1. #2041
    I see a lot of people talking about having demo as OS and therefore go for a haste/mastery build because of affliction. For someone only playing demo, what build would you consider to be most suitable for most of the fights in SoO?

  2. #2042
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    I think the jury is still out on what the definitive way to optimise demo will be. I know Werst has done a fair amount of testing it on it and I believe that the general consensus is that a crit build provides the most stable single target dps and fury generation. This is of course without the UVLS trinket.

    Having said that, some people (i think Chrispotter tested it on dark shamans) are still getting decent enough results with a haste/mastery build whilst still using UVLS, though this was obviously conducted in a fight with multiple targets alive at once.

    If I were to only play demo I would probably look to grab as much gear with crit and mastery on it as possible, including the 535 ilvl trinket from the timeless isle. Haste's value in t15 primarily came from snapshotting crit doom procs, and also to a lesser extent with firing off more soulfires during dark soul in meta (I think). I believe the play style will focus more around dumping fury with touch of chaos once more, so haste won't be as big of a factor anymore.

    All of the above is based largely on what I have grasped from the 5.4 thread, as I have not touched the PTR much due to still progressing in ToT. I'm sure someone more qualified will agree/disagree soon enough.

  3. #2043
    I think that a large part of the actual spec choices will be contingent on the demands of the heroic encounters. It is entirely possible that the specifics of the respective strategies will favor one spec over another (for whatever reason). If you recall ToT, there were several fights where Destro was particularly good, despite being behind on simulated numbers. Something similar can probably be expected in SoO (to a degree) and is likely to directly influence the spec and stat choices of heroic progression raiders.

    More data will no doubt be streaming in as soon as the patch goes live and people have a chance to see things in action. I expect the next month or so to be filled with lively debate and polarizing discussions on how to optimally spec/gear for SoO heroic.

  4. #2044
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    After some testing I definitely feel stronger about going crit with demo. Did an affliction cross over vs a crit centric build using amp + timeless (or chanye). Also compared it to an amp + UVLS setup. As long as I got lucky I felt okay w' the UVLS setup but luck didn't last and I fury starved. The aff crossover was BBoY and amp which again fury starved but still beat UVLS. Saw strongest results running amp + timeless though the chanye was very close on it. Could have been RNG but lining up every other doom application with the 20% crit proc on a crit centric setup gave me over 50% crit rate to my doom. All tests were with 5xT16 and my armory (550ilvl) bits elsewise.

    Perhaps demo will be best with 8097 haste > crit > mast > haste if you have the ilvl to get to around 30-35% crit self buffed. "Feel" wise I think it will be a shocker to those demo locks who stack endless haste. Should feel more familiar to demo locks who have gone 8100 haste > mastery. I tend to play at just under 10K haste with the rest to mastery since it mojo's with affliction really well (live).
    Hey Werst, what are your conclusions now that RPPM was "fixed" in PTR? Any significant changes?
    A living Warlock = a dead everyone else

  5. #2045
    Heya Scathbais,
    Had some work projects and IRL stuff going on lately so haven't had time to do much but a few 5-10 minute farting around trips to the PTR since the RPPM fix. I still think UVLS will be overshadowed by amp or even normal BBoY (most high end guilds will have garrosh down week 1 I would think). Council style fights UVLS might still be worth it but that's a subjective thing. The best thing I can say for UVLS in 5.4 is that it will allow demo to play with a mastery/haste setup which is a perfect fit for aff offspec or vice versa. In that case I might run the following: (for normal mode)

    1. Demo = UVLS + amp, reforge down to 8100'ish haste from the 9778+ ballpark, gem mastery, and make a ginormous weak aura for your soulfire T16 buff, 2x H.T15/2xT16 sets.
    2. Aff = wush or bboy + amp, setup at 9778 haste to start the tier (probably 13K by end of it), gem mastery, pray you don't have to move during drainsoul if you are burning your second AD darksoul charge with whatever haste/mastery pieces had the highest ilvl I can get my hands on lol.

    Even a 2/2 heroic UVLS only has a .67 RPPM compared to 1.2 for wush, 1.1 hydra, 1.0 (before crit modifier) for chanye, and .92 for BBoY/KTT. You get more procs post RPPM fix but she's still a cruel cold hearted b***h in terms of RNG. Its not hard to sync darksoul and amp's proc and a high proc rate is candy for aff being able to snapshot. Its worth noting that now that doom does not have EA glyph it actually bloody hurts in its 60'ish sec timeframe. Since many fights have adds that last about a minute it changes the role of doom from a imp/DF engine to more of a damage source.

  6. #2046
    UVLS is procing at start of the fights now, maybe becuase of that hotfix they implemented, and my HC 2/2 one is procing very regularly and consistently so I can always match it with a DS stack from AD, this tatic also relied on a more passive demo playstile with unglyphed Imps and GoSup over Service. I did managed to get a 100% DS buffed crit doom over a 10minute fight Doom became the 3rd source of damage after Imps and Soulfire respectively. The reason Iam using the passive stuff is becuase I am saving DS to stack with Perfect Aim(UVLS proc) and not Imps/service.

    I tested with Glyphed Imps syncing them for meta procs and the results were comparable, maybe a bit less, GoServ seemd awkward not using with DS so I think Service will be the way to go playing like this.

    The downsides of this playstile is the very low fury generation at the start of a fight and consequently lower burst.

    About the 4set, I like them, it adds another layer of HoG management and weaving, its great when it procs alone and then u can use one of the lingering stacks to make a 2stack and weave into meta for a double stack, it adds alot to Shadowflame uptime, even in meta when it procs CW its great gives Molten Core stacks that then translates to more 2set bonus procs. It certaintly is awsome on cleave fights.

    I also did tested a crit gem/forge and managed 50% crit self buffed with the proc from that Timeless Island trinket(15% crit chance) and the results werent bad just a few k's short from my UVLS tests, the problem I find on this crit setup is the bad gear synergy with a aff offspec, this might had been the way to go pre RPPM PTR hotfix but not so sure anymore.

    Just giving my 2cents based on my empirical tests, not saying this is definitively the way to go.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  7. #2047
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    I tested with Glyphed Imps syncing them for meta procs and the results were comparable, maybe a bit less, GoServ seemd awkward not using with DS so I think Service will be the way to go playing like this.

    I think you meant say Supremacy but unless they nerf Sac for Demo, Sac would be far far stronger for that play style.

  8. #2048
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    UVLS is procing at start of the fights now, maybe becuase of that hotfix they implemented, and my HC 2/2 one is procing very regularly and consistently so I can always match it with a DS stack from AD, this tatic also relied on a more passive demo playstile with unglyphed Imps and GoSup over Service. I did managed to get a 100% DS buffed crit doom over a 10minute fight Doom became the 3rd source of damage after Imps and Soulfire respectively. The reason Iam using the passive stuff is becuase I am saving DS to stack with Perfect Aim(UVLS proc) and not Imps/service.

    I tested with Glyphed Imps syncing them for meta procs and the results were comparable, maybe a bit less, GoServ seemd awkward not using with DS so I think Service will be the way to go playing like this.

    The downsides of this playstile is the very low fury generation at the start of a fight and consequently lower burst.

    About the 4set, I like them, it adds another layer of HoG management and weaving, its great when it procs alone and then u can use one of the lingering stacks to make a 2stack and weave into meta for a double stack, it adds alot to Shadowflame uptime, even in meta when it procs CW its great gives Molten Core stacks that then translates to more 2set bonus procs. It certaintly is awsome on cleave fights.

    I also did tested a crit gem/forge and managed 50% crit self buffed with the proc from that Timeless Island trinket(15% crit chance) and the results werent bad just a few k's short from my UVLS tests, the problem I find on this crit setup is the bad gear synergy with a aff offspec, this might had been the way to go pre RPPM PTR hotfix but not so sure anymore.

    Just giving my 2cents based on my empirical tests, not saying this is definitively the way to go.
    The issue with the 4 set is that it has been using whatever charges of HoG you may have. Not sure if this is intended or planned on being fixed.

  9. #2049
    Stood in the Fire JV Chequer's Avatar
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    I Think for single-target fights, Supremacy will beat Service because of the 2tp bonus, will be a lot easier your demo gets the benefit of increase dmg passively than when DS is UP your proc pop with the Goserv
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  10. #2050
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyronic View Post
    The issue with the 4 set is that it has been using whatever charges of HoG you may have. Not sure if this is intended or planned on being fixed.
    Tested the 4 set and it isnt using any charges of HoG or CW whichever form you are in and its not spending any DF either when it procs .. I guess it was bugged and they fixed it because if it stayed that way it would've been a very stupid 4 set bonus

  11. #2051
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyronic View Post
    The issue with the 4 set is that it has been using whatever charges of HoG you may have. Not sure if this is intended or planned on being fixed.
    Its not using charges, not consuming fury anymore. Its absolutely free damage now and its delicious on cleave fights.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  12. #2052
    Finally got some trigger time on the PTR this morning. Didn't test aff...but only got to officially test in LFR which is normalized to 496 if the tooltip is to be believed. As such that helps destro massively. Also....how do I say this nicely....the LFR group was beyond horrible players (or people crutch too hard on addons or something). So we had lots of practice on the same fights.

    Demo with the functional 4xT16 is nice for cleave. I swear it procs more during ToC but that's 150% subjective lol. Very nice cleave though on close packed low HP adds. I ran a mastery build with amp + BBoY or UVLS (since KTT/cleave trinkets don't work w' imps/pets). I have a heroic 2/2 (543ilvl) UVLS and she still felt pretty random. Too random for single target IMO. That said I could get respectably close with a 8100 haste > mastery build with BBoY or at least more consistent if you averaged a bunch of attempts. I still think crit demo isn't a bad option but it just prevents offspeccing to affliction. Devs will have to unfock destro (yes more than the 15% CB buff) more before that's an option. You might see a 200K parse w' UVLS and 5x 160K ones whereas you will see a high of 180K and low of 170K for a BBoY. (numbers made up but you hopefully get the idea)

    Destro I wanted to give a fair shake and tested with amp + BBoY/Chanye (543ilvl)/and KTT. I liked KTT the best for destro and honestly ember generation between demo crit setup and haste/mastery aff offspec felt similar. Either one I could approach the ICD of the T16x4...especially weaving FF's in. Mostly as a filler to get the timing right so I can recast immolate with the 4pc buff or even get a CB off w' the 4pc up. FF buff certainly doesn't make me miss KJC whatsoever. I used mostly AD but did some MF pulls for giggles. Honestly MF feels more like an ember generation CD than a damage/aoe one now. CB hits marginally harder but its still a cheese spec. Unless you are havoc shadowburn sniping/cleaving it just has no balls. Like "am I in T14 gear" kinda no balls. (no I'm not just talking about the normalized ilvl) As much as I hate to say it (inc nerf bat) a FF rotation does do quite a bit for ember generation....thus if they ever fix things it would be the perfect offspec to a demo crit build. If running an aff mainspec the classic incinerate one is better.

  13. #2053
    Demo with the functional 4xT16 is nice for cleave. I swear it procs more during ToC but that's 150% subjective lol
    I have the same impression.

    I have a heroic 2/2 (543ilvl) UVLS and she still felt pretty random. Too random for single target IMO.
    You saw this on the LFR scalled to 496 or dummy tests? My testing on dummies the 543 UVLS was pretty stable.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  14. #2054
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    I have the same impression.



    You saw this on the LFR scalled to 496 or dummy tests? My testing on dummies the 543 UVLS was pretty stable.

    I finally just got my normal UVLS, and will double upgrade it soon. I'm wondering how the 530 UVLS is gonna look come 5.4 compared to the other normal trinkets. (No heroic stuff here, just talking normal mode BiS). Is there a precise RPPM?

    On a side note, for those who are pontificating the demo crit build; how does this build align with trinkets? Do you ideally want to pop Doom during the 10th stack of Hydra and the other stacking int trinket for at least 20% more crit on your (ideally) 50%-ish crit buffed?

  15. #2055
    A crit demo build is just going to have more emphasis on max'ing the T16 2pc than on doom min/max. Basically you can forget about always being ready to shift and doom at a moment's notice and treat it like well....affdots would suggest. Of course you are going to want to play smart with when you apply/refresh doom but its no longer so critical to do it with a single 4 sec proc doom has become a damage source directly not a imp/DF engine.

  16. #2056
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyronic View Post
    The issue with the 4 set is that it has been using whatever charges of HoG you may have. Not sure if this is intended or planned on being fixed.
    This was fixed a long time ago.

  17. #2057
    Hey everyone,
    long time reader first time poster.
    Was wondering what is the general consensus about Demo gearing as off now. Crit build VS 8100 Haste>Mastery build.

    I was planning to keep Demo as MS and Affli OS, but yeah if the crit build is the way to go then it's going to be painfull swapping those two specs.

    I'd really love to play mainly demo this tier but if it's just too complicated then c'est la vie I guess.

    Thanks in advance

  18. #2058
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo1444 View Post
    Hey everyone,
    long time reader first time poster.
    Was wondering what is the general consensus about Demo gearing as off now. Crit build VS 8100 Haste>Mastery build.

    I was planning to keep Demo as MS and Affli OS, but yeah if the crit build is the way to go then it's going to be painfull swapping those two specs.

    I'd really love to play mainly demo this tier but if it's just too complicated then c'est la vie I guess.

    Thanks in advance
    If you have a HC UVLS maybe even a normal TF, I dont belive crit gems/reforge is the way to go since they "hotfixed" RPPM on ptr.

    Especially since aff is so strong on alot of encounters, one needs a aff/demo combo
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  19. #2059
    I indeed have normal TF UVLS 2/2 but thought that it wasn't enough to cut it. It's excellent news if I can still play Demo as MS comes 5.4.

    Am I assuming wrong that once I'll replace it with 5.4 trinkets the stat will be changed to a mastery/crit build?

    On another note, I found quite worrying infos on the 5.4 Discussion Thread on how Demo seems to perform. Some says (page 188 onwards) it is actually the worst of the specs and that Affli wins on everything hands down. I was going by the assumption (which might be wrong ofc) that even if Affli is ahead, Demo is close enough. Any input about this from those who actually tested it?
    Last edited by Apollo1444; 2013-09-06 at 09:56 PM.

  20. #2060
    Field Marshal Shila's Avatar
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    I'd love to see a list (from the best to the worst) of both 5.3 and 5.4 trinkets (normal, normal TF, hc, hc TF), assuming they're all upgraded 2/2. Or will it be included in the OP guide here, once it's updated?

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