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  1. #101
    None of those are Warlock spells either and Blizzard clearly associated them more closely with Mages than Warlocks because we got one of their spells in the next expansion >_>

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    Could have called it murder (killing the intent) or set up like a fag (since bundles of sticks were often used to burn things in bygone days) then. You chose the word abortion for a reason, and it wasn't to represent a change in ideas. Some of us are quite familiar with inflammatory rhetoric, though it still doesn't change that it's all based on your personal opinions.
    I chose the word abortion because it carries the implication of a sudden stop or reversal, which perfectly describes the Invocation 'changes'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    None of those are Warlock spells either and Blizzard clearly associated them more closely with Mages than Warlocks because we got one of their spells in the next expansion >_>
    They're not identical, but it doesn't change the fact that Warlocks have life transfer spells and we don't. And it's besides the point, really. Tier 10 is clearly based on different Scourge units, it doesn't imply anything other than 'we kill them, and steal their crap'.

  4. #104
    So which ICC bosses were the Warrior, Shaman, Paladin, Druid, Hunter and Priest sets based on?
    I'm pretty sure they were loosely class based, at least more so than Firelands.
    They can be both "Scourge-esque" and "Class based". There weren't any Crypt Lords in Icecrown Citadel!

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Washuwa View Post
    mages on single target are fine, they are top on the list tied with warlocks.... even after that nerf.. dont know why people keeps complaining and saying mages the worst single target class try a shadowpriest or a ele shaman.......
    You obviously haven't played Fire or Frost. Arcane is on the top because of Scorch.

    Quote Originally Posted by alucardtnuoc View Post
    -L90 talents are fine, the only annoying bit is if you start to channel evocation for invocation and you have to move due to a mechanic. Not really a problem if you know the fights you're doing though, as almost every mechanic is predictable. I do agree, IW could use a buff to how much damage it can absorb, bump it up a bit and take it off the GCD.

    -Mana tied to talents i can agree is a problem for arcane, but it's not an issue for frost or fire. I do get low mana warnings but if i want to stop that i can just use a mana gem.

    -No raid utility? I hear being able to blink out of unseen strike, or using greater invis as a dispersion on heroic will of the emperor to soak sparks is useless.

    - Worst self healing? Meh, i didn't sign up to be a healer, if i want to avoid damage i'll use temporal shield when needed, or spec into ice barrier for fights like heroic empress before the first dissonance explodes for an extra bit of survivability.

    - Scorch is available to use while moving, while it won't let you do 100% of your normal damage, you can still be active and dealing high amounts of damage as it both can prob FoF for frost and Pyroblast for fire.

    - Press x when y lights up... isn't every class like that now, frost dks press what ever they need to for their KM procs, hunters use LoL, shammys use lava burst etc etc.

    -Little to no choices for talents, then please tell me why i keep swapping between them for different heroic fights, it may be because you're not actually progressing through many heroics and feel since the few you have seen show that mages lack (which is funny) you're complaining.

    - Aoe is lacking when orb is on CD, but that's why you save it for when you know you need it, like on heroic fengs shield phase.

    - Frost does good dps when played right, arcane is at the top atm. I haven't touched fire as i don't favor heavy RNG swings.

    - Oh for the love of freezing adds in place, mass aoe slows and keeping things in check, glad i am useless.

    From you're armory you don't actually have that much raiding experience into heroics, 4/6 in MSV and 1/6 in HoF. All the things people are complaining about, some i can agree with, but not to the extent everyone is complaining about.
    - L90 talents are NOT fine. They are a huge annoyance while all other classes get fun or passive abilities while our damage is solely reliant on them. Compare them to any other class. We got shafted like crazy.

    - Try that in 5.2. 60s w/o an evocate for Invocation will hurt mana, bad.

    - Blink is self utility. Not raid. Soaking mechanics, eh, I'll give you that, but I'm referring to "stuff we give the raid", like Tranquility, Lockrocks/Demonic Gateway, VE, Hymn of Hope, etc.

    - That's, not the point.

    - Scorch is crap compared to other classes.

    - It's the fact that all 3 speccs play the exact same way, and no, not all classes are like that. Playing my Shadow Priest, it's a whole different game. My Warlock? Another game. Fire and Frost (as I haven't tried Arcane yet, but I get the gist of it) are the EXACT SAME THINGS.

    - What choices are you choosing? T1 is ALWAYS scorch, T2 is ALWAYS IB, T3 doesn't matter, but I take FJ for Lei Shi, T4 is Cauterize, EXCEPT H Elegon, which I'll take G Invis, T5 is Frost Bomb for 1-2 fights and NT for the rest, and T6 is Invocation (or RoP as Arcane). Please, tell me what "choices" are there.

    - Except that's a DPS loss if you just hold it, and that's just Frost. What about Fire/Arcane?

    - Fire is garbage. Trust me. Frost is okay, but nothing amazing. Arcane is only top because of Scorch's low mana, which is gone in 5.2.

    - Freezing adds in place, mass AoE slows? Hmm, sounds only useful on Elegon and Lei Shi. WOW, TWO FIGHTS THAT A FEW OF OUR MECHANICS ARE PRETTY NICE. TWO, OUT OF SIXTEEN.

    Yeah, we're not the most amazing guild, but if these are legitimate issues in NORMALS, then I can only imagine how HEROIC is (hell, I'm already having a horrible time trying to get through them). If you really see no problem with the L90 talents, then I'd love to see your armory just to confirm you're actually raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    GC was referring to an internal build of Blazing Speed that never made it to public PTR.

    Blazing Speed on live was too weak and unpopular. But they felt the first internal build of Blazing Speed was too strong. What we see on PTR is the 2nd build, which GC think might be too weak. They will tweak it more.
    Being allowed to use a garbage sprint on demand is too OP? They should learn what OP means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    You are missing the point. Their self heals are the same % wise is what I'm getting at. You are also forgetting ice barrier which if used on CD it's about a 20% absorption shield ergo 20% heals every 25 seconds. Which is about a .8% heal a second, which is effectively better than spirit bond even with only an 80% uptime on RoP.
    RoP doesn't have a 100% uptime, plus you don't waste a cast time to re-get Spirit Bond (since it doesn't have a 1m duration). SB >>>>>>>>> RoP on the grand scheme of things, but, yes, purely mathematically, they're equal, but that's a horribly stupid way to look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Thank you. Though you forgot to mention he is comparing a mages entire midigation and healing kit to one hunter talent. He forgets they can get a pet with heals, . Another major issue is armor. A lot of raids fire physical damage. PvP certainly entails a lot. Mail provides significantly more reduction then cloth. If you glyph and use molten armor, you can get almost as much midigation as they have default.

    So, if we go for maximum healing: We root ourselves, use two glyphs and two talents to get almost as much as hunters get from 1 talents and 1 pet choice while being able to do full damage while moving.

    And every other range class has more damage on the move and more midigation and healing.
    THANK YOU. That's what I'm trying to get at!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blutelf View Post
    Could you guys possibly be echochambering even harder? Good lord.

    You arent even reading the comments correctly. "Blazing speed op" -- you do realize he was referring to the previous PTR build rather than live?
    Which itself is a joke. Using a garbage sprint on demand is too OP? Not to mention one that requires giving up Ice Barrier.

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    So let me get this straight:

    Mages aren't upset about doing great damage, or even siming much, much higher than every single class in this game; rather that their quality of life is so poor, despite being in a much better position than most classes, they'd rather reroll than have to tolerate issues to which they perceive Blizzard is oblivious. And this is a much worse position to be in, of course, than a class who, even if played to its absolute maximum potential, cannot hold a candle to a Mage at the same gear level played poorly.
    Damage is another issue. Fire is crap and Frost is okay. Arcane is high only because of Scorch's low mana cost, which is being fixed in 5.2, so damage is a whole nother issue. If you don't know the issues, you clearly don't play Mage. Looking at your signature, that's pretty much a confirmation and your points are quite invalid here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    We're still one of the top DPS classes
    As Arcane with Scorch Weaving, sure. As Fire or Frost? No, we're not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylphen View Post
    So to summarize, any complaints about QoL issues are completely irrelevant because fun is subjective. Got'cha.
    I cannot agree with this quote enough times. DPS is not the end-all most important thing here, guys. I don't get why QoL issues aren't relevant here to some of you.


    Also, can everyone just shut the fuck up about our tier sets? Transmog gear is completely irrelevant here and I don't see why you guys are bothering to discuss that in a QoL thread.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-01-13 at 09:09 PM.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  6. #106
    Deleted
    i Personaly hate my mage. I love my mage whole time since tbc to cataclysm. When Mop hit i start get so bored. Forced t spec arcane to do competive dmg. Limited and penalised by talents instead of giving some bonus to my class. If i could know back in tbc what i know now i would create something els but never ever mager again.

  7. #107
    Deleted
    So which ICC bosses were the Warrior, Shaman, Paladin, Druid, Hunter and Priest sets based on?
    I'm pretty sure they were loosely class based, at least more so than Firelands.
    They can be both "Scourge-esque" and "Class based". There weren't any Crypt Lords in Icecrown Citadel!
    This is completely off-topic, but there you go:
    - Warrior and Shaman: Vrykul
    - Druid: Mutated experiments (Plague Quarter in Naxx)
    - Priest: Cult of the Damned
    - Hunter: Nerubian

    I'm not saying the sets are completely unrelated to each class, but from a design point of view they're fashioned after the Scourge. I doubt there's any deeper meaning, just like with tier 12 (e.g. Paladins and Fire elementals).

  8. #108
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Also, can everyone just shut the fuck up about our tier sets? Transmog gear is completely irrelevant here and I don't see why you guys are bothering to discuss that in a QoL thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I cannot agree with this quote enough times. DPS is not the end-all most important thing here, guys. I don't get why QoL issues aren't relevant here to some of you.
    Pretty much answered it yourself here.

    QoL is also about the general enjoyability of the class, abilities, gameplay, rotation, style, look of spells, everything. Tier sets aren't the most important thing, but they are a factor, and an indicator for a lack of theme, idea what to do with the class.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post

    - What choices are you choosing? T1 is ALWAYS scorch, T2 is ALWAYS IB, T3 doesn't matter, but I take FJ for Lei Shi, T4 is Cauterize, EXCEPT H Elegon, which I'll take G Invis, T5 is Frost Bomb for 1-2 fights and NT for the rest, and T6 is Invocation (or RoP as Arcane). Please, tell me what "choices" are there.
    This is the only thing you've said which I slightly disagree on. Frost Bomb is pretty useful for Frost as it is a predictable BF cast. Not to mention Frost Bomb and NT are virtually equal on one target.

    Also as frost you can take advantage of using Freeze the second before Frost Bomb goes off, dramatically improving your damage and giving you an instant arsenal of fully loaded procs.

    I will say though, NT is better for mobility by a long shot.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by one_entity View Post
    Pretty much answered it yourself here.

    QoL is also about the general enjoyability of the class, abilities, gameplay, rotation, style, look of spells, everything. Tier sets aren't the most important thing, but they are a factor, and an indicator for a lack of theme, idea what to do with the class.
    Nyeh. Mog doesn't really constitute fun, unless you're really that much into fashion, though I will agree it shows they have no theme for Mages atm. Still, it's not as big of an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    This is the only thing you've said which I slightly disagree on. Frost Bomb is pretty useful for Frost as it is a predictable BF cast. Not to mention Frost Bomb and NT are virtually equal on one target.

    Also as frost you can take advantage of using Freeze the second before Frost Bomb goes off, dramatically improving your damage and giving you an instant arsenal of fully loaded procs.

    I will say though, NT is better for mobility by a long shot.
    I've been playing Frost the last month or so (started with it, dropped it for Fire, then went back to it after Fire got nerfed hardcore). I was using Frost Bomb, and until you get H LotC (or you don't have Essence of Terror yet, but you do have N LotC), Frost Bomb is better, but once you get H LotC (or again, no EoT but do have N LotC) NT is actually better. Again, this is for ST DPS.

    The bomb aside, there are no choices. Scorch, IB, <Doesn't Matter>, Cauterize (G Invis for H Elegon), WHAT COLOR IS YOUR BOMB?! (only choice), and Invo for Fire/Frost; RoP for Arcane.

    So besides the Bomb, which isn't even that big of a choice, where are our "choices"?

    PS: Name me a single boss in MoP that is shatterable. What you said only works for Trash, AoE packs, and dungeon runs.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  11. #111
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Ok guys, crazy idea for Arcane. What if Arcane Barrage only cleared -half- of your Arcane Charges; making it more of a management tool akin to Scorch currently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Ok guys, crazy idea for Arcane. What if Arcane Barrage only cleared -half- of your Arcane Charges; making it more of a management tool akin to Scorch currently.
    The only problem I see with this is it would continue to encourage high AC stacking, but it would at least encourage us to use ABarr more.

    In addition, this is only a change to Arcane's rotation and a fix to Scorch-weaving, but it doesn't fix our QoL nor does it even touch Fire/Frost.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  13. #113
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    The only problem I see with this is it would continue to encourage high AC stacking, but it would at least encourage us to use ABarr more.

    In addition, this is only a change to Arcane's rotation and a fix to Scorch-weaving, but it doesn't fix our QoL nor does it even touch Fire/Frost.
    Duh. Still, ABarr is a sexy spell, I would like to see it be more...integral.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    You obviously haven't played Fire or Frost. Arcane is on the top because of Scorch.



    - L90 talents are NOT fine. They are a huge annoyance while all other classes get fun or passive abilities while our damage is solely reliant on them. Compare them to any other class. We got shafted like crazy.

    - Try that in 5.2. 60s w/o an evocate for Invocation will hurt mana, bad.

    - Blink is self utility. Not raid. Soaking mechanics, eh, I'll give you that, but I'm referring to "stuff we give the raid", like Tranquility, Lockrocks/Demonic Gateway, VE, Hymn of Hope, etc.

    - That's, not the point.

    - Scorch is crap compared to other classes.

    - It's the fact that all 3 speccs play the exact same way, and no, not all classes are like that. Playing my Shadow Priest, it's a whole different game. My Warlock? Another game. Fire and Frost (as I haven't tried Arcane yet, but I get the gist of it) are the EXACT SAME THINGS.

    - What choices are you choosing? T1 is ALWAYS scorch, T2 is ALWAYS IB, T3 doesn't matter, but I take FJ for Lei Shi, T4 is Cauterize, EXCEPT H Elegon, which I'll take G Invis, T5 is Frost Bomb for 1-2 fights and NT for the rest, and T6 is Invocation (or RoP as Arcane). Please, tell me what "choices" are there.

    - Except that's a DPS loss if you just hold it, and that's just Frost. What about Fire/Arcane?

    - Fire is garbage. Trust me. Frost is okay, but nothing amazing. Arcane is only top because of Scorch's low mana, which is gone in 5.2.

    - Freezing adds in place, mass AoE slows? Hmm, sounds only useful on Elegon and Lei Shi. WOW, TWO FIGHTS THAT A FEW OF OUR MECHANICS ARE PRETTY NICE. TWO, OUT OF SIXTEEN.
    you said DPS is not the problem and "lvl 90 talents are annoying" then use IW

    scorch is crap compare to other class......compare to other class....... THATS WHATS WRONG, you are "comparing" a talent to other class talent stop it (i wish they buffed icy flow and POM a little bit)

    you seem to know alot about mages even though you "havent tried arcane yet" please go play arcane before telling us how stupid mages are...

    oh and spirest rotation is soooo boring..... they need to add another orb generating mechanic -_- (30% to generate shadow orb when finishing mind flay or something)

    ok...ok.... you said you havent played arcane yet you are telling us arcane dps will be shit when they remove scorch rotation. oh please this is the most dumbest thing ive heard seriously, try like managaing your mana maybe??? its not hard you just need to look at your mana

    not going to quote anything about frost since im not really interested in frost right now..... zzzzzz

    only thing i would agree with you is yes blink is not a raid cd its a self utility lol. i wish mage had a raid cd (not time warp sorry something liek damage red or whole raid alter time)



    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Ok guys, crazy idea for Arcane. What if Arcane Barrage only cleared -half- of your Arcane Charges; making it more of a management tool akin to Scorch currently.
    not a bad idea but might as well just lower arcane charge max stack to 4 then zzzzz
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=dw+soul+roc in oceanic now Lol

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  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Snip
    Sure pew, you can look me up i am on your server, and i have you on ignore for a reason due to your constant bitching =) you should be able to check me up on armory.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Nyeh. Mog doesn't really constitute fun, unless you're really that much into fashion, though I will agree it shows they have no theme for Mages atm. Still, it's not as big of an issue.



    I've been playing Frost the last month or so (started with it, dropped it for Fire, then went back to it after Fire got nerfed hardcore). I was using Frost Bomb, and until you get H LotC (or you don't have Essence of Terror yet, but you do have N LotC), Frost Bomb is better, but once you get H LotC (or again, no EoT but do have N LotC) NT is actually better. Again, this is for ST DPS.

    The bomb aside, there are no choices. Scorch, IB, <Doesn't Matter>, Cauterize (G Invis for H Elegon), WHAT COLOR IS YOUR BOMB?! (only choice), and Invo for Fire/Frost; RoP for Arcane.

    So besides the Bomb, which isn't even that big of a choice, where are our "choices"?

    PS: Name me a single boss in MoP that is shatterable. What you said only works for Trash, AoE packs, and dungeon runs.
    I have to agree with this. I don't remember the last time I switched talents for a fight. Glyphs on the other hand I switch regularly (depending if fight has cleave/ trash/ single, e.g. use glyph of Ice Lance or not). But even then its a switch between two fixed sets of glyphs.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by scuac View Post
    I have to agree with this. I don't remember the last time I switched talents for a fight. Glyphs on the other hand I switch regularly (depending if fight has cleave/ trash/ single, e.g. use glyph of Ice Lance or not). But even then its a switch between two fixed sets of glyphs.
    switch greater invis/cold snap occasionally for H elegon, H sha of fear

    switch TS for H viz, H 4kings, H SG

    switch to IW for H will, garalon, H tsulong

    scorch is broken right now so yea...no need to change -_-

    bombs are meh but there arent many fights that involve whole council boss with separate hp these days(or gets to full hp when one dies)......

    hell i switch my talent all the time depending on what fights, sure i dont switch them when its on pure farm but when its progression i try to "maximise" my perfomrance but switching my glyphs/talents. so if you say you arent switching talent for a fight then you arent playing mage to maximum potential
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=dw+soul+roc in oceanic now Lol

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  18. #118
    Deleted
    If u dont switch Talents u dont get the most out of your char.
    I dont want to hang up in this discussion because its more like a flame and i have to say @dragon at first u have good points but in the end u start crying over and over again and thats annoying. Everytime i look into the forum and i see a post of u i know its another mimimi.
    Some things i will only say:
    U (u all not one special) are crying about bad movement, bad selfheal, bad utility, bad talents and say class x has y which is better....
    And after all u cry about mages not being unique anymore. U got the point? If we get the same movement selfheal utility and talents like, let me say hunter, i think all what happen would be that mages cry all over they are like hunters and remove the class and so on and so on.
    I dont want to be a hunter. Im a mage. I know that im are bad at moving and selfheal.
    I think scorch is enough for moving. Sure its place in the talens is not the best idea but i dont want more. Im a steady glass canon.
    Also i dont want selfheal. Im a dd not a healer.
    Im in a raid to deliver dps. U say dps are a cover which might be true. But isnt that what we wanted? We cryed for years we are a dpsclass and dont want support. As supporters startet to deliver dps everyone was crying.
    Sure our rotation could be better but no utility. No selfheal. No movement. We have blink and scorch. Thats enough.
    lvl90-Talents:
    Lets take a look:
    Shadows: Yeah another cd pressed on cooldown and nothing more. Beside the fact that nearly all shadows took the same talent because they are not all equal. Is that really fun? I dont think so.

    Warlocks: A movement tool (wait we have in in t1 they have it in t6 a little bit stronger but the rest was said above.
    Another 2mincd with dmg. Might be interresting but on the other side i dont see the fantastic new fun again. Just one more button to press.
    500% on aoe. Hell yeah thats the most overpowered and funniest talent ever in mop... wait.. i dont think that.

    Warrior: All i see are 3 cds. Some short some long. All do damage and all are used at cooldown. Again i dont see the fun.

    Hunter: Should i repeat me? 3 Cds. Mostly only one is choosen. One is for aoe one for singletarget. Fun? I dont see it.

    Shaman: Here we got 1. The elemental is really funny. But thats all. The other 2 are just cds again.

    Rogue: I dont say something here. As pointed out this class has their one major issues.

    The rest goes on. I dont look at all classes and i dont have all classes but to say that every other 90er talent is fun is imo just wrong.
    I know Mana in this talents is a problem. I as frost im afraid of invo 5.2 as it is on the ptr right now. But i hope that they will see that and fix it.
    Beside that manaproblem i dont have a problem with the 90er talents overall. As said from others. Invo is fine and should stay as it is. IW and RoP need some fixes but not a great overhaul.
    So just my 2 cent , now u can flame me.

  19. #119
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    If u dont switch Talents u dont get the most out of your char.
    Wrong. Elemental Blast is the best talent for any fight and situation. I'm sure there are other classes besides Shaman that have one talent for all situations too.
    Only Mages are gimped with their crappy lvl 90 talents.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Wrong. Elemental Blast is the best talent for any fight and situation. I'm sure there are other classes besides Shaman that have one talent for all situations too.
    Only Mages are gimped with their crappy lvl 90 talents.
    I'm pretty sure he was talking about mages for that part :U
    And he's right, any Mage who leaves their talents totally static is missing out.

    Ideally this would be true of all the tiers of the Mage tree and isn't, and ideally this would be true for all classes but it isn't, but we are getting there.

    I'm surprised he didn't bring up DK 90 talents to be honest.

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