1. #2521
    Stood in the Fire Nayelie's Avatar
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    Last night, pulled on top during Fallen Protectors in my raid group. I kept Doom up on the 3 bosses, and hoarded my fury and MC procs until I could line them up with trinket procs. I am gemmed/reforged Int > Hit > Crit > Haste to 4717 > Mastery. I chose the 4717 haste because it kept some speed in my cast times, but it is slower than previously. Didn't feel too starved of fury by spending most of it on MC procs. That kept me out of Meta long enough to build up enough fury. I have my 2-set, so that helped out a lot too.

  2. #2522
    A lot of people are talking about how Aff and Dest produce better numbers or better numbers with less effort but for me, the utility of Demo is too great to give-up. I can't count the number of times demonic leap has saved my rear on Thok. Or using meteor on Galakras and Malkorok. It's great to just jump off anything from any height and slam into the ground while taking no damage. Love it!

    I will say the one thing that makes me sad in SOO is how unfriendly the fights are with pets (not all - but some). I really like using my felguard, sharing dmg with my pet and other such things but so many fights i see my pet die. I end up having to use GoSac which is fine but playing one of two pet classes, I personally enjoy using pets and would rather use pets. I'd like to see fights like Kor'kron be a little more forgiving with pets. Or maybe Thok can quit eating my pet.. he's a demon... how good can he taste?

    I know the other two specs have utility as well but after playing all three specs throughout this xpack - I enjoy demo and unless they nerf it so hard it's not competitive, I'll continue to play it.

  3. #2523
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwiperaids View Post
    Or using meteor on Galakras and Malkorok. It's great to just jump off anything from any height and slam into the ground while taking no damage. Love it!
    Leap is cool I get that but you're way better off using your portal for jumping off towers or reducing the knockup on Malkorok...

    Leap costs 50 fury and puts you in meta. Portal has no negative side effects.

  4. #2524
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    Heh, never said Demo doesn't require effort, but that is why I like playing it.
    Zin, I see you went the 14.9k haste shadowflame breakpoint, how did that feel and numbers wise?

  5. #2525
    Greetings, to start off, I'm gonna first point out the fact that I'm an advocate for the Demonology spec and have been clinching top 20 world parses for the spec on most heroic fights in TOT including couple of rank top 5s. I'd like to believe that I am proficient at this spec and after testing all 3 specs on the current tier, I have come up with the following conclusion:

    Firstly, the way T16 fights are designed gives little room for play for Demonology. To properly consider min maxing between specs for fights, we should consider which fights atm require a proper dps check and which fights require utility for each spec. ( and those are the fights that would roughly determine which specs we should focus on this tier for gearing )

    Demonology may be good on Immerseus ( numbers wise ) but considering it's the first heroic boss of the instance ( and is considerably quite a joke compared to the others ), most warlocks wouldnt be thinking of any sort of min maxing for this particular heroic.

    Take Fallen Protectors, Affliction absolutely rapes the fight by a large margin compared to any of our other specs.

    Norushen again, is pointless for Demonology.

    Sha of Pride demo numbers may be insanely high but that's only because of the burst aoe on the adds and lack of fury spent dumping damage on boss. ( Adds is usually not the main issue here and destro/affliction will usually be more all rounded with both adds damage and boss damage coupled with unlimited energy ).

    For Galakras, Demo may sound strong but it's an absolute joke compared to destro. Furthermore, high health adds in this fight give rise to the ability to maintain dots on all targets for affliction making it an equally viable spec to play with. Demo gives solid burst aoe dps but destro gives strong sustained aoe dps. ( and the fact that destro/aff's energy is also unlimited on this fight ).

    Iron jug however does give demo an edge with the slight movements ( and considering it can spec into AD for additional damage ), likewise for Malkorok. However, for Malkorok, any sound raid leader would have all the ranged dps to focus on the boss and only cleave on the adds if it results in a single target dps increase. The main bulk of cleaving should be done by melees and that gives alot of opportunity to shadowburn cleave for destro on this fight making it a far superior spec compared to demo if played properly. ( even with KJC )

    Dark Shaman, destro just rapes the fight, and furthermore adds usually aint the issue. Nazgim demo just suck when you have destro/affliction on the table which can provide better utility and damage.

    On spoils, with the constant amount of AOE needed, demo will just be too fury starved to actually do any real aoe damage.

    On Paragons, Demo does seem to have a chance as keeping up doom on all targets ( without any significant padding ) will be a good boost to single target dps increase. ( It should not be the case where it can be argued that the stuns bring extra utility to the raid since alot of classes can provide stuns while affliction does bring that extra CoE slows on the bloods )

    On Garrosh, Destro just rapes the fight. There are too many instances where you can shadowburn cleave ( including desecrate weapon in P2 ) while maintaining very high AOE in P1. Empowered whirling adds also give extra shadowburn cleaving as well as unlimited energy.

    Regarding utility, only fight on heroic which may possibly require a demo set up would be Heroic Siegecrafter. Rest of the fights are plain simple, when you have so many mechanics that favour destro/affliction energy, it leaves no room to even touch Demo. If you're using demonic leap to get out of fire ( and as an excuse for good utility ) that would suggest that you would need to work more on your game play. A good utility class brings something to the raid that they can actually use like Devo/HotW tranqs/Rallying Cry etc.

    Basically, for any fight for demo to be competitive with its other specs, it has to use AD to compensate for its lower dps while the others using KJC. If you are a skilled warlock where you know how to weave in instant casts/GCDs within your movement ( including positioning yourself when you're instant casting so that you do not need to avoid fire later ), this gives space for destro/affliction to spec into AD which would make Demo look like a joke.
    Last edited by Xephyria; 2013-10-16 at 10:05 PM.

  6. #2526
    Basically, for any fight for demo to be competitive with its other specs, it has to use AD to compensate for its lower dps while the others using KJC. If you are a skilled warlock where you know how to weave in instant casts/GCDs within your movement ( including positioning yourself when you're instant casting so that you do not need to avoid fire later ), this gives space for destro/affliction to spec into AD which would make Demo look like a joke.
    Using AD that way means giving up Service for Supremacy, I think that kind of defeats the object of timing and focusing your damage. I tend to use the bonus charge to get cover over more or less the full duration of Heroism, whenever that's timed for the encounter, because that tends to be when it matters most.

  7. #2527
    Fury starved. That's all I have to say about Demo. Numbers are decent but not being able to actually dump MC procs with big buffs or even worse having to sacrifice fury to refresh Corruption in Metamorphosis (are you guy still doing that 100%??) makes the spec clunkier than ever. Other than that the damage is fine and I wasn't that far behind our Destro Lock on fights like Iron Juggernaut and Sha of Pride but going back to Affliction turned the table completely.

    IMO this is worse than T14. At least we had the Wild Imps glyph back then. The spec needs a Fury genereation hotfix Destro style asap.

  8. #2528
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    IMO this is worse than T14. At least we had the Wild Imps glyph back then. The spec needs a Fury genereation hotfix Destro style asap.

    I've heard rumors of more Fury generation nerfs incoming. I'm not sure what's going on, but Demonology is on someone's shit list.

    That said, the spec wasn't nearly as bad as people act like it was in T14. No one of any real mention played it, but the few people who did play it made it work to great success. The play style is different, but once the proper adjustments are made it's still viable.

  9. #2529
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Using AD that way means giving up Service for Supremacy, I think that kind of defeats the object of timing and focusing your damage. I tend to use the bonus charge to get cover over more or less the full duration of Heroism, whenever that's timed for the encounter, because that tends to be when it matters most.
    Why would you give up service for supremacy? You should always be using Service if you wanna play demo. Also, if you're able to use your bonus AD charge during heroism would suggest that you might not be using your meta DS properly. If you go into heroism with 1000fury with heroism, dumping all your fury into Meta DS with Soulfires should almost leave you exhausted by the time you're out of it. The best way of using your extra charge should be planning your mini burn phase in between your major burn phase with purified proc. This can be paired with Cloak procs ( if you're tailoring ) and abit of luck trying to pray for other procs to line up together depending on what trinkets you use. However, you dont really want to plan your 2nd AD charge near your major burn phase because you really want to go into your major burn phase with at least 800fury for you to maximise the major burn phase with soulfire spam. That being said, although alot of guides do mention that the extra AD charge gives u alot of room to time and plan your bursts, the requirement to have high fury before your major burn phase restricts the timing of your 2nd AD charge because of the lack of fury. Imho, the nerf to UVLS just gimps our spec in relation to our fury gains.
    Last edited by Xephyria; 2013-10-17 at 07:56 AM.

  10. #2530
    Quote Originally Posted by Xephyria View Post
    Why would you give up service for supremacy? You should always be using Service if you wanna play demo. Also, if you're able to use your bonus AD charge during heroism would suggest that you might not be using your meta DS properly. If you go into heroism with 1000fury with heroism, dumping all your fury into Meta DS with Soulfires should almost leave you exhausted by the time you're out of it. The best way of using your extra charge should be planning your mini burn phase in between your major burn phase with purified proc. This can be paired with Cloak procs ( if you're tailoring ) and abit of luck trying to pray for other procs to line up together depending on what trinkets you use. However, you dont really want to plan your 2nd AD charge near your major burn phase because you really want to go into your major burn phase with at least 800fury for you to maximise the major burn phase with soulfire spam. That being said, although alot of guides do mention that the extra AD charge gives u alot of room to time and plan your bursts, the requirement to have high fury before your major burn phase restricts the timing of your 2nd AD charge because of the lack of fury. Imho, the nerf to UVLS just gimps our spec in relation to our fury gains.
    If you're not lining up Service with Dark Soul, then Service won't be good enough to beat Supremacy. That basically means Dark Soul is getting used no differently than it would be without AD, and therefore AD is simply giving you an extra DS to use at your discretion.

  11. #2531
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're not lining up Service with Dark Soul, then Service won't be good enough to beat Supremacy. That basically means Dark Soul is getting used no differently than it would be without AD, and therefore AD is simply giving you an extra DS to use at your discretion.
    why would u not line up service with dark soul?

  12. #2532
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're not lining up Service with Dark Soul, then Service won't be good enough to beat Supremacy. That basically means Dark Soul is getting used no differently than it would be without AD, and therefore AD is simply giving you an extra DS to use at your discretion.
    I ran a Sim commenting out the DS line in my gear to see how true this was, and it turns out it isn't. GoSup with no DS came out at 319235 compared to 319200 with GoServ. I would imagine just lining up one would make GoServ better. That said you should know how long a fight is going to last, and how much leeway you have to push back your cooldowns before you lose a use. The only DS I really think is mobile is the extra AD DS anyways, which doesn't have a GoServ use to go with it anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by lichanator View Post
    Zin, I see you went the 14.9k haste shadowflame breakpoint, how did that feel and numbers wise?
    I think that I like it, however I have an absolute shit ton of haste on my gear so reaching it was very simple.

  13. #2533
    Quote Originally Posted by Xephyria View Post
    why would u not line up service with dark soul?
    Exactly my point.

    You get one free movable charge. And why use that charge during a burn phase? Because it's a burn phase. Further, after Meta/DS are over, and Hero is still up, you'll generate Fury pretty quickly too, to get back into Meta and use DS again; similar thing happens during the execute when you're spamming Soul Fire and perhaps have Doomguard up.

  14. #2534
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Exactly my point.

    You get one free movable charge. And why use that charge during a burn phase? Because it's a burn phase. Further, after Meta/DS are over, and Hero is still up, you'll generate Fury pretty quickly too, to get back into Meta and use DS again; similar thing happens during the execute when you're spamming Soul Fire and perhaps have Doomguard up.
    I dont see how that relates to the point of me implying that that gives up service for supremacy. You use your first AD charge together with your Service, then you use your 2nd AD charge on a mini burn phase. Am I missing something here?

    Furthermore, using your extra AD charge in the remaining heroism is one of the worst scenario that you can come up with. Heroism lasts for 40secs. DS lasts for 20sec. Basically your opener + your DS and Meta burn would probably take u 25 secs. You're left with 15 secs. Take 5-10secs to get back enough decent fury into your next DS, you're left with 5-10secs on heroism. Heroism is essentially a Meta gem proc. If I would put it in that scenario, would you burn your DS and fury dump into a meta proc? Or would you save it for a Kardris trinket + int proc and burn it together when you have a decent amount of fury left? I think it's pretty self explanatory.
    Last edited by Xephyria; 2013-10-17 at 07:48 PM.

  15. #2535
    Messed around w' demo on our rekill of h.siegecrafter last night...it was keeping pace w' destro however honestly each time I used demo I got an holy crap trinity of lasers during magnets (back to back), sawblade spammed, or someone just died to fall dmg on the belt (bug) thus wiping us. Also if I wasn't able to keep shadowflame/HoGx2 on add spawns (cuz I was running for my life from lasers) bombs got loose. So went back destro, shadowburn sniped bombs chasing randoms, F&B'd on the run, and killed it but as much due to not being the object of every raid hazard.

    Tried demo on thok too...double fixate death GG. By the end of the night I was pissed at the rng every time I went demo not allowing me to properly test it. I definitely feel demo has the potential but damn if RNG hates me when I do and I'm not even talking about trinket procs at awkward times. I feel like demo needs a bit better luck on evenly spaced trinket procs (which is why BB + bindings would be a big big deal) to function whereas dest or aff can react better to the more RNG nature of RPPM trinkets. Thus demo might top say 1:10 to 1:5 parses vs dest when its procs came spaced out around 60 sec from each other but most of the time the other specs will do better with less luck.

    That said I think its amazing for malkorok since the auto cleave nature of HoG, feltardo, and 4pc procs gives quite a bit of free damage. You can't always havoc snipe adds as destro since melee's executes are instant and they are sitting there in melee range w' instant melee attacks so even just the gcd or cast bar is enough to miss your chance as destro IF you have spot on melee.

    As far as AD goes you can use it in execute when you have fast in/fast out DF generation as a last resort if you didn't need it to cover a oops or had a perfect storm of procs earlier. Its also handy for progression to hold for when someone dies or you get behind on something and need a bit extra to cover/catch up. IE "xxxx is dead, adds spawning....AD > pewpew > GG"

    In terms of testing and sims I am seeing demo getting closer to destro (572ilvl, 4pc, etc) by going to nearly 15K haste than the 8097 > mast > crit > haste. Problem is doing so hurts destro. Aff likes that much haste but then you are passing on what is arguably the most effective spec right now.

  16. #2536
    Quote Originally Posted by Xephyria View Post
    I dont see how that relates to the point of me implying that that gives up service for supremacy. You use your first AD charge together with your Service, then you use your 2nd AD charge on a mini burn phase. Am I missing something here?

    Furthermore, using your extra AD charge in the remaining heroism is one of the worst scenario that you can come up with. Heroism lasts for 40secs. DS lasts for 20sec. Basically your opener + your DS and Meta burn would probably take u 25 secs. You're left with 15 secs. Take 5-10secs to get back enough decent fury into your next DS, you're left with 5-10secs on heroism. Heroism is essentially a Meta gem proc. If I would put it in that scenario, would you burn your DS and fury dump into a meta proc? Or would you save it for a Kardris trinket + int proc and burn it together when you have a decent amount of fury left? I think it's pretty self explanatory.
    I got from your post that you were suggesting to use AD in accordance with Trinket procs, which causes a misalignment of DS with other cooldowns (personal and raid), and that somehow that flexibility was what made Demo strong. If I misunderstood, which seems to be the case since we seem to be actually agreeing, then meh.

    If you have Heroism at the pull, you've got Doomguard up so you're buffing that for its entire duration too, if you have it at the end in execute, you'll have infinite MC procs and Fury coming out of your ass. In respect to trinkets, I actually found BBY will almost always double proc at the pull too.

    Anyhow, I played it some more tonight and with 5-6 ilvls more compared to a couple of weeks ago it is performing significantly better. Worth noting that Hit scales absurdly for Demo at this gear level, it was something like double the value of Intellect for me last I checked at the weekend, so absolutely worth the Expertise/Mastery gems. I also found that using Glyph of Imp Swarm staved off Fury starvation when I needed it and offered up a reliable chunk of MC procs too. I can only hope the spec continues to scale this well with gear, although kinda sad to be asking 560+ ilvl for it to be even usable.

  17. #2537
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Anyhow, I played it some more tonight and with 5-6 ilvls more compared to a couple of weeks ago it is performing significantly better. Worth noting that Hit scales absurdly for Demo at this gear level, it was something like double the value of Intellect for me last I checked at the weekend, so absolutely worth the Expertise/Mastery gems. I also found that using Glyph of Imp Swarm staved off Fury starvation when I needed it and offered up a reliable chunk of MC procs too. I can only hope the spec continues to scale this well with gear, although kinda sad to be asking 560+ ilvl for it to be even usable.
    Ignore the value of hit, you should always cap hit then go for the other stats. People are gemming Expertise/Mastery gems this tier is cos of the lack of hit on T16 loots and that would actually allow them to reforge more optimally. If you're using Glyph of Imp Swarm, you should really only be using it as the opener once just for the fury so that your first DS meta spam has sufficient fury and not bother about it for the rest of the fight.

    AD should always be used in accordance with trinket procs. The first AD charge should always be used together with felguard ( Major burn phase ). Your 2nd AD charge should be your mini burn phase. Your "first" AD charge should be delayed together with your service till the next round of purified bindings proc and do your major burn phase rotation again. ( They should almost align perfectly )

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    In terms of testing and sims I am seeing demo getting closer to destro (572ilvl, 4pc, etc) by going to nearly 15K haste than the 8097 > mast > crit > haste. Problem is doing so hurts destro. Aff likes that much haste but then you are passing on what is arguably the most effective spec right now.
    My suspicion for this is that, considering the nature of how fury starved demo is to actually make use of proper meta weaving through int procs, a higher haste set up would mean higher fury gains and thus an overall increase in dps.

  18. #2538
    People are gemming expertise on red slots because every secondary stats is worth more than 0.5 int, so that is the optimal way to go. If you can gem expertise without getting over hitcap and reforging out of hit then you have more secondary stats than you would if you gemmed int.

  19. #2539
    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    People are gemming expertise on red slots because every secondary stats is worth more than 0.5 int, so that is the optimal way to go. If you can gem expertise without getting over hitcap and reforging out of hit then you have more secondary stats than you would if you gemmed int.
    Yeah, when you have scale factors that look like this:


    It really is better to drop the Int for Expertise on those orange gems.

    AD should always be used in accordance with trinket procs. The first AD charge should always be used together with felguard ( Major burn phase ). Your 2nd AD charge should be your mini burn phase. Your "first" AD charge should be delayed together with your service till the next round of purified bindings proc and do your major burn phase rotation again. ( They should almost align perfectly )
    You're talking about using AD for a stars align event (high Fury + string of procs) that may never happen. If it does, great do it. Don't count on it though, otherwise you'll frequently find yourself sat there with a charge of AD and 20s left until the boss dies.

    I'll expand on my comment about Imp Swarm though, I feel if the spec needs anything fixing, then reverting the nerf that reduced the number of Imps it provides would be the best place to apply it. On Wednesday when I played without the glyph, I felt exactly as Brusalk put it, not terrible but Fury starved when it mattered. Last night when I put the glyph back because I knew that would fix that, the spec felt much better and overall I think I was doing more damage because I had the Fury when I was able to make the best use of it.

  20. #2540
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    You never gem Expertise because of Hits scale factors, you gem them because of Haste / Crit / Mastery scale factors. You aren't gaining extra hit from gemming hit over int, you are gaining other secondary stats that you no longer have to reforge because you can't have more then 5100 hit....

    If you are reforging 3k crit to 3k hit, and then you add an extra 3k expertise through gems, you aren't gaining 3k hit rating, you are gaining 3k crit.

    Hits scale factor is useless if you are debating expertise over int, you need to look at the stats you are actually gaining.

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