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  1. #161
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I guess you missed the point that Soulstrike was arguing Cold Snap was good in PvE, and that my entire stance is about PvE, huh? Also, it's impossible to interrupt an instant cast. Evo instantly ticks you for 15% if you have IW.
    And according to you a 15% heal is barely useful. Let alone the fact you have to take IW for it to happen which doesn't happen a lot in PvE, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Again, more PvP shit when we were talking about PvE...
    Also, woah, now we're talking about me disregarding Ice Block? Odd how I haven't said "Ice Block" once in this entire thread.
    I know Ice Block is good, but I typically don't need a second one. Helpful as it may be, it boils down to "it's not worth losing G Invis/Cauterize".
    You say you're aware of how good Block is yet when you talk about Cold Snap in a PvE situation you seem to disregard the fact it gives you a second one; talking just about the heal rather than the fact it allows you to avoid more damage and therefore gives you more survivability.

    So far out of the fights I've done, G Invis is only good on H Elegon. I've heard it's good on other fights too, I just haven't gotten to them yet, and if you really want a 30% (15%) heal over a safety net like Cauterize, be my guest.
    It is a 30% (soon to be 15%) heal AS WELL AS RESETTING BLOCK; yes you have to wait 30s to use the second one but if you're taking that much damage in 30s you don't deserve to live.

    Now, it may well be behind GInvis and Cauterize; this doesn't make it 'useless', and there are a few (a very few) situations where Cold Snap will save you in PvE encounters this tier where Cauterize and GInvis won't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I still don't see a use for RoF in raiding. If it worked on Elegon, THEN I'd see some extreme awesomeness out of it, but it DOESN'T because his adds float. Lei Shi is the only fight where I can see SOME use. Feel free to tell me of other fights as I haven't heard any yet. (Tsulong = useless because the little adds should die instantly from breath and if they don't, they'll get loads of AoE which breaks it instantly. I could see some small use for H Wind Lord, but not much)
    HC Wind Lord it's actually near-useless. The fights where it comes into use are HC Will and HC Lei Shi predominantly, with an argument for HC Protectors as well. While sure, it's not a lot of fights I still get more use out of it than Frost Jaw AND Ice Ward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I feel that the L60 talents give me a choice of OP-ness, and that's it, though the L90 talents are what's supposed to REALLY make you feel OP. Cauterize does make me feel OP for sure. Cold Snap definitely doesn't, and G Invis does in some situations. Tell me what other talents make YOU feel OP.
    For me talents aren't things to 'make you feel OP', they are choices you can take to tackle different situations with. Just because some talents on other specs do make them OP doesn't necessarily mean this was the intended design; talents are there to try and make classes feel more unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    You could always ignore my thread. Just saying.
    Not my style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Also by your logic, I guess all other Mages who agree with me should just "re-roll", right? I love Mages. I have since BC (though there were some dark times in Cataclysm, I still loved them then, too), but this is just a mess atm and I'm really surprised there are some who don't see that purely because of our DPS and PvP (where only one specc is really viable in PvP, and relies completely on a dispellable 30s cooldown).
    If the other Mages believe the same as you (that Mages are currently in a bad place), then yes. This is only my opinion though. I personally can't stand people who are (seemingly) always unhappy with what they have just because someone else is better in a certain area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Godly and untouchable? Now you're just putting words in my mouth.
    This is the impression I get from the way you talk about certain talents/changes. You want QoL to be perfect (seemingly, anyway) and you seem to want everything to benefit you when in reality it just won't happen and nor should it. Every class should have both benefits and drawbacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    It's not that I won't completely disregard PvP, it's that when I'm arguing with someone about something PURELY in PvE (e.g., Cold Snap) and then people like you come along telling me "OMG IT'S AMAZING IN PvP HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THIS ANGRYRAGE!!!", out of context, it makes me look like an idiot.
    My bad, I apologise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    This is so 8 years ago.

    Dude this is 2013. Most of hard bosses requires a LOT of movement. Being rooted by talents is retard. Being rooted by talents that doesn't give much dps in return is even more retarded.

    If 100% uptime of RoP meant 1st on meters then we could talk about this immobile artillery. But it doesn't.

    Guess who will replace you if your mage fails to keep high output on the move?
    See, the place where I start to disagree is when I see that Mages compete well on almost every single fight this Tier, despite there being a 'large amount of movement' involved within the tier.

    Yes, Mages have been benched this tier at the top level of raiding, but so have almost all classes; getting a raid spot as a Boomkin during progression this tier was near-impossible for those in top guilds just because other classes do what they do but so much better.

    Honestly though, looking at HCs, I count 4 fights which require 'a lot' of movement. If there were more honestly Arcane wouldn't be as viable as it is because mobility does kill it. Sure it's possible to maintain 6 stacks while on the move and spamming Scorch, but that doesn't mean it's good DPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I'm not asking for homogenization. I don't want full mobility with all my spells, but I do want SOME level of mobility. Even just Scorch would be fine, but not when it's mixed with talents that prevent movement as well, and this is the core issue that I really have with Mages in raids (amongst a few other ones, but this is pretty bad)
    Neither Presence of Mind nor Ice Floes 'prevent' movement; they don't even discourage it. T1 was designed as a 'mobility' tier so as such Blazing Speed should probably have been in there with PoM either being made baseline or being removed and suitable replacement being implemented in T2; but that's just what we currently have to deal with.
    Homogenization is the worst thing about this game; people cry about other classes having X while their class only has Y and so Blizzard fixes it to keep people happy. If it carries on there's no point in even having 11 classes; might as well just have 2 classes; Melee class that can tank/dps and Caster class that can heal/dps.

    I know you don't want homogenization but adding more mobility to Mages will only make them more similar to other classes and that is exactly what homogenization is - everything becoming similar/the same.

  2. #162
    I like how i gave you four different legitimate uses for RoF and you ignored them.

    I'm just going to stop trying to show you mages aren't as "broken" as you believe they are in PvE, you ignore the facts and pick and choose what you want to hear.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    This is so 8 years ago.

    Dude this is 2013. Most of hard bosses requires a LOT of movement. Being rooted by talents is retard. Being rooted by talents that doesn't give much dps in return is even more retarded.

    If 100% uptime of RoP meant 1st on meters then we could talk about this immobile artillery. But it doesn't.

    Guess who will replace you if your mage fails to keep high output on the move?
    exactly what fight require "LOT of movement" in your book?? only ones i can think of is will,garalon

    only bad mages with >90% rop uptime will get replace derp
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  4. #164
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    And according to you a 15% heal is barely useful. Let alone the fact you have to take IW for it to happen which doesn't happen a lot in PvE, either.
    I was simply giving another example, though Evo glyph in PvE will outheal the hell out of CS. 40% Heal from every Invo and 1%HP1 from RoP.



    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    You say you're aware of how good Block is yet when you talk about Cold Snap in a PvE situation you seem to disregard the fact it gives you a second one; talking just about the heal rather than the fact it allows you to avoid more damage and therefore gives you more survivability.

    It is a 30% (soon to be 15%) heal AS WELL AS RESETTING BLOCK; yes you have to wait 30s to use the second one but if you're taking that much damage in 30s you don't deserve to live.
    I disregarded it because there's no question about which is the better choice in PvE. If you really want me to go edit my post, I'll go ahead and do that if it will get you to stop complaining. If you really need an immediate 30% (15%) heal in PvE, then your healers really suck at their job/you suck at Ice Barrier or Temporal Shield. An extra Ice Block just doesn't compare to how helpful G Invis and Cauterize are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Now, it may well be behind GInvis and Cauterize; this doesn't make it 'useless', and there are a few (a very few) situations where Cold Snap will save you in PvE encounters this tier where Cauterize and GInvis won't.
    In comparison, it's on the levels of useless. If it was, say, a normal talent choice in the old talent trees, I wouldn't ever call it useless because there were other options. It's like comparing Blazing Speed to TS/IB. Yes, it in itself isn't useless, but compared to TS/IB, it's a fucking joke of a 'choice'.

    I'd actually be open to hear of an encounter where CS will save you better than Caut/G Invis


    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    HC Wind Lord it's actually near-useless. The fights where it comes into use are HC Will and HC Lei Shi predominantly, with an argument for HC Protectors as well. While sure, it's not a lot of fights I still get more use out of it than Frost Jaw AND Ice Ward.
    As I haven't looked into those fights yet, would you explain to me how it's better? I'm assuming you mean Frost Nova and Cone of Cold for those, but I'd like to hear what you have to say on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    For me talents aren't things to 'make you feel OP', they are choices you can take to tackle different situations with. Just because some talents on other specs do make them OP doesn't necessarily mean this was the intended design; talents are there to try and make classes feel more unique.
    I wasn't expecting them to make you feel OP; that is DIRECTLY from Blizzard/Ghostcrawler's mouth(s), and they completely failed on that aspect with Mages (with the exception of L60).


    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Not my style.
    It was merely a suggestion. *shrug*

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    If the other Mages believe the same as you (that Mages are currently in a bad place), then yes. This is only my opinion though. I personally can't stand people who are (seemingly) always unhappy with what they have just because someone else is better in a certain area.
    I haven't been ALWAYS unhappy though. BC and LK I had little to no complaints. Cata I was only annoyed because Fire was piss poor in Firelands and towards the end of Tier 11. Being forced to play Arcane was the most annoying thing ever, but I still enjoyed being a Mage overall. This has been the first time where I feel that my class is just being neglected, especially after months of beta testing and people sending in piles upon piles of criticism, especially towards their dislike of the L90 talents. Deep Freeze and Shatter being available to all speccs was another concern that Mages actually DISliked and would have liked to keep it in Frost, but they didn't listen. In fact, now that I've gotten to play with the L90 talents, I would have much preferred Blast Wave, Dragon's Breath, and Slow (the original beta L90 talents) over these choices, because damage would have been buffed across the board to compensate for not having them.

    Now had I been bitching since I made my Mage during 2.4.3, then yes, I'd actually agree with you (though my supposed egotistical, pessimistic, negative nancy version that you see me as probably wouldn't, but that is not the case. I'm only unhappy with how they are so far in MoP, though I do have high hopes with that Invocation Damage nerf/QoL buff to it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    This is the impression I get from the way you talk about certain talents/changes. You want QoL to be perfect (seemingly, anyway) and you seem to want everything to benefit you when in reality it just won't happen and nor should it. Every class should have both benefits and drawbacks.
    There's a difference between balancing benefits and drawbacks, and having "okay, you can have fairly good damage, but only if you stand still". No other class has such a penalty like Rune of Power/Invocation, and especially not as their L90 talent (again, that Blizzard/GC claim are supposed to "make you feel OP"). I do know of a few classes that have management like Invocation, like Inquisition (Ret Paladin), Slice and Dice (Rogue), Savage Roar (Feral Druid), but this is on an even worse level than Sniper Training [LK version] (Survival Hunter). If you don't remember what Sniper Training is, it was an old Survival talent that made you stand still for more damage. Notice how it's been long gone. Why? Because PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE IT NOR FIND IT FUN. So it begs the question why they revived such a horrible aspect about Hunters into Mages L90 talents.

    All I'm asking is for a few tweaks that don't completely tank our DPS or make us ridiculously OP in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    My bad, I apologise.
    Thank you, though I do see how our conversation (our = Soulstrike and I) could easily be taken out of context, but I assure you, he was trying to get me to see how "good" Cold Snap is for PvE (to which he even said OP I think). I admit it has it's uses, but it's not worth it over the other choices (Blazing Speed suffers with the exact same issues, and the new change to it makes it even worse)


    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    See, the place where I start to disagree is when I see that Mages compete well on almost every single fight this Tier, despite there being a 'large amount of movement' involved within the tier.
    Well Fire hasn't been on top since the nerf, though their cleave is still quite good. Arcane is only doing amazing atm because of Scorch-weaving, which is like cheating in a sense. Frost hasn't been near the top at all at any point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Homogenization is the worst thing about this game; people cry about other classes having X while their class only has Y and so Blizzard fixes it to keep people happy. If it carries on there's no point in even having 11 classes; might as well just have 2 classes; Melee class that can tank/dps and Caster class that can heal/dps.
    I know you don't want homogenization but adding more mobility to Mages will only make them more similar to other classes and that is exactly what homogenization is - everything becoming similar/the same.
    I agree. Homogenization is what's been slowly killing this game since the 2nd half of LK, and even moreso in Cata. But, the core mechanic of "stand still to do DPS and move to do little to no DPS" is an old model that doesn't belong in today's WoW. Now, if Mages were #1 EVERY TIME, no matter what specc, on stand-still fights, THEN I could agree with you, because we're an artillery that doesn't move and does ridiculous damage. But, the problem is, we're not. Arcane KIND of is with scorch-weaving (which again I see as cheating in a sense because it wasn't intended), but it's not doing like 10-20% more than the next specc. "Doing competitive DPS" with the drawback of standing still isn't fair when you look at Warlocks "Doing competitive DPS" and not being forced to stand still at all.

    Yes, comparing talent A of class B to talent X of class Y is generally bad. When it's a core mechanic of a ROLE (and not a class), then it's a bit different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    exactly what fight require "LOT of movement" in your book?? only ones i can think of is will,garalon

    only bad mages with >90% rop uptime will get replace derp
    (mostly referring to normal fights as I haven't progressed too far into heroic yet)
    MSV: Stone Guards, Spirit Kings, Elegon [mostly during P3], Will
    HoF: Vizier [Attenuation], Blade Lord, Garalon, Wind Lord [Depending on RNG; the Corrosive Resin and Wind Bombs], Amber-Shaper [RNG of the little guys that spawn/P3 Heroic?], Empress [If you have Cry of Terror/P3]
    ToES: Tsulong, Lei Shi [only during Get Away]

    Those are "a LOT of movement" fights in my book. Stone Guards, Spirit Kings, Will, Garalon (when kiting) and Tsulong are among the worst because they require constant replacing of RoP.

    Btw, a lot of movement != constantly moving. It means "the more times you use your WADQE keys, the more 'movement' is involved", in a Mage's eyes, because having to tap one movement key instantly ruins your Invocation, and probably getting you out of your rune.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-01-16 at 09:44 AM.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    So by your logic, Hunters and Warlocks are like the same class? Okay.
    Thats all? Thats your argument. Poor guy. But ill explain. I was talking about the point movement. One of the points the hole discussion is about. And in this point is like you said warlock and hunter the same. They both do dmg while moving. And all i said is i dont want that. This specific point. Not more not less. But i know all u can is mimimi and so you dont have an argument.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    This is so 8 years ago.

    Dude this is 2013. Most of hard bosses requires a LOT of movement. Being rooted by talents is retard. Being rooted by talents that doesn't give much dps in return is even more retarded.

    If 100% uptime of RoP meant 1st on meters then we could talk about this immobile artillery. But it doesn't.

    Guess who will replace you if your mage fails to keep high output on the move?
    As said above: At which encounter have u heavy movement. I think it belongs to the point heavy. What is heavy movement? I think its a personal understanding.
    So in my case its fine. Sure we have a little bit more movement than in classic. But who cares. Its part of our class. Why could in this raidenviroment not be a place for a standing caster? All speak about uniqueness of mages and all cry for homogenization with moving casters. Thats biting.
    To the meters: We are not discussing dmg. We are discussing the feeling and acting of the class. As said above: First Design, then damage. And i didnt say rop is fine. All i said is that casted rooting is fine.
    Maybe u know League of Legends: There is a char called Xerath. He is a artillery mage. He can cast while moving with a short range and dmg. And he can build up. He then roots to the ground and gets more range, dmg etc.
    I like this idea. Maybe the other way: Standing and casting and sometimes activate move and castsspell. But it should have heavy disadvantages (not 30% lower movespeed -.-).
    I personal like the idea of Icy flows. Its exactly in my preferences. The problem is scorch. But i dont say more as this is said everywhere else.
    Last edited by Tomathan; 2013-01-16 at 06:31 AM.

  6. #166
    Why are you moving a lot in Elegon P3? All you need to do is sidestep out of lightning.
    Elegon barely requires any movement at all for the whole fight...

    Wind Lord also barely requires movement, on heroic we just CC all the ambershapers and so wind bombs are all you have to move for (that's one sidestep every 30 seconds).
    Amber-Shaper you only have to move if the laser is targetting you.
    Empress you only have to move with the debuff and that is one blink into the silence zones and then a sidestep out of it.
    Tsulong you can stand still for 90% of the fight except when you need to clear stacks once every 30 seconds.

    Your definition of heavy movement seems to be "any fight where I'm not glued to the floor" :x
    If you only have to move three feet then your DPS isn't even interrupted! Mages lose almost nothing for having to side step every 20 seconds.
    Having to tap a movement key does not "ruin your invocation" unless you are a massive idiot because all of the abilities are broadcast well ahead of time. It also doesn't ruin your Rune of Power because it takes one GCD to recast, and if you're smart you were standing on the edge of it anyway so you don't even have to recast it because you can sidestep and stay inside of it.

    Pre-cast a RoP inside the silence zone on Empress! Pre-place two runes next to each other so you can sidestep! This is all simplicity itself! You shouldn't need to be told! I am beginning to understand why you dislike the 90 talents though, there seems to be a distinct lack of foresight and raid awareness in your tactics...

    I am actually really worried about how you are doing these fights if you consider Windlord, Tsulong, Elegon, Amber Shaper and Empress to be extremely focused around mobile DPS when I barely have to move at all while doing them. If you ever have to cut an invocation on one of those fights it is your own fault.
    You should be losing very little damage to movement on any fight that isn't Stone Guards, Spirit Kings, Will, Blade Lord (only if you are unlucky), Garalon or Lei Shi. And it only matters for Garalon if you are kiting, the rest of the time you are 100% fine.
    You should also still be able to easily time Invocations on virtually all of them as long as you have DBM or the like! Rune of Power is similarly not too difficult to maintain 100% of the time as long as you can plan ahead.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-01-16 at 06:45 AM.

  7. #167
    Can they please just make RoP instant cast with an infinite duration, thus making the spell instantaneously awesome?

    Rather, just make it infinite duration, or instant cast. Give us a glyph for it, do something!!!

  8. #168
    The cast time of RoP is always identical to your global cooldown, the only difference between it and an instant cast spell is that it cannot be cast while moving.
    I honestly don't see why that would be such a massive change as people keep implying, you are rarely moving for that long that it ends up being a factor...

  9. #169
    Dreadlord
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    You´re missing a few boss abilities Imnick.

    Tsulong: Nightmares can, no, is a bitch for a mage (especially arcane) and you have to move out, if adds spawn bad relative to your point (out of range, don´t lose your stacks)
    Empress: Fixate, Consuming Terror and Visions of Demise are always not welcome

    A "little" on Blade Lord if unlucky? What about Blade Tempest, Storm Unleashed and Unseen Strike? Or are you talking about LFR?
    Spirit Kings a "little", seriously? You have to move there for: Maddening, Flankings, Qiangs Annihilate, Pillage, Volley, Rain of Arrows and Undying Shadows - and those abilities like to cut across.

    Windlord is strategy dependent, imho.

    There are some bosses, that requires a lot of movement, which clearly favours locks and hunters and dot classes.

  10. #170
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    just a repeat but:
    RoP: 15% x 60/61.5 (before haste)
    Invocation: 15% x 60/63 (before haste)

    Why to you want to choose Invocation when you can have a better uptime for the same buff ....
    The answers is 42
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  11. #171
    Blade Tempest you can stay entirely stationary inside your rune casting scorch and keep your stacks up with Arcane Explosion. Hunters and Warlocks will do more than you here definitely but you're not going to be doing nothing.
    Storm Unleashed you can't DPS anyway because he's on the other side of the room.
    Unseen Strike you also know is coming, can't DPS until he arrives because he's invisible and can immediately blink back to where you were once you are hit.
    Easily dealt with, very little DPS lost to moving. The main times when you would lose a lot of DPS (Unseen Strike, Storm Unleashed) it is no better being a DoT caster because... he's completely un-targetable.

    Nightmares I will grant you can be a bit of a pain but if your raid is properly spread isn't that much of an issue.

    Spirit Kings I've never had any issue staying in a rune for, precast two before the fight and annihilate because a cinch. Just open your eyes a bit and you'll be able to see flankings. You'll be stacking on a designated point for Maddening so again, place a rune in advance and blink onto it. Pillage is only an issue if it lands directly on you because you need to be spread, Volley ditto, Rain of Arrows... again the same. Undying shadows is the only one that causes a great deal of DPS loss and that's complete RNG.

    Fixate will have most of its duration gone already if you just blink away. Consuming Terror comes at regular predictable intervals and you only need two runes to be able to just step through the boss into the other (and wow, you get two runes!). Undying Shadows will hurt a bit but you might not even get it.

  12. #172
    Dreadlord
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    So everything is okay and we are just fine. Blizzard keep on the good work? Any logs to prove your "easy this and easy that" argumentation?

  13. #173
    Sure!

    An Arcane Mage has the second highest total DPS rank on Spirit Kings ten heroic for instance! With 88% RoP uptime, clearly this fight challenges us!
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8918&e=9210
    And look who has the highest DPS on Spirit Kings twenty five heroic... another Arcane Mage! With 89% uptime!
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a...?s=2281&e=2735
    I can't quite manage 88% yet but I've been sitting this fight the past few weeks because I don't need any gear from it
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8428&e=8888

    So spirit kings we clearly have no problem with whatsoever... in fact we're better at it than literally every other class according to the world of logs reports you asked me to get for you. Perhaps you should have checked yourself before throwing that question out there?

    On Blade Lord Ta'Yak, the #1 world's highest DPS spot for Blade Lord is... an Arcane Mage. Look how much we're suffering on this fight! Poor us
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...?s=9138&e=9521
    In third place... another Arcane Mage
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6...?s=2215&e=2557

    So it looks like not only do we not have problems with Blade Lord either, but again we're literally the best DPS class to bring for the fight.
    How can that be true?? I thought we were Blizzard's least favourite class with all the obstacles stacked against us?????

    On Shek'Zeer tanks dominate the DPS meters, but we still have some high logging Arcane Mages
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...?s=6092&e=6837 90% RoP uptime.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...?s=1478&e=2260 90% RoP uptime.
    So hard to stay in RoP for this fight isn't it :'(

    I have to thank you for asking me this question!
    I thought Mages were merely doing alright in this tier, but what you've actually managed to prove to me is that we're not only alright we're actually the best DPS class in the game for the bosses that were named.

    You asked for World of Logs reports and you got them and they have crushed basically everything you just said. Anything else you want?
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-01-16 at 09:28 AM.

  14. #174
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Because DPS is the only thing that matters, clearly. /le sarcasm
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Because DPS is the only thing that matters, clearly. /le sarcasm
    What the hell is wrong with you? Did you read the rest of this page? Did you decide to just read my post and no others?
    I linked World of Logs because:

    A) We were talking about DPS, and how Dragon's estimations of DPS you lose while moving were drastically inaccurate (as are many of his opinions about the Mage class). Mages can actually deal with movement DPS on many bosses without all that much trouble if they know what they are doing.
    B) HE EXPLICITLY ASKED ME TO LINK WORLD OF LOGS.

    I am honestly baffled at why you think that "DPS isn't important" is an appropriate response to someone literally telling me to link World of Logs reports.
    If I ask you to post a picture of a cat I'm not then going to respond to it by saying "Cats are irrelevant to this discussion!", because I asked you to post it! You would have been answering my request!
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-01-16 at 09:40 AM.

  16. #176
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    What the hell is wrong with you? Did you read the rest of this page? Did you decide to just read my post and no others?
    I linked World of Logs because:

    A) We were talking about DPS, and how Dragon's estimations of DPS you lose while moving were drastically inaccurate (as are many of his opinions about the Mage class). Mages can actually deal with movement DPS on many bosses without all that much trouble if they know what they are doing.
    B) HE EXPLICITLY ASKED ME TO LINK WORLD OF LOGS.

    I am honestly baffled at why you think that "DPS isn't important" is an appropriate response to someone literally telling me to link World of Logs reports.
    If I ask you to post a picture of a cat I'm not then going to respond to it by saying "Cats are irrelevant to this discussion!", because I asked you to post it! You would have been answering my request!
    What the hell is wrong with me? It's twenty to two, I have a good part of a bottle of Johnny Walker Black in me, and I am le tired of people using DPS as a jusfication for the retension of shitty talents, Lhivera.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  17. #177
    The Level 90 talents add an additional complexity to the otherwise fairly standard rotation of a direct damage caster.
    We don't have multiple DoTs and there is nothing else to track, people complain that Mage rotations are too boring... That is exactly why these talents exist.

    They reward you for encounter knowledge, ingenuity, advance planning and skill.
    They turn an otherwise fairly standard class into one that rewards mastery of play.

    The fact that Dragon has absolutely no idea how to use them demonstrates that they aren't easy to learn, the fact that Mages who do know how to use them are doing more DPS on bosses that Dragon has difficulty using them on than literally every single other class in the game demonstrates that they provide a tangible reward for learning how they work.

    You may not like the Level 90 talents, but claiming that they were objectively shittily designed, serve no purpose or haven't met that purpose just isn't true by any stretch of the imagination. You can still subjectively claim that they're not to your taste if you want, but the only answer I can give to that is "tough".
    That is why I love them.

    PS: I was still only talking about DPS because I was asked to :U
    If Dragon3590238402 claims that Mage DPS while moving is awful and then lists the bosses upon which his Mage movement DPS is awful, it is entirely relevant and on-topic to show him how utterly wrong he is.



    I also want to add that I think it's absolutely hilarious how people keep making discussions that have nothing to do with Lhivera about Lhivera. How incredibly hypocritical!
    He's definitely not a particularly helpful MvP and I'd rather we had someone that, you know, actually raided. But isn't one of the key reasons you hate him so much his tendency to derail topics with completely irrelevant complaints about a different spec?
    Like for example... deciding to randomly start talking about an MvP when nobody else on the page had mentioned him? That kind of derailing? The sort of thing you are in fact doing yourself right now?
    Maybe you should come back when you are less drunk.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-01-16 at 09:54 AM.

  18. #178
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    As said above: At which encounter have u heavy movement. I think it belongs to the point heavy. What is heavy movement? I think its a personal understanding.
    So in my case its fine. Sure we have a little bit more movement than in classic. But who cares. Its part of our class. Why could in this raidenviroment not be a place for a standing caster? All speak about uniqueness of mages and all cry for homogenization with moving casters. Thats biting.
    To the meters: We are not discussing dmg. We are discussing the feeling and acting of the class. As said above: First Design, then damage. And i didnt say rop is fine. All i said is that casted rooting is fine.
    Maybe u know League of Legends: There is a char called Xerath. He is a artillery mage. He can cast while moving with a short range and dmg. And he can build up. He then roots to the ground and gets more range, dmg etc.
    I like this idea. Maybe the other way: Standing and casting and sometimes activate move and castsspell. But it should have heavy disadvantages (not 30% lower movespeed -.-).
    I personal like the idea of Icy flows. Its exactly in my preferences. The problem is scorch. But i dont say more as this is said everywhere else.
    The problem is ANY movement instantly tanks our DPS if we're in the middle of Invocation, and hurts if we have to move out of RoP. It doubly hurts because (unless Fire/Frost with Hot Streak/FoF/BF proccs) we have SHIT for DPS on the move. Heavy movement is one thing. The tiniest of movements is what hurts us 10x more than any other class.

    Also, this isn't asking for homogenization, this is asking for some level of movement where we don't get doubly fucked from it.

    The comparison with Xerath is a huge stretch. He gets extra range and damage and whatnot when you root him. Now if on a stand-still fight, Mages were #1 EVERY TIME, then it'd be okay (shitty, but at least it'd have SOME level of understanding: Artillery = Best DPS), but that's NOT the case (and even then I'd still dislike the playstyle, but it would have some level of class flavor) with Mages like it is in the hands of a skilled Xerath.

    I, too, like the idea of Icy Floes, but it wasn't executed correctly; it's simply too weak compared to Scorch, and PoM just needs loads of help as the only one who would even consider taking it is Fire for an extra 1-3 Pyros for a Combustion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Why are you moving a lot in Elegon P3? All you need to do is sidestep out of lightning.
    Elegon barely requires any movement at all for the whole fight...
    Dodge lightning, adds, and especially re-entering P1 when they come to fuck you. Keep in mind on Heroic that you cannot target things outside the ring, meaning they'll most likely enter the ring before you can really attack them (this was also when I was Frost, with the best AoE of my group. Now that I'm Arcane, this will probably be a different story)

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Wind Lord also barely requires movement, on heroic we just CC all the ambershapers and so wind bombs are all you have to move for (that's one sidestep every 30 seconds).
    And corrosive resin, hence why I said movement was RNG on that fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Amber-Shaper you only have to move if the laser is targetting you.
    Another RNG fight, but RNG nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Empress you only have to move with the debuff and that is one blink into the silence zones and then a sidestep out of it.
    P1: Cry of Terror, P2: Making traps/kiting, P3: Get out of bad stuff/debuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Tsulong you can stand still for 90% of the fight except when you need to clear stacks once every 30 seconds.
    30s seems a bit of a stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I am actually really worried about how you are doing these fights if you consider Windlord, Tsulong, Elegon, Amber Shaper and Empress to be extremely focused around mobile DPS when I barely have to move at all while doing them. If you ever have to cut an invocation on one of those fights it is your own fault.
    You should also still be able to easily time Invocations on virtually all of them as long as you have DBM or the like! Rune of Power is similarly not too difficult to maintain 100% of the time as long as you can plan ahead.
    Odd, I didn't say they're focused around mobile DPS but rather I listed fights in which you can get fucked with Invo/be forced out of your RoP. Regardless, either one doubly screws Mages because they also can't cast their normal spells while other classes just can't cast normal spells (and not have to deal with Invo/RoP).

    So you're telling me Invocation was perfectly thought out around knowing when literally everything is coming up? So Wind Bomb, Whirling Blade, and Corrosive Resin are all timed perfectly for this, in addition to lining up with your 35~45s window and there's no possible way RNG can fuck you pretty hard on that, yeah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    just a repeat but:
    RoP: 15% x 60/61.5 (before haste)
    Invocation: 15% x 60/63 (before haste)

    Why to you want to choose Invocation when you can have a better uptime for the same buff ....
    RoP forces you to plant yourself there, and you may need to recast it. Invocation is cast one and don't bother for 60s. With the change, I'll never be choosing RoP for Fire/Frost because I like the extra freedom Invo gives over RoP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Sure!

    An Arcane Mage has the second highest total DPS rank on Spirit Kings ten heroic for instance! With 88% RoP uptime, clearly this fight challenges us!
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8918&e=9210
    And look who has the highest DPS on Spirit Kings twenty five heroic... another Arcane Mage! With 89% uptime!
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a...?s=2281&e=2735
    I can't quite manage 88% yet but I've been sitting this fight the past few weeks because I don't need any gear from it
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8428&e=8888

    So spirit kings we clearly have no problem with whatsoever... in fact we're better at it than literally every other class according to the world of logs reports you asked me to get for you. Perhaps you should have checked yourself before throwing that question out there?

    On Blade Lord Ta'Yak, the #1 world's highest DPS spot for Blade Lord is... an Arcane Mage. Look how much we're suffering on this fight! Poor us
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...?s=9138&e=9521
    In third place... another Arcane Mage
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6...?s=2215&e=2557

    So it looks like not only do we not have problems with Blade Lord either, but again we're literally the best DPS class to bring for the fight.
    How can that be true?? I thought we were Blizzard's least favourite class with all the obstacles stacked against us?????

    On Shek'Zeer tanks dominate the DPS meters, but we still have some high logging Arcane Mages
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...?s=6092&e=6837 90% RoP uptime.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...?s=1478&e=2260 90% RoP uptime.
    So hard to stay in RoP for this fight isn't it :'(

    I have to thank you for asking me this question!
    I thought Mages were merely doing alright in this tier, but what you've actually managed to prove to me is that we're not only alright we're actually the best DPS class in the game for the bosses that were named.

    You asked for World of Logs reports and you got them and they have crushed basically everything you just said. Anything else you want?
    I think it's really cute you argue this when all you're doing is linking Arcane Mages and all of them using the Scorch-weave method, which is being nerfed as of 5.2. Also, the only point I was bringing up when I referred to the "a lot of movement" fights was that RoP and Invo have some serious issues (especially when it comes to fun) on them, and you're linking the WORLD TOP players who, let's be honest, have a lot more skill than you or I or the general community. That's what makes them world top DPS players. Are they having fun managing Rune of Power though? That's another question, but also notice how you didn't link a single Arcane Barrage Mage, nor a Fire nor Frost Mage.

    Regardless, you'll get fucked, plenty of times with Invocation and plenty of the time, it won't be your fault. I could sit here tell you countless stories about Elegon P3 lightning or puddles, mines, and chains on Stone Guards. Neither of these two talents are a fun mechanic and do nothing but frustrate players.

    Finally, keep in mind the main point of my thread. The state of Mages is that we're not a fun class atm due to QoL. Scorch-Weaving Arcane is currently our only DPS specc if we want to be competitive, as Frost, Fire, and ABarr Arcane are mediocre if you're trying to be the top, and Scorch-Weaving is being removed which will boil down to not only having these annoying QoL issues, but also having three mediocre DPS speccs to choose from (oh and RoP is also being nerfed for Arcane, which will pretty much seal the deal on Arcane being fully mediocre).

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  19. #179
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    The Level 90 talents add an additional complexity to the otherwise fairly standard rotation of a direct damage caster.
    We don't have multiple DoTs and there is nothing else to track, people complain that Mage rotations are too boring... That is exactly why these talents exist.

    They reward you for encounter knowledge, ingenuity, advance planning and skill.
    They turn an otherwise fairly standard class into one that rewards mastery of play.

    The fact that Dragon has absolutely no idea how to use them demonstrates that they aren't easy to learn, the fact that Mages who do know how to use them are doing more DPS on bosses that Dragon has difficulty using them on than literally every single other class in the game demonstrates that they provide a tangible reward for learning how they work.

    You may not like the Level 90 talents, but claiming that they were objectively shittily designed, serve no purpose or haven't met their purpose just isn't true. You can still subjectively claim that they're not to your taste if you want, but the only answer I can give to that is "tough".
    That is why I love them.


    Prime logic you have there. Mage rotations are boring, let's add three talents shared between all specs rather than focusing on the base rotations of the specs themselves. There exist other methods to add diversity and variety to rotations without resorting to clunky maintenance buffs that are tied to a mechanic only one out of three specializations employ.

    You sound exactly like the Cataclysm-era Arcane Mage trying to convince themselves and others that the spec had something other than an infinitesimal skill threshold.

    I can claim they are objectively shittily designed for the simple reason that they are tied to mana, and only Arcane cares about mana. Among other things.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  20. #180
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    A) We were talking about DPS, and how Dragon's estimations of DPS you lose while moving were drastically inaccurate (as are many of his opinions about the Mage class). Mages can actually deal with movement DPS on many bosses without all that much trouble if they know what they are doing.
    B) HE EXPLICITLY ASKED ME TO LINK WORLD OF LOGS.
    So my own opinions are inaccurate? Who the fuck made you so high and mighty to tell me what I find fun isn't actually fun?

    And just for the record, it wasn't me that asked for WoLs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 05:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    The fact that Dragon has absolutely no idea how to use them demonstrates that they aren't easy to learn, the fact that Mages who do know how to use them are doing more DPS on bosses that Dragon has difficulty using them on than literally every single other class in the game demonstrates that they provide a tangible reward for learning how they work.
    Oh, okay. I point out a few instances where they aren't the best, and suddenly I have no idea how to use them. Fantastic.

    The next time you use Invocation and a puddle spawns under you because of random RNG, just remember, I'll be laughing at your misfortune.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 05:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Prime logic you have there. Mage rotations are boring, let's add three talents shared between all specs rather than focusing on the base rotations of the specs themselves. There exist other methods to add diversity and variety to rotations without resorting to clunky maintenance buffs that are tied to a mechanic only one out of three specializations employ.

    You sound exactly like the Cataclysm-era Arcane Mage trying to convince themselves and others that the spec had something other than an infinitesimal skill threshold.

    I can claim they are objectively shittily designed for the simple reason that they are tied to mana, and only Arcane cares about mana. Among other things.
    Exactly. "We see you have a boring rotation, so lets ruin your L90 tier and give you a boring maintenance buff to keep up. Oh, it'll also fuck you over movement-wise".

    They could have bumped up our rotation or even revamped Mages like they did Warlocks (hell, half the spells in my Warlock's spellbook I definitely don't remember from the Cataclysm era). Instead, they did an extremely lazy move and fucked us over, and I'm baffled that people like you (nick) defend such dick moves.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

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