Invocation will be nerfed and both set bonuses changed, but, if anything i would like to see a change to Fire so i can play it competitevly again.
If I've learned anything from Blizzard PTR it's that they never fix any issues, just cause more problems. All of Dragon's posts on the previous page are spot on.
Mages have been "lucky" so far in that our dps hasn't suffered too much, because we have just been jumping from one overpowered spec to another (I play haste scorch weaving atm). The quality of life and general state of the class has never been in a worse place since I made my mage my main in 2007 though.
Blazing speed op? They're being jerks on purpose. My theory is: they want us to reroll low represented classes, especially a caster class which got lots of love and an overhaul.
Mine is lvl 89 already!
Never thought about stopping playing a mage till this xpac tho (ya, sunwell sucked, but I had both mage and lock ready for raiding back then and chose according to my raid leader needs).
MoP mage = Boring talents, being balanced around lvl90 talents which favors standing still over modern raiding tools (movement tools while keeping mid-high dps, i.e., Kiljaeden's cunning), clueless devs, arcane and this crazy mindset about not wasting mana to do high dmg, fire being competitive only in BiS gear (or when progression doesn't matter), removal of an iconic spell if you chose a talent (a talent that nerfs you), frost not scaling the way it should to be competitive... Let's not even talk about that polymorph tier back in beta.
Seriously, I can't stand it anymore. It seems like a joke. It seems like they want us to reroll. Why would they be so stupid?
Case in point - Mage and Warlock Tier 15 and Season 13 gear. Mage is generic, boring, glowy stuff, some kind of dragons (how's that relevant to anything?) Warlocks: Strong Mogu and Mantid theme going on there. Warlock Tier 14, strong Sha theme - Mage ... huh? Burning scrolls... ok... Worst set imo - Mage Challenge Mode set. *NO* theme going on there, just slap together a generic wizard outfit with the pointy hat, three different colors for the three specs, some crystals (why crystals actually? we got mana gem/crystal and ... what else? what's with the crystals and mages? Same for Tier 7), done.
GC talked about casters standing still and that they actually like that, that it's the only disadvantage ranged dps has. But ... it's *NOT FUN*. Come on, please come up with a way to make the classes difficult, challenging, but not *not fun*.
And it's kinda effed up to force Mage to stand still all the freaking time while at the same time Hunters can now attack while moving *all the effing time* and so can Warlocks with Kil'Jaeden's Cunning (aside from very few wide area AOE situations the default tier 6 talent).
So hunters and locks can move whenever they goddamn feel like it, especially affliction locks dps the hell out of everyone and they only get buffed, we get nerfed and have to stand in a damn rune they then proceed to nerf as well.
I don't give a damn about PvP so please don't talk about how Mage is so OP in PvP and how dare we complain.
I'm talking about PvE and actually more about flavor of the class, not necessarily power. Arcane does damage fine, but it's just boring, annoying, and frustrating to play. Fire is not viable until very high gear levels and Frost is not competitive.
Last edited by one_entity; 2013-01-11 at 11:16 PM.
This thread is so spot on it almost brings tears to my eyes. Dragon you've done such a great job voicing the frustrations I feel on a near daily basis. I only do PVE and have had a mage since vanilla, currently my main. This is the worst I've ever felt playing a mage and even a new transfer to my guild had the same feelings. After the knee jerk overreaction fire nerf obliterated my chances of raiding fire spec'd (my favorite spec by far) and rendered all the haste/crit and crit/hit gear I had gathered up to that point nothing more than poorly itemized it was quite depressing.
Everyday I end up reading stuff about what ails my dwindling fun with this class. GC's twitter is especially (and specifically) disheartening to read. Smarmy dodging of serious issues I never felt like rerolling before all this began. Hell I never felt like not logging in as strongly as this before. The BS replacing Blink was also something I spotted upon reading as mind bogglingly bad. The T15 4pc for fire is insanely lackluster. The lvl90 talents are a JOKE. They've been nerfing both unnecessarily and also in the wrong spots/direction, not to mention too frequently.
Anyway Dragon you've been voicing most if not all of my concerns very elegantly so I tip my hat to you.
Exactly. Specifically, the level 90 talents are NOT FUN. They are not something I look forward to pressing the button (as blizzard would say), they are more like filling up the gas tank or paying bills: stuff I HAVE to do, not stuff I really WANT to do. GC referenced the 90 talents as "too maintainencey" more than once, is he implying that he thinks there should be downtime on them? What mage in their right mind would not want to maintain as close to 100% uptime on these as possible? Why are we the only class with 15%+ of our damage tacked on to the backend of a horrible mana managing mechanic that should no longer exist except for arcane... which had better mana management tools in wrath and cata than mop. Not to mention the heart of arcane, the ability to have burst on demand, was gutted in favor of... whatever we have now.
GC saying fire is fine, the clunkiness of every spec, the mind boggling 90 talents, blazing speed replaces blink TOO OP, the fact that a straight fool like Lhivera who cannot possibly be playing the game more than an hour a week is our class mvp... as I mentioned in a previous post, all we have is our dps, which is mainly owed to fire and now arcane being really powerful. If we were ever "balanced" to the level blizzard wants, we would be almost irrelevant because we have very limited or situational raid utility compared to pretty much any other class. Take away time warp and what do we have left? lol
And to the people saying fire is better in high end gear? I have that gear, it still sucks.
It's more baffling at the amount of sensationalizing are with mages. The Talents aren't the very best true but I think if any class that is having LOADS of issues are rogues and not mages. Personally I wish they just give us improved blink back. That was so helpful back in Cataclysm it isn't even funny. I still am wondering personally what is going on with Arcane spec. I mean I personally wish they make Scorch baseline.
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T15 is literally useless for Arcane, it's once again the only spec that gets it's bonus completely negated by the increasing mana cost that comes with it. No other spec's bonus has a cost. And the 11% increased Arcane Blast base mana cost is ridiculous. Considering you can't camp 6-stack anymore that will surely return Arcane to be the horribly underpowered spec it was at 5.0, while Hunters and Warlocks stay overpowered and are left unchecked. It's a total waste of time to gear up a Mage for PVE.
I feel like my opinion here often isn't welcome but I still think Mages definitely aren't suffering as badly as some of our other frequent posters would like to believe, though this mostly boils down to the fact that I have absolutely no issue enjoying the level 90 talents and several others do.
Blizzard need to pick a clear direction for Arcane and stick to it, stop influencing Arcane with talents and tier sets more than the other two specs (Decouple mana from the 90 tier!) and maybe throw Fire a bone so it feels less neglected but after that I'd be fairly content apart from a bit of numbers tweaking (which everyone needs, constantly).
Some more flavour and flashier effects would be nice too but those are most likely going to have to wait until 6.0, class art assets don't usually come mid-expansion.
I'd also like some re-imagining of Mage AOE and a more permanent solution to Fire's incredible scaling and Frost's lacklustre scaling but these aren't particularly critical issues.
Your opinion is just as valued as everyone else's Imnick. But there are so definitive issues that are so easy to fix (which is why they are frustrating). Some off the top of my head:
1. Problem: RoP's clunkiness and lack of effectiveness with Frost and Fire. Invocation is not only equal or better damage, but it's also much easier to use. Stepping off RoP for even a second makes Invocation eons better.
Possible Solution: Make it instant cast (maybe with a lower GCD) and last indefinitely. Add a glyph called Glyph of Lingering Power (major) that maintains the full effect for 5 seconds after leaving the Rune. Bam, entire skill instantly fixed and very appealing.
2. Problem: Frost's lack of secondary stat scaling. Same issue it had in Cata. Crit becomes nigh on useless past cap, and once frostbolt reaches GCD with Icy Veins or Bloodlust it drops off heavily as well. Towards the middle of the expansion Frost only has one remotely viable stat: Mastery (and it's not that good to begin with)
Possible Solution: This is a hard one. We can't fix crit for frost without rewriting Shatter and FoF/BF. Blizzard won't do that in a patch. So we need to look to haste and mastery. For mastery, we could simply increase the benefit per point (but that has PvP implications). We could avoid those implications by increasing the per point on the pet's damage increase only. Boring, but it wouldn't do much to PvP. For haste, I honestly am clueless. They could add an effect that increases the effect haste has on lowering the GCD for frost; however, once again PvP implications are staring us in the face. This one is a lot harder to solve for Haste and Crit, but mastery is pretty easy (albeit boring) in my opinion. I should note that I'm listing changes that are possible within an expansion. I could come up with a million outlandish ideas, but they won't see the light of day till 6.0 if even then because of their core changes.
3. Problem: Fire, due to it's unique scaling nature, is constantly plagued by hotfixes which cause it to suffer both from a QoL standpoint and a numerical one. Fire (since wrath) has been notorious for being bad towards the beginning of an expansion, and always being the best at the end (Every mage and his mother was fire during ICC and Dragon Soul). They attempted to fix this by adding a crazy multiplier in the beginning, and they probably planned to nerf it if it got out of hand (which it did).
Possible Solution: Honestly not a single idea. How do we fix this issue without touching the very core of why fire is appealing (the RNG/bursty nature of it)? Many have suggested a "After casting x fireballs, you automatically get instant pyroblast". But that's so bland and dull. I don't know how to fix this at all.
4. Problem: Mages, at one point in history, were unique. Go back two expansions. Having a teleport, portals, and a blink was sacred. Fire being used to gimmick at least one fight per tier (which always revolved around either it's massive DoT spreading ability or the Pyroblast-ignite combination).It was awesome. Fast forward to today. Every class has some form of a distance closer, hearthstones have a 15 minute CD and there are portals in every city to everywhere you could possibly want to go. Fire can no longer take advantage of gimmicks as there is a target limit to DoT spreading. Getting Time Warp slightly alleviated this, and so has getting the best single buff in the game (10% SP and 5% crit), but I don't feel unique anymore. A look at warlocks shows things that are very unique. A secondary resource system, demonic gateways which allow you to gimmick almost every fight if used properly (platforms on vizier, wind tunnel on bladelord, spirit kings for avoiding the charge, Will for avoiding rages if possible, etc).
Possible Solution: This is where the devs have to get creative. You have to give mages something no other class has that isn't readily available in the world (portals are everywhere, and everyone has at least a shaman now). How about a raid wide movement speed cooldown? (Possible Blazing Speed alternative?), how about a Mass Alter Time? (I get giddy just thinking about the possibilities for that). How about flying mounts exclusive to the mage class? Idk, this is where the devs come in. With regard to the actual class, stop the homogenization. All 3 specs go like this: Mage Bomb, Filler, Proc, dps cooldown when necessary. Go look at the talent calculator, and you'll see magi have the least differentiating them from each other compared to every other class. Fix this.
5. Problem: Blazing Speed. I don't have much hope for this since blizzard thinks the current iteration is somehow "OP". It pales in comparison to its other Tier rivals, one which is active mitigation and the other which can heal any amount of damage without using a GCD on a short cooldown.
Possible Solution: Remove it completely. Put in Improved Blink. 70% MS for 3 seconds. I would pull my hair out deciding which among that kind of tier to pick, which is exactly what you should be aiming for. I feel as if Blizzard is looking at BS with Blink right next to it, which is the wrong path. You need to look at the tier. BS needs to be worth getting rid of either Ice Barrier or TS. You've got one of the best active mitigation abilities in the game, a shield with no GCD that heals ALL damage you take in the time interval (I'm always the last to die because of this ability), and then a spell that replaces blink but does the same thing? You've chosen 3 good ideas for the survivability tier: Active Mitigation, Retroactive Healing, and Mobility. But that mobility needs to match the caliber of the other two.
This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure as the conversation continues many many more will come to light that I couldn't conceive of at 4 in the morning.
Last edited by Sw1tch; 2013-01-12 at 09:08 AM.
My mage has been my main since about 3 months into vanilla. About a year and a half to two years ago I started to get really angry when mages were constantly nerfed. Ever since then I guess I have been gradually numbed to the stupidity and carelessness that Blizzard continuously displays when it comes to dealing with mages. I actually had the tiniest bit of a spark of hope when MoP was released but then when 5.1 was released and soon 5.2 I just shrugged with apathy.
I guess some of the fault has to do with me even bothering to think that our abysmal so called "class representative" in Blizzard would dare to make mages good for any prolonged period of time. I suppose I am too deep and involved with my mage this expansion to pick up a new main to get back into the raiding game with my guild. Next expansion I think I will finally lay my mage to rest for a class that actually gets positive reinforcement.
With the exception of Arcane exploiting Scorch (which will be nerfed in 5.2, which is also a mana nerf to Invocation users of Fire/Frost due to the 60s duration on it now), Frost has never been top and Fire only was until it got nerfed heavily, and now it's amongst the lowest ST DPS unless you get ridiculous RNG, in which case, you're middle of the pack. So no, unless you're cheating, your DPS isn't really that good anyways.
Edit: @Switch: You forgot Invocation, IW, and Fire/Frost suffering Mana issues because of that other, piece of shit, specc.
Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-01-12 at 10:53 AM.