1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Oh, and what he meant by that other haste breakpoint is the point where Imp Swarms cooldown is reduced enough to give you a proc of the passive effect in between casting Imp Swarm with DS (ie when the CD is reduced by 24 seconds or more).
    I'm pretty sure that's a number we hit passively at this point, no? I sit at 3036 on live, and before I got my 4 set this was happening.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Furthermore, that's assuming that the ONLY proc we have up is Lei Shen when we initially cast it, which would be some horrid luck.
    I spent well over an hour hitting a training dummy with the trinket tonight. Never had it proc during DS, and the only proc it ever lined up with was Jade Spirit, and even that was only once or twice.

    The proc chance is insanely low; something like .01% according to the math given in the initial explanation of RPPM.

    Quote Originally Posted by 68927995382
    For example, if you have 22% Haste, it was 1.4sec since the last chance to proc, and you’ve got Windsong, then the chance to proc is 2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.[/li][li]The ‘time since the last chance to proc’ is capped at 10sec, so that your first attack of a fight isn’t a guaranteed proc.[/li][/ul]
    As I mentioned, on live I have 3036 Haste, which is something like 12.6% with the 5% raid buff. Going with the 1.4 seconds since the last chance to proc that's given in the description (It will often be less than a second since last chance to proc due to DoT ticks and ToC having the short GCD) we have a equation of: 0.5(ppm) * 1.126(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 = 0.013136% chance for a proc. More often than not, the chance will be even lower than that. Our initial cast has the 10 second time since last chance, giving a 0.09383% chance for a proc...

    That considered, massive dry spells will happen frequently. Personally, I'll be looking at other trinkets as I expect their values to increase dramatically when given the same treatment in Simcraft that Zinnin gave this trinket.


    Also, I edited the default APL specifically for the Unnering Vision of Lei Shen, so it is going to be higher on this list then it might be in practice.
    Last edited by Teye; 2013-03-01 at 01:10 PM.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's a number we hit passively at this point, no? I sit at 3036 on live, and before I got my 4 set this was happening.
    Probably. But perhaps it's the next one yet, a CD reduction of 48 seconds or more (or whatever it comes out to with haste)?

  3. #283
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Plus, I don't honestly think that affdots will ever claim it's a good idea to refresh it outside of Lei Shen.
    On PTR it was showing that I should refresh it when DS + a Trinket was up to get 'more damage'. What I meant by it losing its status as a heavy hitting DoT is that we will no longer be worried about trying to stack doom as much as we can, instead we will be worried at making sure it is always critting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Personally, I'll be looking at other trinkets as I expect their values to increase dramatically when given the same treatment in Simcraft that Zinnin gave this trinket.
    Nothing I did with the APL for other trinkets brought them even remotely close. The DPS variance for using Lei Shen though is crazy huge, probably even more then fire mages had in cata.
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2013-03-01 at 02:08 PM.

  4. #284
    That is not a comforting thought. Perhaps it might be best to forgo that trinket entirely if there's the option of being that bad...

  5. #285
    What I want to know is whether this trinket is going to have the same kind of impact on the spec as the Moonwell Chalice, where in effect raiding without it just isn't viable. So far, if what you're saying is true, it's not looking good.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    What I want to know is whether this trinket is going to have the same kind of impact on the spec as the Moonwell Chalice, where in effect raiding without it just isn't viable. So far, if what you're saying is true, it's not looking good.
    I don't think you have anything to worry about Jessicka. There's only about 7k between the highest incarnation of that one and the next highest trinket. No where close to the absurdity that was MWC. Plus, according to Zinnin, there's a lot of dps variance meaning that one fight you could do amazing with good procs, or other fights you could do abysmal with bad procs. In my opinion it might be better to go with a more stable, albeit slightly less potent option.

    Meaning, that if one were to opt out of said trinket, the valor trinket is actually one of the two best options. I feel like it should be all but mandatory to buy said trinket ASAP.
    Last edited by Xorn; 2013-03-01 at 02:42 PM.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    What I want to know is whether this trinket is going to have the same kind of impact on the spec as the Moonwell Chalice, where in effect raiding without it just isn't viable. So far, if what you're saying is true, it's not looking good.
    I think you might have a fair point. For Affliction it's easy to deal with, you refresh dots all the time. For Demo though, you'd have to play around it, always making sure you have enough fury, always making sure you can enter Meta and put Doom up. It's not as clunky as the Doomguard snapshotting, petswapping Moonwell Chalice was, but it is extra effort. And then you get the point you were making: if it means Demo is balanced on the huge variance this trinket brings with Doom then Demo is kinda screwed. =/
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  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    I think you might have a fair point. For Affliction it's easy to deal with, you refresh dots all the time. For Demo though, you'd have to play around it, always making sure you have enough fury, always making sure you can enter Meta and put Doom up. It's not as clunky as the Doomguard snapshotting, petswapping Moonwell Chalice was, but it is extra effort. And then you get the point you were making: if it means Demo is balanced on the huge variance this trinket brings with Doom then Demo is kinda screwed. =/
    Have you seen some of the numbers though? Going by most early reports Demo is doing quite well for itself without said trinket.

    ---Edit---

    Plus, at least this time around the trinket is universally crazy. Boomkins, Spriests, Fire Mages, they're ALL going to want this, and it will swing them around just as hard as us.
    Last edited by Xorn; 2013-03-01 at 02:51 PM.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Have you seen some of the numbers though? Going by most early reports Demo is doing quite well for itself without said trinket.
    Some of the early reports I've seen also have Affliction Sacrifice still doing VERY well. Not sure what to make of it all anymore. >.<
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  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    Also, I edited the default APL specifically for the Unnering Vision of Lei Shen, so it is going to be higher on this list then it might be in practice.

    Did you test casting Doom on the final stack of http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96413/wu...-final-choice? I would think that would be a fairly large deal considering how much easier the play style would be.

    Something we're forgetting here is that Simcraft is a computer, meaning that its reacting perfectly to every proc of Vision. Regardless of player skill, we're all bound to have that thing proc while our pants are down at least once, which is enough to steer me away from it.


    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Some of the early reports I've seen also have Affliction Sacrifice still doing VERY well. Not sure what to make of it all anymore. >.<
    In T15 BiS gear, yeah. Not in LFR or even T15 Normal gear though.

  11. #291
    I'm not 100% convinced that this trinket is so amazingly good. Unbuffed doom crits for the same amount that dark soul ticks hit. How much damage does every imp? Rougly 100k?

    If you take in account that the playstyle with this trinket feels clunky (atleast without t15) and the times when it takes 5 minutes to procc (had even longer periodes without proccs while raidtesting) i dont think that it is 7k better than the 2. best. The heroic version has a higher procc chance, lets hope that its noticable.

    Even i wish to have a on use raidtrinket now just to get rid of those rppm abominations, and everyone knows that i dont like them because of engineering gloves.

    @ Xorn, why would a firemage use this trinket? Its pretty useless for them, except they can time it with combustion, something that will probably never happen if you are not incredible lucky. Balance, Shadows, Demos, every other specc got better options.
    Last edited by Apero; 2013-03-01 at 02:58 PM.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Some of the early reports I've seen also have Affliction Sacrifice still doing VERY well. Not sure what to make of it all anymore. >.<
    True, but, again, this trinket is crazy good for everyone. In fact, many other classes have some funky interactions when their DoTs crit, even more so than extra Imps. If anything, it will be a harder swing for them than for us.

  13. #293
    Apero, you're missing the point. Its not about the Imp damage, or the Doom damage. Its about the Fury generation. Each Imp generates 50 Fury, and you're going to get at least 6 Imps per proc on the trinket.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Apero, you're missing the point. Its not about the Imp damage, or the Doom damage. Its about the Fury generation. Each Imp generates 50 Fury, and you're going to get at least 6 Imps per proc on the trinket.
    With t15 gear you are swimming in fury anyway. Besides, to play this trinket to full potential you need to stay in meta longer after every hog. This is a waste of fury without any cd or procc active.

    But i get this point.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    In T15 BiS gear, yeah. Not in LFR or even T15 Normal gear though.
    Yeah, I said it in the Affliction thread that I suspect it might be something we gravitate to once we get the gear for it. Simming myself now to see what the realistic results for myself would be. Even then I'd still like to see some more Sim results by some more people, and possibly an "official" SimC list to see where things are at, not just for us, but for other classes as well.
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  16. #296
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    No, it is all about the Imp damage. In heroic t14 every wild Imp will average nearly 200k damage, on top of the doom damage. These also generate an extra 50 fury and will generally give you at least 1 extra soul fire proc. In my sims you will gain on average 20-25% more wild imps through the fight, this is a huge deal. Just a single proc over 6 minutes is worth 1.5k + DPS assuming you get only 3 extra imps from it.

    I will be spending more time today going through the demo APL and seeing what other increases I can find, the default list is pretty terrible. It currently is stacking full crit which is pretty devauled using this trinkets.

    As for the trinket being good for everyone, the initial lists for other classes aren't using it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Did you test casting Doom on the final stack of http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96413/wu...-final-choice? I would think that would be a fairly large deal considering how much easier the play style would be.

    Something we're forgetting here is that Simcraft is a computer, meaning that its reacting perfectly to every proc of Vision. Regardless of player skill, we're all bound to have that thing proc while our pants are down at least once, which is enough to steer me away from it.
    I will be going over other trinket combinations for sure. Unerring vision will be a strong trinket on single target \ multi-dotting, however I don't think it will be very strong for AoE situations and will look for alternatives for those scenarios.

    My initial thoughts on Wushoolays is that even with 15k int your doom isn't going to be that much stronger then a DS'ed Doom which will be the cast 75% of the time. There might be some damage to be gained there but it isn't going to be a huge change.
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2013-03-01 at 03:11 PM.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Apero View Post
    With t15 gear you are swimming in fury anyway. Besides, to play this trinket to full potential you need to stay in meta longer after every hog. This is a waste of fury without any cd or procc active.

    But i get this point.

    As you said, we'll be swimming in Fury, so the extra time spent in Meta really might be preventing us from capping when you consider the Fury from the 12+ Imps we'll have up.

    I'm also very curious if the Imps generate 10% more fury with the T15 4 set. If they do, that makes this trinket even more appealing.

    I'm attempting to play devil's advocate about the trinket... I'm still leaning away from it personally, but I can see why it could be dangerously good.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 10:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    As for the trinket being good for everyone, the initial lists for other classes aren't using it at all.

    Boomkins are literally pissing themselves over it. It will be BiS for them, without question.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    No, it is all about the Imp damage. In heroic t14 every wild Imp will average nearly 200k damage, on top of the doom damage. These also generate an extra 50 fury and will generally give you at least 1 extra soul fire proc. In my sims you will gain on average 20-25% more wild imps through the fight, this is a huge deal. Just a single proc over 6 minutes is worth 1.5k + DPS assuming you get only 3 extra imps from it.

    I will be spending more time today going through the demo APL and seeing what other increases I can find, the default list is pretty terrible. It currently is stacking full crit which is pretty devauled using this trinkets.

    As for the trinket being good for everyone, the initial lists for other classes aren't using it at all.
    That's dumb for them then. Spriests T15 bonuses will have great synergy with their DoT crits, greatly extending their duration and proccing the questionable apparitions. Boomkins get instant Starsurge procs as far as I know on DoT crits as well. Fire Mages, well, you know their deal. Just because these classes aren't using the trinket doesn't mean that they shouldn't be.

  19. #299
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    That's dumb for them then. Spriests T15 bonuses will have great synergy with their DoT crits, greatly extending their duration and proccing the questionable apparitions. Boomkins get instant Starsurge procs as far as I know on DoT crits as well. Fire Mages, well, you know their deal. Just because these classes aren't using the trinket doesn't mean that they shouldn't be.
    I can see it being a good option for Boomkins and maybe spriests. But Fire mages damage isn't going to skyrocket from an extra crit or two that happens randomly. It feels pretty weak unless you are doing something with DoTs.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    On PTR it was showing that I should refresh it when DS + a Trinket was up to get 'more damage'. What I meant by it losing its status as a heavy hitting DoT is that we will no longer be worried about trying to stack doom as much as we can, instead we will be worried at making sure it is always critting.
    From AffDots code, i see that doom tick damage is computed as D=(1068+spd)*(1+crit/100)*(1+(mastery*3)/100)

    So with different setups (using raidbuffed stats with 28000 spell 25% crit 25% mastery as an example)
    - base : D1 = 65773,75
    - 100% crit : D2 = 105238
    - DS only : D3 = 99600,25
    - DS + 4k spell proc : D4 = 114175,25

    With that stat setup, and with the current code, as D4 > D2, so it's completely logical for the addon to advise you to refresh doom when proc+DS is up. So my advice would be that you put a request in AffDots thread to have a special case added to the addon implementation for Doom+100%trinket proc. Please note that AffDots' doom base damage (1068) and scale factors (1.0) are not up to date with either live or ptr reality, but using 5340/125% spell data yields the same conclusion anyway.
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