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  1. #261
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empath View Post
    I'm sorry, isn't that what all of wow is like? Apply dot(s), spam filler, use a cd or two... I thought there was more to wow than just doing your rotation. The game offers beautiful scenery, unique boss encounters, and a lot of other activities that can be enjoyed by both the casual and serious players. Anyone can reduce their rotation to the bare essentials and it will sound boring.
    Most classes and specs have an additional resource to manage and some semblance of difference between specializations. If it can be done for Warlocks, it can be done for Mages, MM Hunters, and Rogues.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  2. #262
    Here's my plan, let's make one spec rely on managing mana, one rely on gaming its crit chance and one based around managing procs and a pet.

  3. #263
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Here's my plan, let's make one spec rely on managing mana, one rely on gaming its crit chance and one based around managing procs and a pet.
    Or we could give the latter two specs resources to manage like the first rather than being slaves to RNG.

    In fact, we could remove Mana from Arcane and replace it with an energy-like resource similar to Arcane Power from D3.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  4. #264
    I'd quite enjoy an Arcane spec that had mana that went up with a speed more like Destro's Chaotic Energy (though obviously with more of a focus on keeping it high, than a focus on making sure it didn't run out), though what we've got at the moment is still enough to satisfy me until 6.0 on Beta when I'll be able to make that suggestion to the dev team and have it given proper attention.

  5. #265
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I'd quite enjoy an Arcane spec that had mana that went up with a speed more like Destro's Chaotic Energy (though obviously with more of a focus on keeping it high, than a focus on making sure it didn't run out), though what we've got at the moment is still enough to satisfy me until 6.0 when I'll be able to make that suggestion to the dev team and have it given proper attention.
    If that were the case I'd much rather Mastery damage increases be set in increments, like 75/50/25%. As it stands, Mastery loses value the moment you drop below 100%.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  6. #266
    They would certainly either have to have Mastery at increments or simply balance around you not having 100% benefit, the problem with the latter (and current) system being that players will always search for ways to stay at 100% mana at all times and thus do more damage than they are balanced to do.
    Like Scorch weaving at present! And Invocation tapping on the PTR if they don't find a way to patch that out.

    One way of solving that is with increments and that seems a fairly sensible way to do it, though it might simply delay the value mages try and ensure they are above by gaming tactics!
    There has to be some reason the Mage would ever dip into the 50% boundary and not feel that he was failing or Mastery simply becomes a passive "+% damage" stat. Which... it basically is for some classes, but I'd rather it wasn't because that's just a bit boring.

    Maybe Mana Adept would simply become a flat bonus and Mastery would increase mana regen? But it'd have to be by fairly small amounts to outweigh the other stats, and you can't really decouple regen from Haste either or that's heavily devalued...
    There's probably a way to do that, but I haven't quite figured it out yet.

  7. #267
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    They would certainly either have to have Mastery at increments or simply balance around you not having 100% benefit, the problem with the latter (and current) system being that players will always search for ways to stay at 100% mana at all times and thus do more damage than they are balanced to do.
    Like Scorch weaving at present! And Invocation tapping on the PTR if they don't find a way to patch that out.

    One way of solving that is with increments and that seems a fairly sensible way to do it, though it might simply delay the value mages try and ensure they are above by gaming tactics!
    There has to be some reason the Mage would ever dip into the 50% boundary and not feel that he was failing or Mastery simply becomes a passive "+% damage" stat.
    There's probably a way to do that, but I haven't quite figured it out yet.
    Crazy idea. Perhaps Mastery should be more like Spirit for Arcane Mages: if mana were replaced with Arcane Energy or whatever, Mastery could increase the speed at which it regenerates. Mana Adept could be baseline, forcing a tradeoff between Mastery and Haste. Again, crazy idea.

    As regards the 50%, perhaps Arcane Power could be a cooldown that lasts for much longer, but you lose it if you gain more than 50% of mana.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  8. #268
    The Patient
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    Omg, what has Blizzard done to mages (I haven't played mine since Cata)?

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    can i have some the drugs u are taking, cos i think they are messing u up something rotten atm:


    all caster classes have similar cleave damage, multi dot classes (shadow priest and aff lock) have very good aoe damage just has alot of ramp up time.


    there is no skill in the world that will make arcane specifically but all 3 of our specs better at on the move dps compared to a DoT class so this arguement doesn't hold any water, the best players in teh world, u know, the ones where skill is no longer a limiting factor still struggle really hard at mobility as a mage, so yeah, come back when u know wtf ur talking about here.


    all 3 specs are identical to play, only difference for arcane, u have to watch ur mana, other than that, it plays the same as fire, and frost, apply bomb, spam filler, hit lighty up button, use a cooldown to boost damage, rinse and repeat until boss dies or u wipe whichever comes first.


    also, according to sims, it is possible for humans to fly through space purely using the power of thier farts, see what this kind of arguement does, absolutely fucking nothing, a simulator does not account for human error, it does not account for on the spot decision making, and it sure as hell does not account for player skill, according to sims, arcane is second best spec in game, is it in reality, not by a long way, some fights it shines, others it just plain sucks.

    mages are not OP in anyway, shape or form, if the choice was between an equally skilled and geared shadow priest, u take the priest, if the choice was between an equally geared and skilled ele shammy, u take the shammy over the mage, pure and simple, guess ur still playing in LFR where it is piss easy to top the meters as a mage, i mean hell, when i bother to jump into an LFR i'm doing 11-15% of all raid damage and around 6% ahead of the next person on damage done, does that mean my class is OP, does it fuck.

    get a clue, then come back and actually give a meaningful arguement that isn't all anecdotal with little to no substance for anybody to take seriously.
    Okay, so maybe I wasn't specific enough when discussing cleave fights, however, but given the word 'cleave' I had assumed you wouldn't be retarded enough to realise it means the targets re in close enough proximity to cleave onto, not something like Will of Emperor. Stone Guard, Windlord, even Protectors to en extent even though that's useless cleave damage. If a Fire Mage with the same skill level as all other players is in on these fights, they won hands down, there is absolutely no contest, none! No Lock, SP or Ele Shamn will win out, and if they do, it's the player, not the class.

    Really? Show me a fight where you have to move fore more than 1 second before you can stop, cast and go again? Show me ONE FIGHT where you cannot position yourself in a way to do this? Now, tell me what the CD is on using Scorch? What did I hear you say, a global? OMG, it turns out that during that 1 second moving, you can still cast a mana free scorch that let's you gain mana back so you can continue to AB, lets even say you've to move for 2 seconds, maybe even 3? Oh look, you can cast 2-3 Scorches, be back to full Mana and still sitting on 6 stacks.... Does this mean you may have to keep 2 runes up? Yes it does, but again, PLAYER SKILL is what matters most here, understanding wheat he movement is coming, preparing for it with your positioning and your runes, don't be fucking stupid and try to say we have no mobility, actually read your spells and cop the fuck on. You also have your bombs, last time I checked, aren't they instant casts too? Oh, yes they are... Why not refresh one of those if its falling off when your moving?

    Okay, so with the Saracasm aside, I do not disagree that other classes have better mobility for us, but ours is absolutely fine if you just use your head and play with skill instead of tunnelling into DPS mode and then shouting at your computer when you have to move!

    According to you logic, every caster class in the game is exactly the same then, because all of the follow the rotation you mentioned.... Affli Lock, Apply Dots, hit lightly up button (Haunt), spam filler, use Dark Soul off CD, Ele Shaman, apply shock, hit lightly up button, use filler etc etc, Shadow Preists exactly the same.

    So, you say in the first part of your post that the Mages skill makes no difference whatsoever, then you say we can't trust sims as they do t account for human error and player skill? I'm actually LOLing right now.... There is absolutely no doubt that Sims are not the best way to look at DPS, but they do still show what's theoretically possible and it is a starting point. Lets forget about Sims for a min and look at just logs and parses, still think that Arcane is not top? Cop the fuck on mate... Still think fire isn't top for cleave fights? Seriously, wake up...

    Mages are still the OP class right now, weather you want to believe it or not, raidbots confirms it, rankings confirm it, everything does, so stop your bitching. If you where my GM, and I seen you take an SP or Ele Shaman over the Mage for Raids, I'd be the firsth person telling you how fucking stupid you are mate, SP damage is so rubbish right now for Single Target it's not even funny, yes they shine on Elegon and Will cause of the multi dotting and the flow of the fights but that's it. And will people cop the fuck on about their Tranquility, have any of you actually bothered to look over logs of how much a SPs Tranq actually does? Obviously not if you keep saying how big an impact it has... Tell you what, I won't completely ruin the surprise for ye, go onto WoL, find a log where an SP used Tranq, see how much it actually did and then come back here and try tell me that's a reason to bring the Preist over the Top DPS class for 90% of the fights right now.

    And FYI, I base my numbers and those around me from my own guild in HC progression, yes we're not a world top 1000 guild but we re decent. I do a lot of LFR to test out cross realm applicants for my guild, I have a specific set of instructions I give them on specific fights to test different areas of their play style before we make a decision to accept them or not. 11-15% of total damage done in LFR would be very low for me, and that's as Fire. I base absolutely noting I say around LFR however, I base it all around my HC Raid Observations, raidbots and logs.

  10. #270
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pspsully View Post
    Really? Show me a fight where you have to move fore more than 1 second before you can stop, cast and go again? Show me ONE FIGHT where you cannot position yourself in a way to do this?
    I just want to point out that those one second movements = You just lost your Invocation cast, as its happened to me countless times. People need to realize that ANY amount of movement, no matter how small, will instantly dampen your DPS for the next 15ish seconds if using Invocation and you get fucked on RNG.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I just want to point out that those one second movements = You just lost your Invocation cast, as its happened to me countless times. People need to realize that ANY amount of movement, no matter how small, will instantly dampen your DPS for the next 15ish seconds if using Invocation and you get fucked on RNG.
    Not tracking mechanics in encounters is bad..

  12. #272
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Not tracking mechanics in encounters is bad..
    That's an easy cop out. RNG can screw you whether you are tracking mechanics or not. You could easily never evocate because you are "tracking mechanics" and don't want to get interrupted. There are times when you either have to take the chance and refresh the buff, or do sub par damage.

    The fact that evo's cast time got cut in half will certainly help reduce the RNG factor though.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    That's an easy cop out. RNG can screw you whether you are tracking mechanics or not. You could easily never evocate because you are "tracking mechanics" and don't want to get interrupted. There are times when you either have to take the chance and refresh the buff, or do sub par damage.

    The fact that evo's cast time got cut in half will certainly help reduce the RNG factor though.
    Still I'd rather have the old 1 as for me, I had no problems maximizing it.. maybe its just me, but there is no real "rng" that can fuck it up, as even those so called rng abilities on bosses like tornadoes on blade lord have a cd..

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Not tracking mechanics in encounters is bad..
    RNG mechanics ? Having an aoe pop under you (tsulong), tornado in your face (blade lord), Mind controls, chains...

    You can't predict every mechanics, some are still random.

  15. #275
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Not tracking mechanics in encounters is bad..
    I guess puddles being thrown on you is easily trackable.

    How about when Elegon throws a spark at you?

    The occasional baddie that got too close to you, despite being nowhere close to the way he was SUPPOSED to be kiting.

    It fucking happens dude, it's called RNG. Don't fucking use such a shitty cop out like that.

  16. #276
    I wish I could see into the mind of the devs. I want to know what their intention is for each L90 talent. Why pick RoP over Invocation?

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    I wish I could see into the mind of the devs. I want to know what their intention is for each L90 talent. Why pick RoP over Invocation?
    MP5 for Arcane.

    For Fire/Frost, there's no point to RoP in 5.2 unless you'll be completely still the whole boss.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    RNG mechanics ? Having an aoe pop under you (tsulong), tornado in your face (blade lord), Mind controls, chains...

    You can't predict every mechanics, some are still random.
    All of those have a CD on them that is longer than it takes for 1 evocation cast..

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    All of those have a CD on them that is longer than it takes for 1 evocation cast..
    exactly, also you wouldnt be casting fireball when tornado/nightmare is coming at you would you hmmm??

    going to complain you cant dps while moving then??(curse them warlocks :P)

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    exactly, also you wouldnt be casting fireball when tornado/nightmare is coming at you would you hmmm??

    going to complain you cant dps while moving then??(curse them warlocks :P)
    Why wouldn't be fair? Both are ranged. Both are casters. Both use mana. Both have defensive tools. Both have mobility tools.

    Only locks can fully dps on the move (its impossible to screw up movement as a lock - even if you're bad).

    Only locks bring a unique spell (healthstone - every raid and their mom pick HS as it's a free pot).

    Oh yeah, we bring ring of frost. lol

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 01:36 PM ----------

    Also, you guys focusing too much in this tier. Many many fights in this game were pretty movement intensive. Unless you started playing in MoP, you guys should know this...

    MOving while doing full dps is gamebraking - and its is a HUGE QoL improvement whether you see it or not.

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