1. #2401
    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    Demo isn't even worse than bottom half of the specs in game. There is just no reason to play demo when Affli and Destro are two top specs in game. 2-3 Weeks ago all top and bestgeared warlocks played affli or demo and because of that destro didn't have top parses in WoL. Destro got small buff and they nerfed demo little bit and now destro is very popular spec and it went from bottom to top.
    You particularly said what I mean in other words.

    A spec popularity is tied on how it performs, especially on HC logs, when a spec loses strength it loses popularity. Demo downfall and Destro rises its the perfect example of this.

    Demo in ToT was pretty popular so it cant be compared to historically unpopular specs such as hunter MM, Mage frost and rogue Sub

    Ofc its impossible to keep them all 3 balanced, but I feel this was much better achieved in the first tier of this expansion, there was a place for all 3, even though Aff was more popular, demo was perfectly viable on alot of fights same thing for destro.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  2. #2402
    The last fight I tested on was h.thok and despite dominating in prior weeks demo was 30-50K'ish behind 15% post agony nerf aff most of the night. Considering how much less demo loses compared to affliction I found it very disappointing. I was using a 2/2 normal black blood (renewing doom w' 2pc or darksoul at 10x stacks), 543 yulon's bite as my 2nd trinket, fishing for 2pc procs while in caster then toc dumping, and running the usual service grimoire w' AD. Most pulls I was 250-270K as demo and low 300K's as aff so it was a significant gap.

    I like demo's mechanics I just feel like the imp thing was overdone and overall it was nerfed pretty harshly. Moving damage from a passive like imps to a reactive is fine but so far I just don't see the silver lining. If anyone can find a way to make demo work its Zinn but right now gear for gear destro or aff just seem to be stronger. One world class player going to extraordinary measures to make something on par with what other specs do out of the box doesn't make it okay, it just speaks to that one player's level.

  3. #2403
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    I made a pass at the OP and updated anything I saw that was wrong, including the trinket list.

    I have played Demo on Siegecrafter and Thok the last couple weeks and have done more dps then our lock that was playing Affliction, that said my guild is a pretty small sample size and I haven't actually looked at any public logs to see how it is stacking up to the competition. However, I was still higher dps then every other class as well so I don't think it was just a play issue on the Afflocks part.

    I also play Demo on Immerseus, Fallen Protectors, Norushen, Sha of Pride, Iron Juggernaut, Dark Shaman, and Malkorok and have not once felt like I was low dps. The only fight out of those that I think other specs are even close on is Fallen Protectors as Aff, but even that is very close. Single target is pretty close between all 3 specs now I think.

    I am currently using Cha-yes and Black Blood, I dropped UVLS without even trying it once I saw the hotfix.

    The biggest thing people need to realize is how much proper fury management means now. We don't have unlimited fury to just waste with no procs up anymore. If you HoG-weave into no procs you should be leaving meta as soon as HoG lands and not sitting in meta. Save MC stacks to bait 2pc procs during other trinket procs, and stack the shit out of Doom. Doom is an absolute power-house of damage if used right, I almost think that Wushoolays or Black Blood is a requirement if you drop UVLS. On Single target AD is huge in making sure that you are maximizing Doom damage.
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2013-10-06 at 08:39 PM.

  4. #2404
    Hey Zinn, you have an APL for 540-4 that might capture some of this? What's up w' the crit stack at the expense of mastery? Specific setup or where the spec is actually going itemization wise?

  5. #2405
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    Never, ever, ever use my armory to based ideas off of...I tend to try random ass shit when I'm bored and forget to go back to normal when I'm done. I've found that there are times when crit might be slightly better then mastery, but it isn't consistent enough, and even when it is, it isn't enough to make me want to play it (1k dps when im simming 350k)

  6. #2406
    thought i would bring this up since you updated the trinket list but why is lfr binding simming higher then flex bindings?

  7. #2407
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    probally becuase I screwed something up =P

  8. #2408
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    I made a pass at the OP and updated anything I saw that was wrong, including the trinket list.

    I have played Demo on Siegecrafter and Thok the last couple weeks and have done more dps then our lock that was playing Affliction, that said my guild is a pretty small sample size and I haven't actually looked at any public logs to see how it is stacking up to the competition. However, I was still higher dps then every other class as well so I don't think it was just a play issue on the Afflocks part.

    I also play Demo on Immerseus, Fallen Protectors, Norushen, Sha of Pride, Iron Juggernaut, Dark Shaman, and Malkorok and have not once felt like I was low dps. The only fight out of those that I think other specs are even close on is Fallen Protectors as Aff, but even that is very close. Single target is pretty close between all 3 specs now I think.

    I am currently using Cha-yes and Black Blood, I dropped UVLS without even trying it once I saw the hotfix.

    The biggest thing people need to realize is how much proper fury management means now. We don't have unlimited fury to just waste with no procs up anymore. If you HoG-weave into no procs you should be leaving meta as soon as HoG lands and not sitting in meta. Save MC stacks to bait 2pc procs during other trinket procs, and stack the shit out of Doom. Doom is an absolute power-house of damage if used right, I almost think that Wushoolays or Black Blood is a requirement if you drop UVLS. On Single target AD is huge in making sure that you are maximizing Doom damage.
    if you could post your logs would be great, curious of the DPS you can do on HC Thok now and compare to mine.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  9. #2409
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    I made a pass at the OP and updated anything I saw that was wrong, including the trinket list.

    I have played Demo on Siegecrafter and Thok the last couple weeks and have done more dps then our lock that was playing Affliction, that said my guild is a pretty small sample size and I haven't actually looked at any public logs to see how it is stacking up to the competition. However, I was still higher dps then every other class as well so I don't think it was just a play issue on the Afflocks part.

    I also play Demo on Immerseus, Fallen Protectors, Norushen, Sha of Pride, Iron Juggernaut, Dark Shaman, and Malkorok and have not once felt like I was low dps. The only fight out of those that I think other specs are even close on is Fallen Protectors as Aff, but even that is very close. Single target is pretty close between all 3 specs now I think.

    I am currently using Cha-yes and Black Blood, I dropped UVLS without even trying it once I saw the hotfix.

    The biggest thing people need to realize is how much proper fury management means now. We don't have unlimited fury to just waste with no procs up anymore. If you HoG-weave into no procs you should be leaving meta as soon as HoG lands and not sitting in meta. Save MC stacks to bait 2pc procs during other trinket procs, and stack the shit out of Doom. Doom is an absolute power-house of damage if used right, I almost think that Wushoolays or Black Blood is a requirement if you drop UVLS. On Single target AD is huge in making sure that you are maximizing Doom damage.
    Not that I doubt your words, but could you post a log of Protectors and Thok?

  10. #2410
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    Private logs, I'll be streaming next week can see numbers then.

  11. #2411
    im interested in how the trinket rankings are made (obv simcraft) but the parameters. sparkuggz made rankings for all 3 specs and heroic uvls is still very high up on the list for demo only, just wonder what causes the differences between his list and yours on page 1. http://sparkuggz.com/5-4-trinket-lis...y-destruction/

    edit- seems like the list is from oct 6th so it is post nerf, i had personally dropped uvls the night before nerf went live and hadnt tried it, but tonight on dummy i am doing basically equal dmg demo uvls+chayes, and destro chayes+ wush, all 543 ilvl
    Last edited by weakdots; 2013-10-07 at 06:21 AM.

  12. #2412
    Did some more testing based on our convo but still very eratic swings in dps even compared to other specs. Its just the odds of lining up a 2pc proc + chanye + 10x BB + darksoul doom. (you get the idea) Some pulls felt like demo was back, others were like I was wearing my safari hat. For your avg joe or even a solidly advanced player its a bit much. That much RNG and skill should net you more than keeping up with the occasional amazing pull.

    Didn't play perfectly but I didn't spend fury without at least a trinket proc if not something more. You are juggling the following:
    *Troll racial
    *Darksoul + SvC FG (can't think of a time you wouldn't sync these)
    **2nd Darksoul from AD
    *Eng gloves (every other should line up w' darksoul)
    *2xT16 20% dmg proc
    *Chanye (or amp or KTT)
    *BB proc
    *Herbalism if applicable

    As for 2pc fishing for procs to spend in meta....I saw more consistent results going for a caster soulfire into a ToC dump than meta soulfire which just felt like I bled too much DF too fast for the damage return. Not like destro when the stars align and you pop off a 2.7m chaosbolt or something nutty.

  13. #2413
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    Did some more testing based on our convo but still very eratic swings in dps even compared to other specs. Its just the odds of lining up a 2pc proc + chanye + 10x BB + darksoul doom. (you get the idea) Some pulls felt like demo was back, others were like I was wearing my safari hat. For your avg joe or even a solidly advanced player its a bit much. That much RNG and skill should net you more than keeping up with the occasional amazing pull.

    Didn't play perfectly but I didn't spend fury without at least a trinket proc if not something more. You are juggling the following:
    *Troll racial
    *Darksoul + SvC FG (can't think of a time you wouldn't sync these)
    **2nd Darksoul from AD
    *Eng gloves (every other should line up w' darksoul)
    *2xT16 20% dmg proc
    *Chanye (or amp or KTT)
    *BB proc
    *Herbalism if applicable

    As for 2pc fishing for procs to spend in meta....I saw more consistent results going for a caster soulfire into a ToC dump than meta soulfire which just felt like I bled too much DF too fast for the damage return. Not like destro when the stars align and you pop off a 2.7m chaosbolt or something nutty.
    4pc might give you a bit more stability with the extra Fury it generates, but without 2pc T15 you really shouldn't be using Soul Fire in Meta unless you're generating a lot of excess Fury from multidotting.

  14. #2414
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    4pc might give you a bit more stability with the extra Fury it generates, but without 2pc T15 you really shouldn't be using Soul Fire in Meta unless you're generating a lot of excess Fury from multidotting.
    Technically, Soul firing in Metamorphosis is STILL a better use fury than touch of chaos. You just have to balance the molten core charges between caster form and Meta form.

  15. #2415
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyronic View Post
    Technically, Soul firing in Metamorphosis is STILL a better use fury than touch of chaos. You just have to balance the molten core charges between caster form and Meta form.
    It does have a better DPET, but the Fury cost has always been excessive compared to what it generates in caster form.

  16. #2416
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It does have a better DPET, but the Fury cost has always been excessive compared to what it generates in caster form.
    This is actually not true. So, Soul Fire has a funny relation ship with fury. Because of the fact it costs so much more fury then ToC (and that ToC doesn't scale with haste) using Soul Fire in Meta means that your Meta uptime will go down, this also means that your time spent gaining fury goes up. It comes out that spending Soul Fires in meta is actually almost as much fury as spending them in caster form. Spending them in caster form is still going to be more fury in the short term, but in the long term it really isn't a huge change to not spend them.

    Anyways, I made a bunch of people tonight play random specs on a dummy and spent a few hours going at it myself. From personal testing I have found that using Soul Fires during cooldowns (and possibly sacrificing 2pc uptime) is still better then baiting 2pc procs and gaining 2pc uptime without other CDs or procs up. I've done many runs at the dummies and my numbers have always been pretty consistent, so if you are seeing wild swings you probally aren't timing fury usage or cooldowns 100% correctly yet.

    Personally I am back to a pre-UVLS mentality where you need to identify which procs and cooldowns are best to spend fury, how much fury those procs are going to take, and how often they will be up and go from there. For instance, I am running Cha-Yes, Black Blood, and have DS. Under normal conditions I don't have enough fury to dump into each of those so I cut the weakest out (Cha-Yes) and focus on spending fury on only DS and Black Blood. MC procs are put into those same cooldowns/procs.

    The other thing I took from my random testing out of several players from many different guilds is I am fairly certain that people are not playing Demo correctly and need to just get used to the 'new' fury restrictions. Affliction and Destruction numbers were very static across the board, as ilvl went up so did the numbers for both of those specs. When people played Demo however, the numbers fluxuate quite a bit.
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2013-10-07 at 09:36 AM.

  17. #2417
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    This is actually not true. So, Soul Fire has a funny relation ship with fury. Because of the fact it costs so much more fury then ToC (and that ToC doesn't scale with haste) using Soul Fire in Meta means that your Meta uptime will go down, this also means that your time spent gaining fury goes up. It comes out that spending Soul Fires in meta is actually almost as much fury as spending them in caster form. Spending them in caster form is still going to be more fury in the short term, but in the long term it really isn't a huge change to not spend them.

    Anyways, I made a bunch of people tonight play random specs on a dummy and spent a few hours going at it myself. From personal testing I have found that using Soul Fires during cooldowns (and possibly sacrificing 2pc uptime) is still better then baiting 2pc procs and gaining 2pc uptime without other CDs or procs up. I've done many runs at the dummies and my numbers have always been pretty consistent, so if you are seeing wild swings you probally aren't timing fury usage or cooldowns 100% correctly yet.

    Personally I am back to a pre-UVLS mentality where you need to identify which procs and cooldowns are best to spend fury, how much fury those procs are going to take, and how often they will be up and go from there. For instance, I am running Cha-Yes, Black Blood, and have DS. Under normal conditions I don't have enough fury to dump into each of those so I cut the weakest out (Cha-Yes) and focus on spending fury on only DS and Black Blood. MC procs are put into those same cooldowns/procs.

    The other thing I took from my random testing out of several players from many different guilds is I am fairly certain that people are not playing Demo correctly and need to just get used to the 'new' fury restrictions. Affliction and Destruction numbers were very static across the board, as ilvl went up so did the numbers for both of those specs. When people played Demo however, the numbers fluxuate quite a bit.
    Whats the reason behind not using bindings trinket and useing Cha-Ye's?

  18. #2418
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OokingDooker View Post
    Whats the reason behind not using bindings trinket and useing Cha-Ye's?
    ....Because I don't have one......

  19. #2419
    Some people seem to think just because you're a hardcore raider you live in Magical Christmas Land where you get all the drops you need...

    10-man especially can be *brutal* with drop luck. We farmed hc-ToT as long as any other guild, and when SoO hit we had a total of *three* heroic caster trinkets *of any kind*, one of which was from a coin. Stuff happens

  20. #2420
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    I like the sound of Magical Christmas Land, where do I sign up for that? =P

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