1. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodfire View Post
    45 sec? That rocks. Over 9000 Imps per fight.
    What is the hardcap and how to balance crit vs mastery if socketing pure haste?
    50% would be the hard cap for the GCD, but that's not really a big deal because of ToC.

    If you have UVLS Crit loses a TON of value.

  2. #942
    If haste is so good why does Sparkuggz stack mastery instead?

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkith View Post
    If haste is so good why does Sparkuggz stack mastery instead?
    if every1 jumped off a bridge, would you do it as well?

    afaik he is at the 8097 breakpoint for the extra doom tick during BL and since he afaik also has the metagem, maybe he feel that he doesnt need anything more. just bcoz locks in top ranking guilds gear a certain way, doesnt mean that it is the 100% right way for EVERYONE to gear, but it is however the 100% right way for HIM to gear, good locks gear whatever way they feel is right for them, altho they prolly take simcrafts into account as well.

  4. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkith View Post
    If haste is so good why does Sparkuggz stack mastery instead?
    Well, tbh people overrate haste because of simcraft says its way more valuable than mastery and RPPM scales a little with haste. I'm also stacking mastery and im doing fine. I rather hit harder with my soulfires when i use DS+Meta than use my molten core procs faster with less damage. Also ToC is instant cast so it doesn't benefit from haste. Fury generation is fine with all those wild imps and metagem+berserking Imp Swarms without going allin haste.

    I don't think there is exact answer which one is better. But i think the difference is pretty marginal either if you stack haste or mastery or balance between them. And because all fights are a little bit gimmicky and because of all these RNG aspects you can't know for sure. Only thing you can say for sure is that Crit is crap with Lei-Shen trinket!

  5. #945
    The last reason I do something is because Simcraft said so. I personally stack Haste because I see better results with it. I'm also 22 ilvls below Sparkuggz.

  6. #946
    I know this has been asked for a bunch, but does anyone mind posting the WeakAura for the proc of UVLS. I just managed to get a hold of the trinket tonight

  7. #947
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    The last reason I do something is because Simcraft said so. I personally stack Haste because I see better results with it. I'm also 22 ilvls below Sparkuggz.
    If you aren't going off of Simcraft, you're pretty much flat out guessing if something is a DPS increase or not.

    And that's not even opinion, it's just math. RNG and sample size make it pretty much impossible to test a reforge out in a raid and get any kind of defensible answer.

  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Conando View Post
    If you aren't going off of Simcraft, you're pretty much flat out guessing if something is a DPS increase or not.

    And that's not even opinion, it's just math. RNG and sample size make it pretty much impossible to test a reforge out in a raid and get any kind of defensible answer.
    True, but if the APLs don't match what you're doing, then the sims might not be giving you accurate answers anyways. At least Teye can defend his choices, and not just say "I'm doing it because the sim said so." I think you're exaggerating that he's "flat out guessing."

    I'm not 100% sure about the Demo APLs but I have heard the Destro and Aff ones have some inconsistencies with what's actually recommended by playstyle. That and sims are mostly used for Patchwerk single targets, of which there are strictly none. If you're taking heroic progression seriously, you should probably be generally reforging some on a fight by fight basis. If you're doing normal progression, then it's not even a big deal really to max/min reforges.

  9. #949
    i used simc all the time in t14, usually multiple times per day. since t15 has come out and all the rppm mechanics there is just no point anymore.
    also does anyone have the wa input for imps? i used to see it on zinnins ui when he streamed. would like something similar.
    Last edited by weakdots; 2013-04-30 at 05:31 AM.

  10. #950
    Stood in the Fire Aeiri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    461
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    True, but if the APLs don't match what you're doing, then the sims might not be giving you accurate answers anyways. At least Teye can defend his choices, and not just say "I'm doing it because the sim said so." I think you're exaggerating that he's "flat out guessing."

    I'm not 100% sure about the Demo APLs but I have heard the Destro and Aff ones have some inconsistencies with what's actually recommended by playstyle. That and sims are mostly used for Patchwerk single targets, of which there are strictly none. If you're taking heroic progression seriously, you should probably be generally reforging some on a fight by fight basis. If you're doing normal progression, then it's not even a big deal really to max/min reforges.

    As far as the apl goes, it is very easy to edit the APL yourself before you run it to match your playstyle. I will agree on the single target part though since simcraft can't simulate fights with varying periods of single target/cleave/aoeing.

  11. #951
    Quote Originally Posted by Conando View Post
    If you aren't going off of Simcraft, you're pretty much flat out guessing if something is a DPS increase or not.

    And that's not even opinion, it's just math. RNG and sample size make it pretty much impossible to test a reforge out in a raid and get any kind of defensible answer.
    Well ... yes and no. No to the "it's just guessing" and yes to the sample size statement.

    There nearly 1000 posts of discussion in this thread from many warlocks of many different gear levels and many different skill levels, not to mention other resources he may be utilizing (beyond Simcraft). I think it's fair to say that participating in this active discussion, comparing with other players, looking at sims and even judging how the sims are good/bad/right/wrong, and then applying all that to the admittedly un-controlled environment of raids ... I'd say that constitutes more than just guessing.

    That being said -- yes, the sample size for any given person will never be significant, since you will never be able to control all the variables. But I think we can get pretty reasonable guidelines of umbrella circumstances (as in ... in this approximate gear level, with these trinks, with this approximate raid dps and fight length ... etc, etc, etc).

    I think that provides a clearer picture than just following simc ...

  12. #952
    Most likely actually hes weighted that way due to convenience - he has a destro off-spec instead of a haste loving affliction spec, so mastery works well for that. Synergy as he currently stands works out , allowing him to switch on the fly.

    But mmm sure ..he could probably get a little more out of demo as a haste build gosac + UVLS+UA. Seems to be a niche though right now.

  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by Conando View Post
    If you aren't going off of Simcraft, you're pretty much flat out guessing if something is a DPS increase or not.

    And that's not even opinion, it's just math. RNG and sample size make it pretty much impossible to test a reforge out in a raid and get any kind of defensible answer.
    The APL is never going to be representative of a real encounter, unless we get Naxxramas rehashed again. It's a principle of 'gain resources - spend resources'; if you can spend them well (which varies from encounter to encounter, and isn't therefore something straightforward or consistent enough to bother with in adjusting in the APL), then Mastery's value will inflate, but you can't use that Mastery if you can't generate enough Fury to use it, which is what gives Haste value.

    Through all the sims I've done, there's never been a clear winner in priority, but in terms of testing I always found giving up too much of one in favour of another is detrimental because lacking Haste lacks Fury enough to do anything with, and lacking Mastery reduces its impact when Fury is spent efficiently.

    Perhaps it is guesswork, but it's educated guesswork based on experience.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-04-30 at 12:45 PM.

  14. #954
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Well ... yes and no. No to the "it's just guessing" and yes to the sample size statement.

    There nearly 1000 posts of discussion in this thread from many warlocks of many different gear levels and many different skill levels, not to mention other resources he may be utilizing (beyond Simcraft). I think it's fair to say that participating in this active discussion, comparing with other players, looking at sims and even judging how the sims are good/bad/right/wrong, and then applying all that to the admittedly un-controlled environment of raids ... I'd say that constitutes more than just guessing.

    That being said -- yes, the sample size for any given person will never be significant, since you will never be able to control all the variables. But I think we can get pretty reasonable guidelines of umbrella circumstances (as in ... in this approximate gear level, with these trinks, with this approximate raid dps and fight length ... etc, etc, etc).

    I think that provides a clearer picture than just following simc ...
    Simcraft is also pretty much the only reliable measure that we can use for empirically sound insights. More importantly, Simcraft not being able to model something absolutely does not mean that a method that's not reliable becomes reliable. That's not true anywhere else in analytics and it's not true in WoW.

    And I'm not even saying that people can't eyeball things, but it completely stops things dead in the water when we go into a, "Well screw simcraft, my numbers look higher with ______" mode. At that point it's just a straight back and forth speculation with very little way to measure the accuracy of anything.

  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by Conando View Post
    Simcraft is also pretty much the only reliable measure that we can use for empirically sound insights. More importantly, Simcraft not being able to model something absolutely does not mean that a method that's not reliable becomes reliable. That's not true anywhere else in analytics and it's not true in WoW.

    And I'm not even saying that people can't eyeball things, but it completely stops things dead in the water when we go into a, "Well screw simcraft, my numbers look higher with ______" mode. At that point it's just a straight back and forth speculation with very little way to measure the accuracy of anything.
    Which is why we go from educated guesses and experience of testing. The results you get from any piece of analytical kit are only as good as your calibration curve, and the APL simply isn't good enough as a calibration to reflect real play against real encounters. It can only go so far, and so far it's not giving a huge variation in the value of stats to give a definitive answer. If there's no definitive answer from the simulation, or if the results from the simulation to do not match with real data you're collecting, then the sim ceases to be useful and the only thing left is subjective experience.

  16. #956
    ... and the flaws in one model absolutely never give legitimacy to another. I can't stress this enough. If a company found out that the big nationwide survey they were conducting got screwed up, that wouldn't justify talking to a group of people on the street and then using that as an answer.

  17. #957
    Quote Originally Posted by Conando View Post
    ... and the flaws in one model absolutely never give legitimacy to another. I can't stress this enough. If a company found out that the big nationwide survey they were conducting got screwed up, that wouldn't justify talking to a group of people on the street and then using that as an answer.
    I'm a research technician, if my analysis is wrong and I know it's wrong; I find an alternative method to get some better results. I certainly don't say "close enough" and use that incorrect data.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-04-30 at 03:12 PM.

  18. #958
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasukan View Post
    Most likely actually hes weighted that way due to convenience - he has a destro off-spec instead of a haste loving affliction spec, so mastery works well for that. Synergy as he currently stands works out , allowing him to switch on the fly.

    This is likely very true. Also, in light of this conversation I looked at Simcraft for the first time in awhile. Its doing EXACTLY what I'm doing.

  19. #959
    Quote Originally Posted by weakdots View Post
    i used simc all the time in t14, usually multiple times per day. since t15 has come out and all the rppm mechanics there is just no point anymore.
    also does anyone have the wa input for imps? i used to see it on zinnins ui when he streamed. would like something similar.
    its an addon called imp tracker, it wont show on curse's list of addons, but if you make a google search for imp tracker addon it will guide you to curse and you'll find it there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumathos View Post
    I know this has been asked for a bunch, but does anyone mind posting the WeakAura for the proc of UVLS. I just managed to get a hold of the trinket tonight
    there is one in the weakaura thread on our warlock forum, it should be there, maybe a few pages behind but its there.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-04-30 at 06:22 PM.

  20. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumathos View Post
    I know this has been asked for a bunch, but does anyone mind posting the WeakAura for the proc of UVLS. I just managed to get a hold of the trinket tonight
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20926787

    Sorry I missed this post.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •