I don't think you're quite getting the picture. All things being equal; who would you bring? A mage with 100k dps with mana cakes, or a shadow priest 100k dps but can pop a GCD and cause raid wide healing by dealing damage? Granted, this is almost never the case... I'm speaking from a purely hypothetical standpoint. If the goal is for hybrid classes to do the same damage as a pure dps class without "hybrid tax" then that pure dps class needs to provide some hybrid-esque utility for the raid. Period.
A mage's ability to consistently mass resurrect after wipes is definitely handy!
We also provide strong crowd control for fights where that is appropriate (Will, Wind Lord though it's only really relevant on Normal, RoF is always handy on Lei Shi)
Crit is a little rarer, but still common as it's only brought by 9 out of 34 speccs: Mage (All), Monk (Windwalker), Druid (Feral and Guardian), and Hunter (All; reliant on pet)
So yeah, those buffs aren't all that rare... Food? Really? WE BRING FOOD. AMAZING. YOU CAN ALSO BUY SAID FOOD. Swizzle, I'm rather disappointed you would use such a useless point.
Time Warp is also brought by 7 speccs: Mage (All), Shaman (All), Hunter (BM; reliant on pet).
So with the exception of Time Warp, especially if you have a BM Hunter or Shaman, we bring literally nothing to a raid.
Let's see what unique stuff other speccs bring, and I won't even include the ACTUAL rare buffs and nonsense points (Food... Really, Swizzle? I expected better)
[Note: Anything *starred* isn't unique, but it's on the same line as Time Warp. Also, I'm going through spell lists to remind myself; I may miss something. I'm also NOT including Healer only stuff, as it's intended that every healer has raidwide cooldowns]
Anti-Magic Zone (All - Talented) - -75% Magic damage to players inside the zone, up to a threshold.
*Raise Ally (All - Baseline) - Battle Resurrection.
Heart of the Wild (All - Talented) - Allows the Druid to turn into a specialization outside of their normal specc, allowing them to Tank (if not Guardian), Heal (if not Restoration), Melee DPS (if not Feral), or Ranged DPS (if not Boomkin) more effectively for 45s.
Dream of Cenarius (All - Talented - Passive) - Doing Spell or Melee damage will increase your heals, allowing you to become a more effective off-healer should your group need it.
Nature's Vigil (All - Talented) - Not only increases your Damage and Healing by 20% for 30s, but causes your ST heals to also damage enemies, and your ST damaging attacks to heal an ally.
*Rebirth (All - Baseline) - [The Original] Battle Resurrection.
Tranquility (All - Baseline) - Raidwide healing cooldown. Also comes with a HoT, so it lingers after you're done channeling it.
Innervate (All - Baseline) - Gives 10% mana to a target over 10s. Not big, but every bit helps.
Stampeding Roar (All - Baseline) - Raidwide 60% Sprint that also breaks roots and snares. This can be used in so many situations, though not many were given in T14 (Vizier and Blade Lord easily come to mind).
Symbiosis (All - Baseline - Effect depends on your specc) - Grants yourself one class ability based on the class you put this one as well as your specc, and gives one Druid ability to the player you gave this on, depending on what specc they are. This ability can be super helpful depending on what class you put it on. Mages and Warlocks get a heal, Shadow Priests get Tranquility, and as a Guardian, you normally get another tanking cooldown, like Bone Shield.
Wild Card Buff (All - Pet Reliant - BM has more choices) - As Beast Mastery, you can bring LITERALLY any buff, debuff, or Heroism. As MM/SV, you can bring any debuff and most buffs, but you usually have to pick one or two (Still Water, for example, bring Crit and Spellpower).
Aspect of the Pack (All - Baseline) - 30% raidwide speed boost, but you get dazed if hit. This ability actually does have some use, but none really in T14. It's still helpful at times and has been through time (Hagara in DS for example).
*Misdirection (All - Baseline) - Good for pulls and when the tank's a tad low on aggro, this tool transfers all threat you do over 4s for 30s (I'll admit, I'm kinda stretching on the Hunter ones, but they do have some use. They, too, are in a bad spot for raid utility).
*Time Warp (All - Baseline) - Yeah yeah, we all know what this shit does and it's not even unique.
[Note: I barely know about Monks, so I'm purely going through wowhead's talent calc. Also keep in mind, Monks are constantly changing to adapt being a new class]
Tiger's Lust (All - Talented) - 70% sprint that also clears all immobilizing and movement impairing effects on a target, to get their ass moving.
L30 Talents (All - Talented) - Any of these three choices, whichever you prefer, simply heals and does damage simultaneously. They're also dropping the Chi cost from all three of them in 5.2, so these do become some neat little abilities!
Chi Torpedo (All - Talented) - Turns your Roll ability into an awesome torpedo that heals anyone you pass through.
Zen Meditation (All - Baseline) - Redirects up to 5 harmful spells cast at allies at you instead. Also reduces your Magic damage taken by 90% for the 8s duration.
Black Ox Statue (Brewmaster) - Every time the Brewmaster deals a threshold of damage, someone in the raid gets a nice absorption shield. Pretty awesome IMO, especially for a Tank-only thing.
(?)Touch of Karma(?) (Windwalker) - I'm not exactly sure if this is intended in the way I'm thinking, but when you cast this debuff on an enemy, all damage you take is redirected to them instead for 6s. So, if coordinated well with your tanks, if you put this on a boss and then taunted him, would he simply take all that damage he does to you? The only thing keeping this from being broken is that it's capped at your max HP, but still, that's an extra 500k-ish damage if coordinated right! Don't include this one if that's not how it's meant to be, but if it is, that's (up to) 6s where tanks aren't taking direct hits.
Selfless Healer (All - Talented) - Your Judgements grant you a stacking buff. Each stack decreases Flash of Light's mana cost and increases its healing by 33% (up to 100%) if cast on someone else, allowing Ret and Prot paladins to heal w/o a cost based on Judgements if needed. (This is being nerfed to 20/40/60 in 5.2)
Sacred Shield (All - Talented) - Puts a buff on an ally that grants them an Absorption shield every 5 seconds. It also scales with a Paladin's AP.
Hand of Purity (All - Talented) - Reduces DoT damage by 70% (and in 5.2, ALL damage by 10% as well) for 6s on an ally of your choice. 30s cooldown
Clemency (All - Talented) - Allows a Paladin to cast Hand of Freedom, Protection, Sacrifice, and Salvation twice before incurring a cooldown. Freedom is helpful in places (Stone Guards), but Protection, if you have multiple Paladins, completely breaks Blade Lord (my raid group for example has 3 Paladins, giving us SIX Hands of Protection for Wind Steps).
L90 Talents (All - Talented) - All three choices have a damage and healing component, based on your preference. It may be a small heal, but it still heals as you damage, nonetheless (with the exception of Execution Sentence, which has to be cast on an ally to heal).
"Hand of" Spells (All - Baseline) - Freedom, Protection, Sacrifice, Salvation, Purity. You try telling me Paladins don't have quite a few tools at their hands.
Devotion Aura (All - Baseline) - Raidwide cooldown; blocks 20% of Magic damage and grants immunity to Silence and Interrupts over 6s.
Seal of Insight-Battle Healer (Prot mostly, but Ret can too - Baseline/Major Glyph) - Pretty much every attack will heal other people, not for much, but it's free healing that doesn't require anything but a Major Glyph slot (but for Ret, it requires losing SoT, which isn't ideal)
Lay on Hands (All - Baseline) - Instant wipe savor; heals a target to 100%.
Body and Soul (All - Talented) - Casting Power Word: Shield or Leap of Faith on an ally will give them a nice 60% sprint for 4s. (Probably my favorite thing about Priest)
Angelic Feather (All - Talented) - Places a feather on the ground. If an ally touches it, they get a 60% sprint for 4s.
L90 Talents (All - Talented) - Two of the three choices will deal AoE Damage AND Healing (Cascade only Healing OR Damage), based on your preference. All three are really great talents and should have been how all L90 talents were created.
Hymn of Hope (All - Baseline) - Raidwide Mana cooldown.
*Vampiric Embrace (Shadow) - Raidwide Healing cooldown that heals based on your ST damage. [Starred because Shamans have a talent like this, but it's still an awesome raidwide cooldown nonetheless]
Leap of Faith (All - Baseline) - Allows you to grip an ally to your position. Can be used in a plethora of situations, such as a player in a bad place, needing to go somewhere else, a player needing to gain some distance from their current location, a disconnecting player about to die from X coming to kill them, or even just to troll people, because who doesn't love troll abilities?
Void Shift (All - Baseline) - Instant wipe savor; swaps your % health with an ally's % health, and then heals the lower of the two to 25%, if under 25% (Cast on an ally at < 20% while you're at 100% = You're now at 25% and they're at 100%. It's like a different form of Lay on Hands, and it's an amazing ability)
Smoke Bomb (All - Baseline) - Not really helpful until 5.2, which it will then be a raidwide cooldown for -20% damage taken.
Feint (All - Baseline) - Being able to tank AoE situations like Garalon? I might as well put it here if Swizzle is going to include Food as an argument for "helping the raid".
[Yeah, Rogues don't bring much, but a sure of a lot more than Mages]
Windwalk Totem (All - Talented) - Raidwide cooldown that grants immunity to movement impairing effects.
Ancestral Swiftness (All - Talented) - Allows your next Nature spell to be cast instantly if it has a cast time. Instant heals?
*L75 Talents (All - Talented) - All three provide healing in a way. Ancestral Guidance is the best if you're Elemental or Enhancement, and is also shared with Vampiric Embrace, a Shadow Priest ability.
Totems (May depend on specc) - We all know there's a plethora of totems, and they all do different effects and help in a way, such as Healing Stream Totem which heals allies with only the cost of a global, or Tremor Totem which grants immunity (and removal of) to Fear, Charm, and Sleep effects to the raid. There's many more, but I don't want to go into them all. Let's just agree that they have a ton, similar to Paladins' 'Hand of' spells.
[Note: Due to the revamp, I've been lost on Warlocks for awhile now]
Healthstones (All - Baseline) - Raidwide, self-use, 3 times a battle, and it's a 20% heal. Not only is it baseline, but it helps the ENTIRE raid. Way better than shitty old Cold Snap, don't you think?
*Soulstone (All - Baseline) - Battle Resurrection.
Demonic Gateway (All - Baseline) - Essentially, Warlocks have a Portal gun, and during raid bosses, you get to play Portal, with some restrictions.
Self Healing (All/Speccs may vary - Talented and/or Baseline - Passive, Active, Support, literally everything) - Warlocks probably have the best self-healing in the game. They're essentially what you would call a "Blood Mage" that uses Shadow and Fire magic. They drain health, use their health for spells, then turn damage into health. Not only does this save your ass, but it greatly saves the Mana of your healers.
L75 Talent (All - Talented) - Depending on your preference, all of these reduce damage of an ally (or all allies) in some shape or form.
Banners (All - Baseline) - Skull Banner being my favorite, increases the raid's Critical Strike DAMAGE (the only one of its kind by far as it's not CHANCE, it's DAMAGE) by 20%. The other two banners are helpful as well, but this one is probably the best overall.
Rallying Cry (All - Baseline) - Last Stand for your raid.
If you ask me, literally everyone has something to help their raid that's unique. Even Hunters, despite not having a lot. We get something that can only be used once per battle (unless the fight's super long) and two other classes can use it anyways.
And I'm only going to say it one more time: FOOD, Swizzle? That's your argument?
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 07:36 PM ----------
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 07:39 PM ----------
Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-01-18 at 12:40 AM.
We either need more utility or more damage. I don't care which. But there needs to be a reason to allow a mage into your raid for progression.
We're not so bad that we can't be in a raid, we certainly are 'fine' - but every other class is exceptional.
While I agree we need more raid utility, Time Warp is pretty big. A lot of raid groups still don't have on demand shaman (just like our frost spec, except essentially the whole shaman class) because they are still recovering from years of neglect. Two classes with such a needed spell is pretty unique. If 3 classes had it, I would agree, but not with two (especially when the other one isn't that well represented.) But I agree a cool defensive spell would be nice.
Awesome list there Dragon and perfectly highlights our issues. You forgot a warrior one
Mass Spell Reflection (All - Talented) Reflects the next spell on you and on all party and raid members within 20 yards for 5 seconds.
I know a couple of guys who use this in their raids.
If we're being brought purely for Time Warp, then we go back to BC/LK days of "bring the character, not the player" which is a HORRIBLE philosophy and even Blizzard agrees.
Why you gotta be lying It's a L75 talent.L75 Talent (All - Talented) - Depending on your preference, all of these reduce damage of an ally (or all allies) in some shape or form.
Fair enough though I think that particular one is the most useful one.
Dude I don't want to quote the thing because it's way too long but you start to hurt your argument a lot in post 229. You are listing tons of things that are not even raid buffs but solely personal cooldowns. You should add a few things to that list for mages if you're counting it that way. For instance, Blink, a Mage using blink could blink over to an add and freeze it in place if it's on a healer, letting the healer get away. What about spellsteal? You could spell steal a magic effect off a boss to increase your dps, no other classes can do that. If you're going to say Druids are unique because we can pop symbiosis and tank for a little while, then why can't I say mages are unique because they can debuff the boss and buff themselves at the same time, both of which help the raid by letting the tank take less damage and making the boss die faster? I could go on and on about Presence of Mind, Ring of Frost, Mage Bomb, etc. but I won't because I think that I've already made my point.
You signed up to be a pure dps class. You bring things to the table that other classes don't. Don't blame the developers for giving your class utility over a passive buff.
Oh, and Pure DPS argument? You got it:
Also, as far as "I bring things to the table that other don't", please tell me what that is. I bring a few self-utility tools, like Blink, Barrier/Temporal Shield, and G Invis/Cauterize. Feel free to look at the plethora of tools I could bring as a Shaman or a Paladin, or hell even a Warlock. Warlocks have a fuckton more personals than Mages do ON TOP OF their nice list of raid utility.
People are trying to formulate what we bring that's unique, and so far their list is Invisibility to mass rez the raid (when Rogues and Hunters do it better w/o the assistance of a talent), Time Warp, which Shamans and BM hunters can bring, and FOOD. FUCKING. FOOD, that doesn't even give the well fed buff, so what's the point? We save you a couple gold that you don't even need anyways because of feasts? Awesome. The fact that people are grasping at straws at this just means they're in denial about how shitty our unique-ness really is.
Now if you want, I'll be more than glad to make a "personal cooldown/utility" list for every class/specc, but that may take me a day or two, and frankly, I know DAMN WELL other classes have a nice toolkit, Warlocks especially have it better than us in that department too. All we really bring is damage, and besides Scorchweaving, we don't even really bring that much. Besides, Scorchweaving is going away in 5.2 regardless.
All of this being said, if they hybrid tax still existed, and ALL THREE SPECCS OF ALL FOUR PURES WERE ALWAYS 1-12, THEN, and only then, could I accept this lack of raid utility. But guess what? That's not the fucking case here.
Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-01-18 at 06:14 AM.
The thing that made me want to list all the personal shit that you have was the fact that you listed symbiosis as something that helps the raid. How is me being able to switch to a bear anymore beneficial than you having more damage cooldowns and notoriously more dps? Both help defeat the encounter. So what's the big deal? Defeating the encounter is what's important, not your individual dps or what rank you are on logs or something.
I think that you should just be grateful that A) your class always has a spec in the top 3 or 4 dps specs every patch and B) that Blizz threw you a bone with TW, sounds like that's the only reason someone would take a player who gripes so much to their raid lol
It'd be cool raid util for mages if they changed our conjured food to be useable in combat. It would be useful but with a catch-- you still have to sit down, and a hit would interrupt it. It gives us something healthstone-esque to give the raid.
But no matter what, the first thing we need is a 10-20% damage reduction attached to each mage armor.