a right context:

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara%.../14/60/median/

    Arcane clearly overpowerd with 16k average ahead!

    Now lets have another look at your (not yours) example:

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade.../14/60/median/

    Wait? What happend there? From 16k ahead to 7k behind? What happend? 100 guys f**ked up their rotation? Or is some movement involved?

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Grand.../14/60/median/

    8k average behind


    As Didactic already stated, those guys playing with scorch weaving, which will be nerfed in 5.2. And DPS doesn´t really matter to me, if the playstyle feels like a burden.

    Another point is, ever watched arcane mage streams/vids from hardcore progressing guilds? They could really stand there like a glas cannon. Blade Lord? Wherever they land they place their rune and you have to get out! Stone Guard? We´re chained, come to me or die! If you want to do that damage as the top parsed one, you have to play like a real scumbag.

    Note: My intend is not to offend, my intend is to debate
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-01-16 at 10:29 AM.

  6. #186
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    The encounter that immediately springs to mind is HC Wind Lord. As you don't CC anything but the Amber Trappers you have all Blademasters up, and the Korthik strike hurts a lot. Even on 25M we see a trend that the same person gets targeted multiple times (up to 3 I've seen) in a row. GInvis and/or Cauterize will save you from the first, but Ice Block saves you from the first and second, meaning CR is saved/delayed and you're helping the healers save mana rather than having to heal you afterwards. Sure it's a niche and it's very specific but it's something.

    You could also argue it allows for more mistakes than Cauterize/GInvis compared to their comparatively long CDs on the "f*ck off I'm not dying" part of the talents. There is also the fact that if you Cauterize with a DoT on you (Wind Step, Parasite, etc.) your healers are gonna hate you. GInvis works well but again, only once every 2 minutes.

    I'm not trying to argue that CS is amazing and everyone should take it on every single fight; but as I recall GC said he wanted us to be switching talents from fight to fight and I think that T6 actually does that quite nicely as they all do well in different situations.
    Wait, but you still have Ice Block if you didn't take CS, so I don't get how Cold Snap protects you more from the Korthik Strike. Not to mention, G Invis and Ice Block require you to hit them ahead of time, while Caut is passive and the lowest cooldown, plus you still have Ice Block anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Because we should always trust what GC says?
    Oh trust me, I find the most corrupted lawyers and politicians to be more trustworthy than that lying shit-sack nowadays, though it baffles me as to why he opens his mouth to begin with when he really means it's the opposite of what he says.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    I could do it, but this is a discussion forum and people are entitled to their opinion of course. I get annoyed when I see mass QQ when (in my opinion) things aren't that bad; but that's just my personality rather than a reflection on you as a person.
    Nyeh. Dunno what else I can do when I'm on the fence for quitting. I really don't want to, but if things don't change, I really can't bear to pay for being bored much longer. The only thing keeping me is the raid fights and my guild at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    While they might have been better in the sense we wouldn't feel as 'maintenancy' as we currently do; I bet there would be plenty of QQ about how our 90 talents feel insignificant compared to other classes', but sadly we can't know that for sure as they didn't make it past beta.
    Yes, we'd have shitty CC talents for our L90 talents, but then I'd just remind myself that I could be a lot worse off (like Death Knights...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    But (and I'm guessing here) it's probably just QoL issues (I count talents as QoL) that are bothering you? With exception to talents (where we won't see any major changes) we're still not that far into the expansion, things can (whether they will or not is a different matter) still change.
    Yes, coupled with the fact that we're mediocre on the damage, but that's not the main issue. If our QoL was fairly high but our damage was mediocre, I honestly wouldn't mind that much because I'd be having so much fun. Because not only do we have really poor QoL but we also have meh damage (Scorch-weaving isn't included here), it really makes me wonder "why the fuck am I bothering with Mage when Warlocks have great damage and really good QoL?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Many would argue that when standing still our damage isn't 'fairly good', it's very good.

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara'...100/14/60/avg/

    146*1.1 = 160; so we're (on average) 10% ahead of the class that's currently coming second on Garajal; then they are a further 10% ahead of the class in third; it's difficult to argue with those kind of numbers.
    Yes, this difference is largely due to Scorch weaving; but does Scorch weaving make up ~15K dps? Doubtful. Around the region of ~5K DPS gain, sure. Any more than that and it's getting a little unrealistic.
    Please link a fight that isn't fucked by phasing issues. Gara'jal isn't really an accurate one to link. Also, certain classes scale better with secondary stats. Fire for example scales really well (though anyone raiding seriously nowadays doesn't bother with Fire anymore).

    5k is still a huge change, though when you scale the DPS up to the world top, then the "5k" scale will definitely rise.

    Regardless, we're only looking at Scorch-weaving. Affliction still beats Barrage Mages, plus Affliction gets to move and DPS as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    And this is where you will run into the problem. Mages currently have too much mobility and ability to do damage on the move in PvP, Arcane being the only exception. Most Frost Mages are even casting Frostbolt at the moment in PvP, relying mainly on their ability to control, kite and put out insane burst with CDs popped without event casting a spell.
    Fire, again, has good mobility and ability to damage on the move in PvP. They sacrifice a small amount of survivability compared to Frost, but they can still CC Lock you down very well when they want to and while CM has been nerfed Pyro still hits like a truck and if you can CC a healer Combustion still puts out a lot of pressure.
    See, it's reasons like this that I just wanted to keep my stance on PvE only while ignoring (but not completely disregarding) PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Similarly to CS, Blazing Speed isn't utterly useless it's just the other two talents are better in a lot of situations. The one fight where personally I find Blazing Speed amazing is Tsulong; and that's because in Night Phase you're constantly taking damage so it's constantly available and that coupled with Blink gives you a lot of maneuverability and re-positioning power when it's needed.
    Hmmm, another fight where I might try a different talent, only because there is no large amount of incoming damage on Tsulong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    But top players always find a way to use talents to the maximum and minimize their movement, just moving smartly and moving the bare minimum required so that they can increase their uptime; if Mages really were full-on artillery they would be able to find a way to exploit that fact and just destroy everything in their wake - I mean take this tier for example. No one will (or should) argue that Arcane is good on the move; yet on a tier where people argue that there's "a lot" of movement, Arcane is still one of the best overall specs, Scorch weaving or not.
    If there were Barrage Mages pulling top numbers on movement fights, I could see your point. Sadly, this is not the case.

    Also, are we just going to completely disregard our other two speccs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    It's actually even in terms of casters and being able to DPS on the move; Warlocks, Shamans and Hunters being fairly mobile and SPriests, Boomkins and Mages being less so.
    It's not really a "core" mechanic of the role IMO. It's a core mechanic of Melee DPS, and even then it's only given the condition that they are within range of the boss.
    But the only difference is that SPriests and Boomkins don't need to deal with shitty mechanics where you get doubly fucked from movement. There is no Invo/RoP to worry about with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Elegon P3 isn't a great deal of movement unless you're unlucky with Lightning Pool RNG.
    Or you're a Frost Mage doing 95% of the AoE and unable to hit them until they enter the ring due to Heroic's LoS bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Agree, but Rune is larger than most people give it credit it for; you can stand on the very edge of it and still gain the buff. It actually allows you to dodge a lot of abilities while standing inside it.
    Smart movement is a very important thing to take into account as well, as some players would 'panic-blink' the second they are CLOSE to Fire, forcing re-positioning and putting Rune down again. They don't often think that they could stay within Rune and move a few yards and remain inside it. I would also comment on keyboard turning/moving but that's elitist and a bit harsh as well.
    All this talk about rune and no love for Fire/Frost Invocation users

    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    And if you post to backup your theories, then lets bring them in a right context:

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara%.../14/60/median/

    Arcane clearly overpowerd with 16k average ahead!
    Gara'jal is a moot fight to rank/WoL because of phasing issues. Not everyone is fairly being put onto logs.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-01-16 at 10:28 AM.

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  7. #187
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Wait, but you still have Ice Block if you didn't take CS, so I don't get how Cold Snap protects you more from the Korthik Strike. Not to mention, G Invis and Ice Block require you to hit them ahead of time, while Caut is passive and the lowest cooldown, plus you still have Ice Block anyways.
    My bad, derped really f*cking hard. It's early morning, I'm tired and work sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Oh trust me, I find the most corrupted lawyers and politicians to be more trustworthy than that lying shit-sack nowadays, though it baffles me as to why he opens his mouth to begin with when he really means it's the opposite of what he says.
    If what he says makes you continue to pay for the game he's developing he's doing his job

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Nyeh. Dunno what else I can do when I'm on the fence for quitting. I really don't want to, but if things don't change, I really can't bear to pay for being bored much longer. The only thing keeping me is the raid fights and my guild at this point.
    As I said, my reflections aren't necessarily against you as a person it's more against the whole 'OMG WE'RE IN A BAD PLACE WE'RE DOOMED AAAAH' attitude.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Yes, we'd have shitty CC talents for our L90 talents, but then I'd just remind myself that I could be a lot worse off (like Death Knights...)
    Wouldn't stop the constant stream of QQ and many would be asking why the hell Warlocks get this but we don't, we're a pure DPS class our 90 talents should boost our DPS somehow blah blah blah. People will always find something wrong no matter what happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Yes, coupled with the fact that we're mediocre on the damage, but that's not the main issue. If our QoL was fairly high but our damage was mediocre, I honestly wouldn't mind that much because I'd be having so much fun. Because not only do we have really poor QoL but we also have meh damage (Scorch-weaving isn't included here), it really makes me wonder "why the fuck am I bothering with Mage when Warlocks have great damage and really good QoL?"
    Re-roll 'lock then haha. Nah I would argue against our damage being 'mediocre' but I think we know that I was always going to say that anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Please link a fight that isn't fucked by phasing issues. Gara'jal isn't really an accurate one to link. Also, certain classes scale better with secondary stats. Fire for example scales really well (though anyone raiding seriously nowadays doesn't bother with Fire anymore).
    I linked an average of the top 100 parses and anyone raiding in a guild where they're aiming for top 100 will sync logs so there are no phasing issues. It's impossible to get a top 100 rank on Garajal without that. Trust me, despite my earlier derp I did factor that one in ^^.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    5k is still a huge change, though when you scale the DPS up to the world top, then the "5k" scale will definitely rise.
    Oh, sorry, no doubt 5K is a MASSIVE increase, but even without the 5K based on Garajal if we're standing still we'd still be top - that was my point, sorry for being unclear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Regardless, we're only looking at Scorch-weaving. Affliction still beats Barrage Mages, plus Affliction gets to move and DPS as well.
    Affliction is almost as broken as current Arcane (Scorch weave). Should hopefully get some well-deserved nerfs in 5.2. Can hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    See, it's reasons like this that I just wanted to keep my stance on PvE only while ignoring (but not completely disregarding) PvP.
    Sadly the game has to be balanced around both for Blizzard to cater to a larger audience.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Hmmm, another fight where I might try a different talent, only because there is no large amount of incoming damage on Tsulong.
    Only reason Blazing Speed was even considered on this fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    If there were Barrage Mages pulling top numbers on movement fights, I could see your point. Sadly, this is not the case.

    Also, are we just going to completely disregard our other two speccs?
    Not disregarding the other two; Fire performs comparatively well on movement fights, Frost is kind of in a 'meh' area overall and I haven't played it a great deal this expansion so I don't like commenting on stuff I'm not that sure on.
    Barrage Arcane barely exists at the moment purely because of Scorch Weaving, so it's limiting the data available. If stack camping gets removed in 5.2 we'll see how it plays out but I still maintain that it wouldn't be THAT bad. Scorch mana nerf % in 5.2 will change that as it f*cks Arcane hard in the ass but oh well. We'll see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    But the only difference is that SPriests and Boomkins don't need to deal with shitty mechanics where you get doubly fucked from movement. There is no Invo/RoP to worry about with them.
    They have different issues to worry about, though. Due to various abilities/talents they still have to watch their positioning carefully on certain fights AND their single-target damage is far, far behind ours as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Or you're a Frost Mage doing 95% of the AoE and unable to hit them until they enter the ring due to Heroic's LoS bullshit.
    Hmm, not as limited to movement with Invoc as you are with RoP; but fair enough. I can understand how Invoc can be a bitch on Elegon but such is life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    All this talk about rune and no love for Fire/Frost Invocation users
    5.2 changes currently are all about how Arcane can apparently still stack camp

  8. #188
    Just for my own sanity...can you guys stop multiquoting a post and responding to each individual part of it? Bein succinct and comprehensive is far more impressive than being extremely verbose...and it's easier to moderate. Also, when one post is the length of most threads, then it's time to dial back on that keyboard a bit.

  9. #189
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'm very confused.

    If 5.2 goes live as-is, the mage class has no purpose. Already on live it has no purpose.

    Why would you ever want a mage over a warlock? And the success of every heroic encounter I can think of is more likely with a warlock.

    Mages have lost all significant utility, our glass-cannon numbers, we have no damage reduction so we're the first to die to AoE pulses and stress healers out, and our level 90 talents aren't remotely fun or interesting-- they're DPS upkeep talents that chop up the momentum of a rotation.

    Hate needs to stop being so focused on us because of PvP, and our class needs to feel a bit less broken in a bad way.

  10. #190
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I'm very confused.

    If 5.2 goes live as-is, the mage class has no purpose. Already on live it has no purpose.

    Why would you ever want a mage over a warlock? And the success of every heroic encounter I can think of is more likely with a warlock.

    Mages have lost all significant utility, our glass-cannon numbers, we have no damage reduction so we're the first to die to AoE pulses and stress healers out, and our level 90 talents aren't remotely fun or interesting-- they're DPS upkeep talents that chop up the momentum of a rotation.

    Hate needs to stop being so focused on us because of PvP, and our class needs to feel a bit less broken in a bad way.
    People say we're fine because they take ONE look at Arcane and are like "OMG UR DAMAGE IS OP FKN OP MAGES!", when they don't realize it's because of Scorch-Weaving.

    If 5.2 were to hit tomorrow, every Mage would be forced to go Warlock or get benched until hotfixes or another patch hit.

    Again, that's a DPS issue that concerns me if utility/QoL doesn't improve because we provide no other benefit than DPS and we can't do it very well on the go.

    (To make sure there's no misunderstanding: I'm fine if my DPS is middle of the pack. I don't need to be the top DPS. But, my problem is when I bring nothing else to a raid and my QoL is just god awful, THEN my DPS being mediocre is a huge concern, which it already is unless you play Scorch-Weave. I want to play Mage; I don't want to be forced to swap classes)

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  11. #191
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    We can't survive pulse AoE because we're the only class without a way to reduce damage. We can absorb some with ice barrier, completely sacrifice DPS with ice block, or cauterize up to some amount of it.

    In every other situation, though, which is nearly every other situation, because of not having any innate damage reduction we die to things no other class does.

    This 'glass cannon' design is fine, but not if our damage doesn't reflect it. Because of PvP balancing we're finding ourselves no longer glass cannons, just glass.

    I play a mage for thematic reasons, I just love the class and I'm not rerolling for progression. However, with warlock damage reduction being buffed, damage being higher across the board, and far more versatility and flavor across specs-- why bring mage to a raid?

    I don't particularly care if I'm the highest DPS, or the best at surviving, or bring the most utility. What does bug me is an entire raid not getting healthstones if I am there instead of a lock, healers having to have special rotations on Shek'zeer because mages take so much more pulse AoE, for taking a huge hit in DPS to evocate myself simply for healing, not even to renew my buff.

    This just isn't working. This entire class design isn't working. Each spec has horrible scaling issues, which will need to be addressed each patch, thus changing how we feel through our ideal DPS rotations per fight. Our gearing will constantly change as well. Our level 90 talents being DPS upkeep talents will forever plague us having to be the ones who move and actually do mechanics in a fight.

    Don't call out for a nerf, or a buff. We need a complete gut & redo.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    We can't survive pulse AoE because we're the only class without a way to reduce damage. We can absorb some with ice barrier, completely sacrifice DPS with ice block, or cauterize up to some amount of it.

    In every other situation, though, which is nearly every other situation, because of not having any innate damage reduction we die to things no other class does.

    This 'glass cannon' design is fine, but not if our damage doesn't reflect it. Because of PvP balancing we're finding ourselves no longer glass cannons, just glass.

    I play a mage for thematic reasons, I just love the class and I'm not rerolling for progression. However, with warlock damage reduction being buffed, damage being higher across the board, and far more versatility and flavor across specs-- why bring mage to a raid?

    I don't particularly care if I'm the highest DPS, or the best at surviving, or bring the most utility. What does bug me is an entire raid not getting healthstones if I am there instead of a lock, healers having to have special rotations on Shek'zeer because mages take so much more pulse AoE, for taking a huge hit in DPS to evocate myself simply for healing, not even to renew my buff.

    This just isn't working. This entire class design isn't working. Each spec has horrible scaling issues, which will need to be addressed each patch, thus changing how we feel through our ideal DPS rotations per fight. Our gearing will constantly change as well. Our level 90 talents being DPS upkeep talents will forever plague us having to be the ones who move and actually do mechanics in a fight.

    Don't call out for a nerf, or a buff. We need a complete gut & redo.
    Fire actually has great scaling on Crit and Haste, as well as Int/SP. Just bad with Mastery.

    Besides that though, everything you said is true.

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  13. #193
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Fire actually has great scaling on Crit and Haste, as well as Int/SP. Just bad with Mastery.

    Besides that though, everything you said is true.
    Sorry I didn't present my argument well enough. You're right - the scaling problem is something I see from both directions. Fire does scale well with crit and haste, but is its mastery interesting? Similarly, frost scaling is nonexistent and requires set bonuses to even make the spec viable-- next tier it will scale again through its set bonuses because the raw stats for frost are rather pathetic. Arcane scales very well in its own contained atmosphere. Some things help scale specs far too much, while other things simply don't scale at all. Overall, fire scales too much, which is why the best solution they had was to make the spec un-fun for thousands of raiders. Frost scales too little, which is why the best solution they had made us too powerful in PvP, and has been compensated with normalization techniques like removing WE Freeze, which is a situational mega-nerf (good frost mages position and time the freeze to maximize FoF procs). Arcane's scaling is steady and mostly fine, but there is very little itemization direction as the mage-problems of the class cause arcane to be frustrating.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    exactly what fight require "LOT of movement" in your book?? only ones i can think of is will,garalon

    only bad mages with >90% rop uptime will get replace derp
    Only bad mages? lol, there are many logs, top world logs >90% RoP uptime...

    As for movement...

    There are/were many encounters requiring or required lots of movement. In this tier, there are many pointed on previous posts. I won’t go further since there isn’t a patchwork fight except Garajal.

    But, don’t forget WoW raiding has not begun in MoP. Starting in Naxx 1.0 back in Vanilla, many fights required a lot or some kind of movement and the ability to fully dps on the move would be perfect. On top of my mind:

    1. Thaddius
    2. Kaelthas Sunstrider (especially when thaladred was up);
    3. Leotheras the Blind;
    4. Lady Vashj, if you were kiting;
    5. Supremus;
    6. Archimonde;
    7. Illidan (RNG based I know but you had to move to clear parasites)
    8. Felmyst;
    9. Kiljaeden (funny thing is: looks like Kiljaeden wasn’t so cunning last time we met him. After all, he was rooted in place - was him using Root, ops, Rune of Power?
    10. Mimiron – Firefighter
    11. General Vezax
    12. Yogg-saron (mostly phase 2)
    --- Can’t say a word about ToC and ICC cause I was retired from WoW ---
    13. Valiona and Theralion;
    14. Magmaw (depending on strat, but still…)
    15. Omnitron defense system (heroic);
    16. Atramedes (both normal and heroic);
    17. Maloriak (heroic);
    18. Alakir (both normal and heroic)
    19. Shannox (mostly from traps/RNG based, but movement…)
    20. Bethilac (heroic)
    21. Ragnaros (both on normal and heroic);

    Also, some of you are underestimating the ability to fully dps on the move. More than QoL, it allows more room for error (or for dealing with RNG). GC himself said movement should be a challenge for all classes, especially ranged dps. A challenge, but not for warlocks* and hunters? That’s my point. If they want ranged dps to deal with movement just remove ALL dps/cast on the move shit from the game!

    I won’t argue on level 90 talents. If you find em fun, good for you. If you think they fit the mage class, such a pity. As for me, always though mage was a slippery class, with plenty of tools favoring movement and escape. Never thought we would be balanced (mechanic and dps wise) around being rooted or immobile for x seconds.
    *And NO, there is NO penalty from KJC if you know how to use it.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    snip
    uhhh the fights you mentioned in cata are stand still nuke boss (except VnT,omnitron) wont say thing about tbc cause i didnt paly back then

    i agree with you that its bit silly blizz gave warlock/hunters move on cast abilities but its something we just gotta deal with it (warlock had more attention this expansion when it came to class changes), but i dont recall myself moving around alot before rop came out i stood still most of the time (get out of fire ofc >_>)

  16. #196
    Surprise surprise, no Mage changes in the new build >_>

  17. #197
    Honestly, I don't understand the comment about Mage survivability Akraen, I am the only Mage in my guild and have the best survivability period! Ice Barrier giving a 100k absorb on a 25sec CD, Ice Block, Cautarize and a 40% self heal in 5 secs if i really need it which is gonna be 20% in about 2 secs in the new Tier. Do we sometimes have to sacrifice some DPS for this? Yes... But we do a lot more alive than dead. We have more Damage Reduction / Mitigation / Self heals than most other classes, this 'Glass Cannon' talk is crap man.

    As for Damage, I decided not to move to Arcane when the big post 5.1 nerf came out. Yes I struggled mid-pack for a few weeks until I geared up better but I'm at a place now with my crit and haste ratings where I top the meters nearly every fight. Yes I had to change my setup, dropped the 4 set and went back to 2, finally got essence of terror for great combustions but our damage is not as bad as most people on this forum make it out to be. If you time things correctly Fire can be very competitive still.

    As for the comments that Arcane is goosed now if 5.2 hits tomorrow, this is also crap. Scorch weaving is just replaced by Invo weaving to stay above 90%, the 3-4 globals scorch used to get back to full are now replaced by a 2 second cast that puts you back to full, the damage of the 3-4 scorches is completely negated by the extra AB you do at 6 stacks in addition to the Evo in the same amount of time it takes to do the current 3-4 Scorches, it's actually a DPS increase!

    I too got pissed after the huge fire nerf, not at the combustion damage but the CM one however we just get on with it. Fire is now a mid DPS class and a good Fire Mage can be top 2-3 every fight, no GMs are dropping players than can still finish all fights top 2-3, they are not gonna bring 6 Locks or 6 Monks etc, class balance is still needed for buffs etc and if you are being dropped, you probably aren't playing as we'll as you can.

    I used to love reading these forums everyday, I really did but now everything I log on all I see is people bitching and moaning with absolutely no constructive feedback or ideas to offer. The same people every time also... Seriously guys. If you are that unhappy playing Mages, re-roll, gg, thx! I really can't get over how much people complain, going on about brining Locks over us etc, have you seen Shadow Priests right now? If any caster class needs a buff it's them, certainly not Mages.

    Just on last point, lilbro, there was a Mage update for latest patch, 2 set has changed, it's basically now wind song.... Not a great change IMO, I think going back to a static DMG increase would be better as a 2 set, the new tier now gives very underwhelming 2 and 4 set for Mages but either way, I bet we'll be fine.

  18. #198
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lillbrorsan View Post
    Surprise surprise, no Mage changes in the new build >_>
    While I'm saddened by that, I LOVE our 2PT15 change. Glad they didn't gut it completely and instead made it way better.

    1,800 Mastery, Haste, AND Crit over 5,100 Haste? Sign me up!

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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Pspsully View Post
    Fire is now a mid DPS class and a good Fire Mage can be top 2-3 every fight

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Pspsully View Post
    I used to love reading these forums everyday, I really did but now everything I log on all I see is people bitching and moaning with absolutely no constructive feedback or ideas to offer. The same people every time also... Seriously guys. If you are that unhappy playing Mages, re-roll, gg, thx! I really can't get over how much people complain, going on about brining Locks over us etc, have you seen Shadow Priests right now? If any caster class needs a buff it's them, certainly not Mages.
    Sorry Pspsully but this whole thread really has not been about our DPS or where we stand on the charts, its more of a class identity issue. And really we do need the same kind of love that was given to warlocks at this point. The mage class has lost its flair if you look at all the other classes in comparison. If I had to start wow right now and make one of each class to try, the mage wouldn't make it to my short list and yet it is my main.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pspsully View Post
    As for the comments that Arcane is goosed now if 5.2 hits tomorrow, this is also crap. Scorch weaving is just replaced by Invo weaving to stay above 90%, the 3-4 globals scorch used to get back to full are now replaced by a 2 second cast that puts you back to full, the damage of the 3-4 scorches is completely negated by the extra AB you do at 6 stacks in addition to the Evo in the same amount of time it takes to do the current 3-4 Scorches, it's actually a DPS increase!
    This type of arcane gameplay will be hot patched out of the game if its even close to being viable as scorch weaving is now. Time and time again blizzard have said that they do not want arcane played this way. And when that happens where do we go from here? I suppose fire but most of the mages who are arcane now that would mean a total re-gear.

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