1. #721
    Stood in the Fire Bloodfire's Avatar
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    Question about Cha-Ye, do you really need more than 20% crit for MOAR procs?
    If yes, Houston, we have a problem here...

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodfire View Post
    Question about Cha-Ye, do you really need more than 20% crit for MOAR procs?
    If yes, Houston, we have a problem here...
    Breath of the hydra has a .525*1.05 RPPM = .55125 RPPM and lasts 20 seconds.



    Cha-ye's has a (.8085*1.05)*(1+crit chance) RPPM and lasts only 10 seconds.
    Therefore in order for Cha-ye's to have higher uptime than BoTH, you'd need the following to be true:

    2*.55125 < (1.05*.8085)*(1+crit)
    1.1025 < (1.05*.8085)*(1+crit)

    Therefore crit needs to be > 0.298 for Cha-ye's to be better than BoTH.


    You actually need more than 29% crit for Cha-ye's to be better than BoTH.



    If you ever have temp crit buffs (dark soul destro for example) Cha-Ye's will probably proc quite a bit more than you'd expect.

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodfire View Post
    Question about Cha-Ye, do you really need more than 20% crit for MOAR procs?
    If yes, Houston, we have a problem here...
    This is partially why u hear about either go Lei Shin + Cha-ye or Hydra + Wush. The fully crit dots from the Lei Shin trinket make up for having less crit rating. Also, I assume you got the 20% number from icy-veins. Thats not like a make or break number that was simply the number they chose to use in order to sim the trinket to come up with comparisons.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatelocker View Post
    This is partially why u hear about either go Lei Shin + Cha-ye or Hydra + Wush. The fully crit dots from the Lei Shin trinket make up for having less crit rating. Also, I assume you got the 20% number from icy-veins. Thats not like a make or break number that was simply the number they chose to use in order to sim the trinket to come up with comparisons.
    More crit events doesn't make Cha-ye's have a higher proc chance.

    The RPPM is all that matters when calculating how often something will proc.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    More crit events doesn't make Cha-ye's have a higher proc chance.

    The RPPM is all that matters when calculating how often something will proc.
    So that means there is no real reason to pair up cha-ye and lei shins trinket?

  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatelocker View Post
    So that means there is no real reason to pair up cha-ye and lei shins trinket?
    Well, at double proc they give me about 53-54k SPD, so that's fair enough :P.
    On the other hand, is it better to time up Service Felguard with DS?

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatelocker View Post
    So that means there is no real reason to pair up cha-ye and lei shins trinket?
    No, there is.


    100% crit for 4 seconds means you double the default proc rate for those 4 seconds. Have a few crit events in that time and you'll see an artificially higher RPPM for the trinket than you'd otherwise see with no Lei-shens.


    The main reason why I believe people say to pair up specific combos is because Lei-shens and Wushoolay's are inhereantly at odds with each other. For both you'd want to apply dots, and having a 100% crit proc while you have your dots up with a 10-stack of Wush basically means you didn't have that 100% crit proc.

  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Breath of the hydra has a .525*1.05 RPPM = .55125 RPPM and lasts 20 seconds.



    Cha-ye's has a (.8085*1.05)*(1+crit chance) RPPM and lasts only 10 seconds.
    Therefore in order for Cha-ye's to have higher uptime than BoTH, you'd need the following to be true:

    2*.55125 < (1.05*.8085)*(1+crit)
    1.1025 < (1.05*.8085)*(1+crit)

    Therefore crit needs to be > 0.298 for Cha-ye's to be better than BoTH.


    You actually need more than 29% crit for Cha-ye's to be better than BoTH.



    If you ever have temp crit buffs (dark soul destro for example) Cha-Ye's will probably proc quite a bit more than you'd expect.
    Thanks for Calcs.
    30% crit for my gear is unlikely atm, gotta farm up and be ready for Heroics

  9. #729
    In the chanye calculations how does auto crit things like every soulfire + 100% crit doom ticks figure in? If its the sum total of critrate of every spell you cast then I'd think the frequent soulfires demo casts would jack up chanye's uptime. Especially during execute range when you are dumping soulfires constantly.

    In theory the haste/hydra option will simply increase everything by a flat rate. However the chanye vs soulfire thing I would think skews your overall crit rate upward probably past the ~30% mark that Brusalk calculated. Then again I'm fighting a migraine so I could be way off here (sorry if I am).

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    In the chanye calculations how does auto crit things like every soulfire + 100% crit doom ticks figure in? If its the sum total of critrate of every spell you cast then I'd think the frequent soulfires demo casts would jack up chanye's uptime. Especially during execute range when you are dumping soulfires constantly.

    In theory the haste/hydra option will simply increase everything by a flat rate. However the chanye vs soulfire thing I would think skews your overall crit rate upward probably past the ~30% mark that Brusalk calculated. Then again I'm fighting a migraine so I could be way off here (sorry if I am).
    As I understand it, it's not crit rate that increases the RPPM amount of the trinket. It's your % crit chance on your character sheet.

    Critting more or less often has no real effect on how many procs you get. Instead they artificially increase the RPPM of all RPPM trinkets by haste, and they also made Cha-ye's scale with crit.

  11. #731
    Chan Ye's tooltip says "When your spells deal critical damage you have a chance to gain xxxx int for 10 seconds". That is what leads me to believe it may be impacted by soulfire or UVLS auto crits. I'm not sure a good way to test this with RPPM trinkets though. Maybe cast 10K shadowbolts and measure procs vs 10K soulfires or something awful like that?

    Where are you seeing info on the trinket's proc rate being based off character screen crit rate? (not trying to be difficult just curious)

  12. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    As I understand it, it's not crit rate that increases the RPPM amount of the trinket. It's your % crit chance on your character sheet.

    Critting more or less often has no real effect on how many procs you get. Instead they artificially increase the RPPM of all RPPM trinkets by haste, and they also made Cha-ye's scale with crit.
    That is exactly true. As long as you get a crit every 10s you will have a similar uptime on the trinket. This is indeed why they made the RPPM rate scale with crit to (artificially) create the "more crit => more procs".

    There is however a special synergy between this trinket and the temporary +crit effects (like destru DS, or UVLS). While these effects are active, the proc chance is increased because the RPPM is going down, but the neat trick is that if it goes down enough, the "bad streak" protection of the RPPM trinkets will kck in and almost guarantee a proc.
    Surutcra@EU-Hyjal (Arcturus#2484)

  13. #733
    I know the proper opening has been discussed, but despite all the helpful posts I still have a few questions I was hoping you guys would be able to help me with. Do the extra minions from imp swarm and grim:serv get boosted if used just before you popped a DS or change into meta? I understand if a single 100% best dps opening hasn't been found or isn't possible, but a lot of different openers have been posted in this thread, some using those cooldowns before DS/Meta and some after. Some start with corruption, but others put it closer to the second HoG.

    So far this is what I have been using,

    pre-pot, pre-cast SB, corruption, Hog, DS, imp swarm, grim serv, hog, meta, doom, ToC spam.

    Can i pop DS after imp and grim? Should I doom twice(or only if lined up with additional boosts)? I only have 2 piece T 14 with essence of terror and light of the cosmos for trinkets if that matters. Any help would be greatly appreciated, ty.

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Fubar23 View Post
    I know the proper opening has been discussed, but despite all the helpful posts I still have a few questions I was hoping you guys would be able to help me with. Do the extra minions from imp swarm and grim:serv get boosted if used just before you popped a DS or change into meta? I understand if a single 100% best dps opening hasn't been found or isn't possible, but a lot of different openers have been posted in this thread, some using those cooldowns before DS/Meta and some after. Some start with corruption, but others put it closer to the second HoG.

    So far this is what I have been using,

    pre-pot, pre-cast SB, corruption, Hog, DS, imp swarm, grim serv, hog, meta, doom, ToC spam.

    Can i pop DS after imp and grim? Should I doom twice(or only if lined up with additional boosts)? I only have 2 piece T 14 with essence of terror and light of the cosmos for trinkets if that matters. Any help would be greatly appreciated, ty.
    You should doom twice, especially if you have all your procs up. Personally i use DS just after 2nd HoG, when i go into meta. At the end of ToC spam you might find yourself fury starved and still having few seconds of DS. Cast a quick SoulFire from Molten Core procs, HoG and go into Meta to dump that fury on ToCs.

  15. #735
    Can anyone test or tell me how-to test, pet auto-attacks with the metagem, cause I think it isn't affecting auto-attacks or even fel-regen

    I cant get the combat-log to be precise enough
    Last edited by Hellfury; 2013-04-15 at 05:05 PM.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    Can anyone test or tell me how-to test, pet auto-attacks with the metagem, cause I think it isn't affecting auto-attacks or even fel-regen

    I cant get the combat-log to be precise enough

    It was shown a few months ago that Haste barely improves the Fel-regen of pets, even at high numbers. If it appears not to be affecting them, that may be why.

  17. #737
    30% SHOULD affect fel-regen it isnt a trivial ammount, but the main concern is the auto-attack
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  18. #738
    I apologize as I am sure this has been asked before but, do imps snap shot stats or do they update dynamically?

    Thanks,

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatelocker View Post
    I apologize as I am sure this has been asked before but, do imps snap shot stats or do they update dynamically?

    Thanks,
    Update dynamically.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    30% SHOULD affect fel-regen it isnt a trivial ammount, but the main concern is the auto-attack
    At 0% and at 15% haste, I timed how long it takes for the Felguard to cast 50 Legion Strikes. The difference was less than a second. 30% isn't going to make much of a difference.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    At 0% and at 15% haste, I timed how long it takes for the Felguard to cast 50 Legion Strikes. The difference was less than a second. 30% isn't going to make much of a difference.
    Dude ok, forget the felregen, you are stubborn

    Iam more concerned with the auto-attack becuase when I get the metagem buff, pet UI doesnt update but for other sources of haste it does, then again could be a UI bug
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

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