1. #2321
    I played demo aswell on a few fights and i have to agree what you above poster say.
    The DF starv after the first doom with UVLS is up is horrid.
    Less tier 16 2P proccs and feels clunky once it proc. I´m sitting with 2 piece tier 15 aswell which feels like the only thing that saves me when it comes to DF when i pop CD´s.

  2. #2322
    So far tried demo on 1st 3 heroic bosses:

    Immerseus - it's as good as it ever was, logs as broken as ever.

    Fallen protectors - it's as good as it ever was, although I switched to affliction when we killed it because I knew I could get more DPS (which was always the case here)

    Norushen - somewhat hard to say thanks to using a new tactic. Personally I didn't like demo here as soul swap just felt too useful with all the adds spread out across the room. Switched to affliction for the kill.

    All of the demo attempts were done with around 10k haste (the closest I could get to 8097), 7k crit and the rest into mastery. No UVLS. Fury gain felt alright, although this may be down to killing blows on adds.
    Damage distribution obviously shifted significantly away from imps. Doom was doing a similar proportion of damage as I didn't have to sit on good procs not overwriting crit dooms.

    I'll continue to see how demo fares further into the raid, in particular how it stacks up against last weeks iron juggernaut, malkorok and thok attempts with regards to single target DPS and how fury gain has been affected in a raid environment rather than at a target dummy.

    So far the spec still retains its strengths, fights that played to demo's strengths before you'll still be fine being demo.

    Getting some of the damage back would be nice, sure, but if it is going to come back I can't see it going into imps. The damage distribution seems a lot better now; piling too much damage into imps lets you get away with an awful lot without losing too much DPS, much the same that if you summoned a good doomguard in cata you would still do vast amounts of damage even if you messed everything up from that point onwards.

  3. #2323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpsmash View Post
    This.

    Also, I tested out demonology on a few fights today. Fury regen past 1,5 minutes into fights is total bollocks. Even for the first 1,5 minutes of a fight, with 100% crit up for the entire duration, damage was way lower due to imps being weaker. After crit-doom was over, I could be sitting for minutes before I saw another UVLS procc.
    On aoe fights, the extremely lowered fury regen and soul fire proccs made timing T16 2P and high fury with waves of aoe extremely clunky.

    Since I really, really can't stand affliction, I decided to step out of the progress raid in favor of other, more viable classes.
    I've switch to a Crit heavy build (8.1k Haste > Crit > Mastery) and found Fury generation to be fine, damage though is now very back loaded into the execute. I've lost damage, but it's kinda hard to gauge at the moment as my gear has fallen a fair way behind the rest of my guild so it's difficult to say how much is that, and how much is the nerf. Either way, I doubt I'll be competing for top spot on the meter as Demo even after gearing.

  4. #2324
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    So far tried demo on 1st 3 heroic bosses:

    Immerseus - it's as good as it ever was, logs as broken as ever.

    Fallen protectors - it's as good as it ever was, although I switched to affliction when we killed it because I knew I could get more DPS (which was always the case here)

    Norushen - somewhat hard to say thanks to using a new tactic. Personally I didn't like demo here as soul swap just felt too useful with all the adds spread out across the room. Switched to affliction for the kill.

    All of the demo attempts were done with around 10k haste (the closest I could get to 8097), 7k crit and the rest into mastery. No UVLS. Fury gain felt alright, although this may be down to killing blows on adds.
    Damage distribution obviously shifted significantly away from imps. Doom was doing a similar proportion of damage as I didn't have to sit on good procs not overwriting crit dooms.

    I'll continue to see how demo fares further into the raid, in particular how it stacks up against last weeks iron juggernaut, malkorok and thok attempts with regards to single target DPS and how fury gain has been affected in a raid environment rather than at a target dummy.

    So far the spec still retains its strengths, fights that played to demo's strengths before you'll still be fine being demo.

    Getting some of the damage back would be nice, sure, but if it is going to come back I can't see it going into imps. The damage distribution seems a lot better now; piling too much damage into imps lets you get away with an awful lot without losing too much DPS, much the same that if you summoned a good doomguard in cata you would still do vast amounts of damage even if you messed everything up from that point onwards.
    The problem isn't that it doesn't work the same, its not that it doesn't work in a raid environment. Its that I am now doing less damage than a shadow priest guidie who is 15-20 ilevels lower than me and I've never really used UVLS in the past and still came up 10-20k higher than the guildie in question and now I am behind the shadow priest by 1-4k dps.

    I feel like I am driving around with the emergency brake on.

  5. #2325
    With UVLS gone, how does Yu'lon's bite(the ilvl 535 timeless isle trinket with 10k crit proc) look for demonology? I haven't seen many discussions about it, but it sounds like an interesting pair for bindings, and its proc rate ensures an almost 100% uptime on a crit buffed doom.

  6. #2326
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    isn't 10k crit rating = 15% crit ?

  7. #2327
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    Quote Originally Posted by sster View Post
    isn't 10k crit rating = 15% crit ?
    600 rating = 1% crit. 10000/600 = 16.667%

  8. #2328
    Deleted
    what is binding

  9. #2329
    Quote Originally Posted by sster View Post
    isn't 10k crit rating = 15% crit ?
    Hes not saying 100% crit buff doom, hes saying a doom with buffed crit can be kept up almost 100% of the time.

  10. #2330
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    The problem isn't that it doesn't work the same, its not that it doesn't work in a raid environment. Its that I am now doing less damage than a shadow priest guidie who is 15-20 ilevels lower than me and I've never really used UVLS in the past and still came up 10-20k higher than the guildie in question and now I am behind the shadow priest by 1-4k dps.

    I feel like I am driving around with the emergency brake on.
    Obviously your damage is going to be lower, that was the intention behind the nerf because people were able to produce great numbers whilst also quickly killing important adds, and being able to aoe stuff down really quickly, and have great mobility.

    I think it's still a great progression spec, and still brings to the table things that other lock specs don't.

    The question is whether it's still useful compared to other warlock specs, which is something that needs testing on a fight by fight basis. Even if you are doing less DPS; sometimes a reduction in overall personal DPS is required to make sure that something important dies when it needs to.


    If we look back to the start of Throne of Thunder we saw corruption and doom damage nerfed by I think 25% very early in the tier and people were writing off demo. Fast forward a couple of weeks and the mechanics of the instance (also UVLS) meant that it was a brilliant spec. In a couple of weeks time once things have settled down a bit we might see that demo is still the spec of choice for many encounters and that the imp and UVLS nerfs were justified, as the doom nerf was last tier.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2013-09-26 at 05:25 PM.

  11. #2331

    Dps

    How big dps difference if specing supremacy and no imp swarm vs service and imp swarm?
    Demonology ofc.

    I moved this post to the demonology sticky for you. :-) Please try to look for an existing thread on the topic before you post it!

    - Alarinth
    Last edited by Alarinth; 2013-09-26 at 08:02 PM.

  12. #2332
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    I am pretty convinced at this point you should basically just not use Imp Swarm unless the fight calls for the on demand burst.

  13. #2333
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    I am pretty convinced at this point you should basically just not use Imp Swarm unless the fight calls for the on demand burst.
    Sweet, what about grimoire of supremacy then?
    Except the usual: Double felguard felstorm aoe

  14. #2334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimonde View Post
    Sweet, what about grimoire of supremacy then?
    Except the usual: Double felguard felstorm aoe
    Nothing changes what the OP has said, Supremacy and Service are pretty close. Only Service wins in AOE scenarios due to the double Felstorm, and does bring extra fury to the table, which is an important bonus after the hotfixes.

  15. #2335
    The last time I tried supremacy vs service was a zerg strat of first week h.nourshen for a couple pulls. The gap felt larger than the sims would predict... Then again I'm engineering/herbalism on a troll so every 2 mins (and esp w' 3min zerking) numbers get fun.

    After playing w' the 540-3 (which is up to date re nerfs) I find haste to be the new stackable stat for the demo hardcore so perhaps a decent option for an aff offspec when aff starts getting around the 13737 haste mark?

  16. #2336
    isn't 10k crit rating = 15% crit ?
    The item I'm talking about is http://www.wowhead.com/item=103987

    I was simply wondering how it looks for a council-type fight where your main throughput comes from doom-generated imps. With a mastery/haste build I sit at 27% or so crit raid buffed, so the trinket pumps it up to a 42% crit. That's almost a 50% crit chance for doom, and the ICD ensures that you will most likely always have a 15% extra crit doom rolling on a target at a given time. So, is this a viable alternative for a council-type fight? Or is raw int still the better choice?

  17. #2337
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    The last time I tried supremacy vs service was a zerg strat of first week h.nourshen for a couple pulls. The gap felt larger than the sims would predict... Then again I'm engineering/herbalism on a troll so every 2 mins (and esp w' 3min zerking) numbers get fun.

    After playing w' the 540-3 (which is up to date re nerfs) I find haste to be the new stackable stat for the demo hardcore so perhaps a decent option for an aff offspec when aff starts getting around the 13737 haste mark?
    Why would you not go Service when zerging Norushen? You'll get two grimoire Felguards out right before 50%. Or do you mean that you usually go Supremacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    Nothing changes what the OP has said, Supremacy and Service are pretty close. Only Service wins in AOE scenarios due to the double Felstorm, and does bring extra fury to the table, which is an important bonus after the hotfixes.
    Service wins on fighs with downtime as well.

  18. #2338
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinitar View Post
    With UVLS gone, how does Yu'lon's bite(the ilvl 535 timeless isle trinket with 10k crit proc) look for demonology? I haven't seen many discussions about it, but it sounds like an interesting pair for bindings, and its proc rate ensures an almost 100% uptime on a crit buffed doom.
    I'm curious of this as well. I'm looking for a trinket to replace the UVLS as soon as possible, currently have the raid finder version of it and I have my eyes on the Yu'lon's Bite. But it would be nice to know if it's actually better before I spend the time grinding out 50k coins.

  19. #2339
    For single target it may not be, but I'm especially curious about how it fares for a council-type fight where the bosses live for a prolonged time, thus allowing you to farm some imps.

  20. #2340
    @Bonkura....I am always service when demo. Tried it for a few pulls since my service FG was dying almost instantly some uses and early almost all of them. That led to some big variance pull to pull which I was trying to smooth out. If sims were to be believed the gap should be small but it wasn't between service and superiority. At least not for my setup (troll/eng/herb). Never could pin down why but it seems like the aoe reduction/avoidance thing wasn't working or something was our best guess. Hence I tried using a wrathguard for a pull or two but it was a definite loss. We killed it a few pulls later on the first week zerg (I was back service and just hoping feltardo didn't die early) then ofc this week was a cakewalk. (though I was aff this week)

    The yulon bite proc is more like 18.75% crit plus whatever crit you'd get from the 1785 static int. For the purposes of mental guesstimation I just sort of consider the trinket 20% crit vs using a non stats trinket. Then again I upgraded mine to 543ilvl 2/2 since my luck with other trinkets was pretty awful at the start.

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