1. #2421
    Is there any chance of adding the 543 yulon's bite into the trinket ranking in the op? Im currently looking for this magical christmas land of trinkets too, stuck with that, flex bindings and normal tot trinkets.

  2. #2422
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Some people seem to think just because you're a hardcore raider you live in Magical Christmas Land where you get all the drops you need...

    10-man especially can be *brutal* with drop luck. We farmed hc-ToT as long as any other guild, and when SoO hit we had a total of *three* heroic caster trinkets *of any kind*, one of which was from a coin. Stuff happens
    Raiding 25s isn't necessarily any better. The stuff might drop, and I have indeed seen Warforged BBOYS and HC WF Bindings drop; it doesn't mean the other casters (5 Warlocks, 3 Boomkins, 3 Shadow Priests, Mage and Elemental Shaman) in the guild aren't competing for them. :P

  3. #2423
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lether View Post
    Is there any chance of adding the 543 yulon's bite into the trinket ranking in the op? Im currently looking for this magical christmas land of trinkets too, stuck with that, flex bindings and normal tot trinkets.
    Going to re-run the list tomorrow to fix the LFR / Flex thing, will add yulon's bite when I do that.

  4. #2424
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Raiding 25s isn't necessarily any better. The stuff might drop, and I have indeed seen Warforged BBOYS and HC WF Bindings drop; it doesn't mean the other casters (5 Warlocks, 3 Boomkins, 3 Shadow Priests, Mage and Elemental Shaman) in the guild aren't competing for them. :P
    I dunno, I think I'd prefer to actually see stuff drop and not win it than never at all. At least I can hope I'll get one eventually (I actually coined both my trinkets this tier as well as my UVLS last tier).

    In my 10 man we've had 19 tier tokens drop so far and not a single one has been conqueror. Not one. We've still got garrosh left to wrap things up tonight but I'm not holding out. Even if it does drop our ret is on for his 4 set so yeah...

  5. #2425
    I think to some extent ALL the simcraft APL's are suboptimal. Hyper optimizing demo's does make it look stronger (well reflects better play) but you can say that about aff or destro as well. For instance sims predict incinerate as my largest damage source but I've almost always seen chaosbolt as my highest simply because I don't cast one without an int/big proc if I can help it. I suspect a true optimization of aff would show an even bigger snapshotting gain which is why the nerfs keep coming for it.

    Actually I do have 4xT16....1x heroic/3x normal. I was only spending DF during procs and stacking dooms with 10xBB + something else. Maybe I somehow misunderstand it but just due to the RNG of when what procc'd I saw far more variance in demo than any other spec. You are just too reliant on perfect storms of buffs/procs to coincide.

    Also if we are ignoring the chanye proc (in the example above) wouldn't a trinket who has a stronger passive and weaker proc (perhaps yulon) be a better option if the proc is to be ignored due to simply not enough DF to go around.

  6. #2426
    The Patient Furtylol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Raiding 25s isn't necessarily any better. The stuff might drop, and I have indeed seen Warforged BBOYS and HC WF Bindings drop; it doesn't mean the other casters (5 Warlocks, 3 Boomkins, 3 Shadow Priests, Mage and Elemental Shaman) in the guild aren't competing for them. :P
    It means they are dropping and the raid is getting stronger as opposed to them not dropping at all.

  7. #2427
    Zinnin and I did a few 1v1 7min dps competitions last night and when he used the ToC method I was able to get within 5-10k but the second attempt where he used SF in meta with procs up he destroyed me by almost 40k, granted I had 3 blood procs in 7 mins of smashing keys but still the result seemed pretty clear. After that I decided to sit and do a few tests of my own.

    Soulfire with no procs was hitting for around 130k where as Shadowbolt was hitting for about 75 but when it crit it hit for around 150. With some procs it was crushing soul fire dmg when it crit. So basically unless you have like 10 mc procs save them for meta dumping because SF scales way harder in meta then ToC does. As an example my highest SF crit with literally everything up and a 10 stack was 660k and ToC was only around the mid 400s.

    Moral of the story go to a dummy and get a full bar of fury and 10 mc stacks. Pop into meta and see how many you can dump with a full bar with weaving in 2-4 tocs. That's the magic number of mc procs you want to save for your DS burns. The rest hold like 3-4 at all times and only use SB to regen fury unless you have 10 stacks of MC and ur in a situation where you need to generate fury before an upcoming DS burn. That's the general rule I'm gunna start using along with an ignore most procs during the last 20-30 seconds of DS coming off cd guideline I came up with last night. Zin was saying he was finding 850 fury to be the magic number for a full meta DS burn so that's a good number to shoot for.
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  8. #2428
    Zinnin, how significant would you consider 4 piece to be on fury gains alone? Extra fury from more shadowflame + extra MC procs from Chaos wave. I was planning to hold off until making the switch back to Demo until I got 4 piece due to these factors. Thoughts?

  9. #2429
    I think the 4pc is a) very RNG period and b) stronger in aoe situations than single target. As demo has no specific known itemization goals its a question of whether or not a bit more ilvl/raw stats vs the RNG/aoe side which like so many other things probably swings on a fight by fight basis.

  10. #2430
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    I think the 4pc is a) very RNG period and b) stronger in aoe situations than single target. As demo has no specific known itemization goals its a question of whether or not a bit more ilvl/raw stats vs the RNG/aoe side which like so many other things probably swings on a fight by fight basis.
    Pretty much this. You're casting so many things that its hard to really guage whether it'll significantly increase the ~30% Shadowflame uptime you'd expect normally. It's actually the Chaos Waves that add more I feel, since they're not clipped by HoG refreshes.

    Question is whether to avoid casting Shadow Bolts at all if you have strong Shadowflame stacks up.

  11. #2431
    Betrayer/Zinn,
    Just tested sort of the opposite....but I'm pushing 565 with a T15 wep and 543 chanye so about 4K short in raw spellpower. This is when I use the lower haste setup (destro MS/demo OS) of about 8800 haste/8K crit/16.2K mastery. The soulfire thing felt stronger when I was running my aff mainspec/dest OS setup which is about 12K haste/3K crit/16K mastery.

    Same thing as last night....7m tests. Also like last night demo feels the least consistent in terms of procs but could just be user issue...though I still feel like the sheer number of procs to stack to beat aff/dest makes for less consistency. My gut is that the soulfire in meta is higher especially w' better better gear. Maybe normalized over 10K iterations or on a destro reforge caster soulfire > ToC is stronger. However in terms of fight progression, mass movement, etc the caster soulfire > ToC on proc yields a more useable damage figure. IE if I want to parse I'd go for soulfire, if I am working on a fight and focusing on it then I might ToC. That is on the caveat of a destro reforge...for an affliction reforge I'd probably stick with soufire in meta.

  12. #2432
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    Private logs, I'll be streaming next week can see numbers then.
    Since you gona be streaming and its praticaly public you can set some dummy guild and upload your own logs, there is alot that goes behind the scenes that cant be seen on streaming but caught on logs.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  13. #2433
    The thing you have to remember is, Zinnin and I both didn't have Bindings during testing last night and since that thing has an ICD that lines it up perfectly with DS the Massive MC burn during DS will be ridiculously strong. This should even out the randomness of the feel and make it a little less clunky so all you're really reacting to is Blood procs. Hopefully I'll get a binding tomorrow night so I can do some actual testing to get numbers.

    As far as the 4 piece goes I would just get it. Until someone confirms and shows numbers for itemization being better it should be safe to assume getting 4 piece is worth. In caster form if you have a shadowflame dot tracker or some way of seeing the proc happen with a weakaura or something you can roll 2 stack shadowflames longer then normal, which is probably better then worrying about clipping a stronger one. I don't think Demo should be worrying about how strong shadowflame is over other priorities, just keeping a 2 stack as much as possible should be good enough. All this will get sorted out in time though as progression is over at least for the top end guilds so they will figure all this stuff out and actually test it during farm while people are still doing prog.
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  14. #2434
    Quote Originally Posted by Betrayerx View Post
    The thing you have to remember is, Zinnin and I both didn't have Bindings during testing last night and since that thing has an ICD that lines it up perfectly with DS the Massive MC burn during DS will be ridiculously strong. This should even out the randomness of the feel and make it a little less clunky so all you're really reacting to is Blood procs. Hopefully I'll get a binding tomorrow night so I can do some actual testing to get numbers.

    As far as the 4 piece goes I would just get it. Until someone confirms and shows numbers for itemization being better it should be safe to assume getting 4 piece is worth. In caster form if you have a shadowflame dot tracker or some way of seeing the proc happen with a weakaura or something you can roll 2 stack shadowflames longer then normal, which is probably better then worrying about clipping a stronger one. I don't think Demo should be worrying about how strong shadowflame is over other priorities, just keeping a 2 stack as much as possible should be good enough. All this will get sorted out in time though as progression is over at least for the top end guilds so they will figure all this stuff out and actually test it during farm while people are still doing prog.
    It's random, you can't really force the extended stack; it either happens or it doesn't. Even then, with procs as they are these days, it's actually quite possible that clipping the Shadowflame with a proc will cut its damage by more than half; while at best you'll simply remove the Meta bonus from it.

    Also, about Soul Fire and saving them for Meta, I found this to be a massive DPS loss. You simply generate much less Fury, giving you a very long ramp up, which then gets spent in next to no time, leaving you with several seconds of Dark Soul or whatever other procs you were lining up to use them on, leaving them to merely buff some caster form Shadow Bolts.

    Lastly, a question about Imp Swarm. Is it a massive loss now? I really miss it

  15. #2435
    Mechagnome
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    What opener do you guys use without the t15 2-set? Is it still possible to pop DS right away? My DF is always depleted when I have like 8 seconds left on DS.
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  16. #2436
    Quote Originally Posted by protput View Post
    What opener do you guys use without the t15 2-set? Is it still possible to pop DS right away? My DF is always depleted when I have like 8 seconds left on DS.
    It's always been best to blow everything right away.

  17. #2437
    I do not have any logs that can back it up but i would say its more needed then ever before to keep the imp swarm glyph just to be able to stay in meta as long as possible while cd´s and procs are up and running. Helps out alot on the pull for instance.

    The imps do not as high % of our overall damage as they did before, so with that being said having few less can´t be much of an impact.

    Is the shadowbolt glyph on the other hand a dps gain tho?

  18. #2438
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Imp Swarm is dead, pretty much that is the end of it for now.

    Again with trying to say using Soul Fires in meta means your generating less fury, this isn't true.

    For the purposes of this I'm going to pretend that the only spells in our rotation are filler spells.


    27% raid Haste

    Shadow Bolt
    Cast time: 1.968
    Fury Gain /s: 12.698

    Soul Fire: Caster Form
    Cast time: 1.574
    Fury Gain /s: 19.048

    Soul Fire: Meta Form
    Cast time: 1.574
    Fury Loss /s: 50.79

    Touch of Chaos
    Cast time: 1
    Fury Loss /s: 40

    Scenario 1:
    60s DPS time, 5 stacks of Molten Core used in caster form.

    5 Soul Fires:
    7.87s Casting time
    150 fury gained

    19 Shadow bolts:
    37.392 Casting time
    475 Fury Gained

    15 Touch of Chaos
    15s Casting time
    600 Fury Spent
    Scenario 2:
    60s DPS time, 5 stack of Molten Core used in meta form.

    26 Shadow Bolts:
    51.168s Casting time
    650 Fury Gain

    5 Meta Soul Fires
    7.87s Casting time
    560 Fury Spent

    1 ToC cast
    1s Casting time
    40 Fury Spent
    Total Fury Gained: 625 Total Fury Gained: 650
    Total Fury Spent: 600 Total Fury Spent: 600
    Total Time Spent: 60.262s Total Time Spent: 60.038
    Meta Uptime: 15s Meta Uptime: 8.87

    This is what I've been trying to say for awhile now. As our haste goes up, spending Soul fire in META form actually generates MORE fury because the time spend in Meta goes down. The damage per fury spent for Soul Fire and Touch of Chaos is nearly identical, with Soul Fire having the lead. So not only is it the same slightly more damage per fury spent, you are gaining more fury to spend, and you can fit more fury into cooldowns which is increasing the worth of each point of fury.

    The only Wild Card to this debate was how t16 2pc would effect spending Molten Core procs because dumping them at one time means losing potential uptime of the 2pc. However, I have found that having more reliable 2pc uptime during procs (plus the fact soul fire is just so much more damage) outweighs trying to bait extra 2pc procs when you don't have fury to spend on them anyways.
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2013-10-08 at 01:00 PM.

  19. #2439
    Very good information Zinnin, much appreciated.

    I do wonder tho, why is Imp Swarm glyph dead?
    Is it that they just do too little damage, that using em with DS and meta just doesn´t cut the fury gain you get from em throughout the fight without having the glyph?

  20. #2440
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goosy View Post
    Very good information Zinnin, much appreciated.

    I do wonder tho, why is Imp Swarm glyph dead?
    Is it that they just do too little damage, that using em with DS and meta just doesn´t cut the fury gain you get from em throughout the fight without having the glyph?
    There are basically 3 parts of Imps; Damage, Molten Core procs, and Fury gain. Imp Swarm allowed us to increase the damage of them for a small overall Fury and MC Proc loss. With the 30% nerf and it being cut from 5 from 4 there is just no way trying to use it smartly (which was even debatable before the 30% nerf) is anywhere near worth the extra Imps we generate from the normal passive.

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