Thread: No flying 5.2

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  1. #381

  2. #382
    Pit Lord Doktor Faustus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    You shouldn't really compare Skyrim to WoW. You also shouldn't force your view of immersion and opinion down people's throats.




    False statistic that cannot be possibly proven.
    No shit Sherlock, read it as 'most of the players in WoW do not give two fucks about the lore, story or character development.

    I wish my world was as polarised as yours.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    He doesn't have to, he get's paid for the entire community to hate him. He's a joke card. He's like the president of the united states. He can say he will do this and that all he wants but it's really congress that's running the show.
    Again, think what you want. I'm under the impression you'd like to write him off as anything but credible because he doesn't share your opinion.

    The artificial gating via daily quests was created to combat horrific repeatable turn in quests or long quest chains that involved getting a reputation to exalted. It was also created with flying in mind (see Tbc) and still to this day we see the exact same trends as then. Large daily hubs separated by a wealth of landscape. The whole point of it being a convenience is what makes it important as a gameplay element, yet the only detraction I can see from your argument is they have to somehow work harder about content being consumed despite it already being staggered and the potentials of world pvp.
    Lol people did dailies in TBC so that they could fly. Even in daily hubs that were flying-only every objective could be easily accessed on the ground without crossing a "wealth of landscape." But things have changed since then because daily hubs are [i]now[i] made with flying in mind.
    Flying clearly isn't necessary for the gameplay element of dailies. It could make doing dailies more interesting, but instead it makes them even less interesting.

    Also, of course it adds nothing to gameplay because that isn't it's purpose. We don't use flying mounts actively whilst raiding or end game pvping so that entire point is moot. The artificial detraction you feel is very ill-founded.
    I love flying mounts. They aren't good for the game. My personal and objective views are separate and neither are ill-founded.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    Y
    A game whose business model is dependent on player time investment will be objectively better when people aren't zipping around completing tasks at the speed of light.
    Their business model isn't based on time logged-in but on time subscribed. And until you can proof that forcing people to stay online longer somehow makes them subscribe longer i don't see your point.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Their business model isn't based on time logged-in but on time subscribed. And until you can proof that forcing people to stay online longer somehow makes them subscribe longer i don't see your point.
    I don't have to prove it, it's just common sense. If players have more to do, they have reason to maintain their subscription. A great example of this idea in action is during 4.3, when after several months subs dropped by the millions due to lack of content.

  6. #386
    Titan Granyala's Avatar
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    I don't have to prove it, it's just common sense. If players have more to do, they have reason to maintain their subscription.
    Oh yeah? By that logic, asian grinders must be super successful.

    Guess what: People want to spend their free time doing stuff that is FUN and not splitting that valuable free time into doing annoying and tedious stuff to even get to the fun stuff.

    Yeah kids in their basements (It's a cliché, I know, just want to be clear) probably won't understand it, but most of the people treasure their few hours of free time.

    Convenience is good. Mindless convenience (a.k.a. Epics in mailbox) is obviously NOT good. A bit of inconvenience is also good (challenging raidbosses), mindless inconvenience (no flying at this point, massive grind) leads to frustration and lost subs.

    For many people the dailies are already too much mindless grind, that makes them quit. And your Idea is to bring MORE inconvenience and WASTED time into the game?!
    Last edited by Granyala; 2013-01-12 at 04:10 PM.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Oh yeah? By that logic, asian grinders must be super successful.

    Guess what: People want to spend their free time doing stuff that is FUN and not splitting that valuable free time into doing annoying and tedious stuff to even get to the fun stuff.

    Yeah kinds in their basements (It's a cliché, I know, just want to be clear) probably won't understand it, but most of the people treasure their few hours of free time.

    Convenience is good. Mindless convenience (a.k.a. Epics in mailbox) is obviously NOT good.
    The front page just showed a tweet answered by GC that suggested that Chinese WoW players, who make up the majority of the subscription base, play for prestige rather than fun. They are the sort of people the entire genre is tailored to.

    I am not arguing against convenience per se, only that flying mounts arguably add too much convenience.
    Also, if your goal is to spend your free time not doing tedious activities then it might be that MMORPGs aren't really tailored to your tastes.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    I don't have to prove it, it's just common sense. If players have more to do, they have reason to maintain their subscription. A great example of this idea in action is during 4.3, when after several months subs dropped by the millions due to lack of content.
    But traveling isn't really "something to do". Nobody logs in and thinks "Yay today i'll spend half my time online riding through zones". Traveling is not content, traveling is a time-sink. And we are talking about a daily zone here, so all the exploration factor goes away pretty quickly when you do the same quests again and again every day.

  9. #389
    Titan Granyala's Avatar
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    Also, if your goal is to spend your free time not doing tedious activities then it might be that MMORPGs aren't really tailored to your tastes.
    Well WoW is right now. But a few disgrunteled people like you are trying to change that.

    If WoW is too convenient for you, maybe it's not tailored to your tastes?

    *sorry could not resist*

    But traveling isn't really "something to do".
    Also this. Travel is fun for the first month. After that it's annoying as fuck to need 10mins to get anywhere.

    Disclaimer: I agree that flying mounts are problematic for PvP Servers and open world ganking. I'm talking from a PvE Server perspective.

  10. #390
    Sigh, rly unfortunate change

    Actual world pvp is stonedead and all things considered it should stay so.

    Why?

    1. Because pvp is at its all-time poorest balance between classes

    2. Because indeed there will be no real pvp. Only ganking n' griefing

    3. Because server inbalance will quickly lead to one faction that will be largely unable to quest


    When was the last time someone attacked you out in the open in an honest way? Aka not while pet-battling, fishing or engaged by several mobs? Thats right. Never.


    Why not just leave it at the world bosses? Killing the faction thats trying to down SoA is good fun and now there'll be 2 more to take up the role.

    What I rail against is that the isle won't be a pvp-zone. It'll be a grief zone.

  11. #391
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    Thread is pointless. GC confirmed that no flying mounts is a bug on the PTR.
    source please

  12. #392
    Titan Granyala's Avatar
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    Thread is pointless. GC confirmed that no flying mounts is a bug on the PTR.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Finally, I think we need to be able to mount in that instance. I think travel time is just going to be way too much of a problem otherwise.
    The fact that you cannot currently mount in the exterior ruins section of the zone is a bug.
    He is talking about the raid instance and ground mounts.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    The front page just showed a tweet answered by GC that suggested that Chinese WoW players, who make up the majority of the subscription base, play for prestige rather than fun. They are the sort of people the entire genre is tailored to.

    I am not arguing against convenience per se, only that flying mounts arguably add too much convenience.
    Also, if your goal is to spend your free time not doing tedious activities then it might be that MMORPGs aren't really tailored to your tastes.
    lololol no, wrong

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    But traveling isn't really "something to do". Nobody logs in and thinks "Yay today i'll spend half my time online riding through zones". Traveling is not content, traveling is a time-sink. And we are talking about a daily zone here, so all the exploration factor goes away pretty quickly when you do the same quests again and again every day.
    There is nothing wrong with time-sinks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Well WoW is right now. But a few disgrunteled people like you are trying to change that.

    If WoW is too convenient for you, maybe it's not tailored to your tastes?

    *sorry could not resist*
    I'm just making a suggestion to improve the game. Flying mounts are not a dealbreaker for me because I do enjoy flying, nor would I cry if they were removed.

    Also this. Travel is fun for the first month. After that it's annoying as fuck to need 10mins to get anywhere.

    Disclaimer: I agree that flying mounts are problematic for PvP Servers and open world ganking. I'm talking from a PvE Server perspective.
    One whole month of fun is pretty good, considering if you're doing your dailies daily you'll probably be where you want to by the one month mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatthefudge View Post
    lololol no, wrong
    If you can prove me wrong, please do; it's just the impression I'm under.

  15. #395
    Herald of the Titans Deathgoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Finally, I think we need to be able to mount in that instance. I think travel time is just going to be way too much of a problem otherwise.
    The fact that you cannot currently mount in the exterior ruins section of the zone is a bug.
    He is talking about the raid instance and ground mounts.
    Yeah, he was talking about the raid instance, but isn't it funny how a sentiment like "Oh, flying makes it too safe and convenient! Should remove flying!"
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    just wanted to clarify something r u now or have you ever been completely or partially against flying mounts?
    It's not that simple. It would be hard to remove them, yet we don't like how they minimize exploration, travel & sense of danger.
    gets tossed out there by Blizz, but "Running on foot in the raid takes too long. We'll let you use mounts!" is said the same day!!!

  16. #396
    Titan Granyala's Avatar
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    I'm just making a suggestion to improve the game.
    "Improving" according to YOUR opinion. Which is totally okay, everyone can put in suggestions
    But stop acting as if the removal of flying mounts would improve anything on an objective scale.

    "Oh, flying makes it too safe and convenient! Should remove flying!"
    Which is quite idiotic, if you ask me, because
    1) they constantly put oil in the fire.
    2) They removed every goddamn mob from the outdoor world that was even remotely able to kill you.

    I remember back in the day, feeling in real danger when I suddenly strolled into an area filled with elite. Trying to take a few down and dying in the progress, now THAT made the world feel mean and alive. Areas where you don't stand a chance on your own.

    But naaah they fill every spot with Mobs you can steamroll in greens and talk about how flying makes the world too safe. looool.

    One whole month of fun is pretty good,
    Agreed. But people want to play MMOs for years. (Blizzard wants that too)
    So at some point they need to add convenience.

    I think that getting flight once leveling journey is complete feels good and very rewarding. It's a perfect point to give the player convenience.

  17. #397
    Titan Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    Or, more likely, GC doesn't side with the pro-flyers. It isn't a stretch, judging by how he's balanced gameplay that he's an MMO purist at heart.
    I really don't think GC's taking 'sides' from an official standpoint, moreso that he's pointing out that he would have done things differently back in BC if it were his call on a personal basis. He also acknowledges that there's no simple answer in the debate between pro-flying and anti-flying and that it's unlikely they will be totally removed (besides, unlocking flight after a new expansion's level grind provides both a feeling of accomplishment and a nice gold sink)

    The convenience and ease of completing content while flying reduces the shelf-life of said content by making it take less time to complete. As a result, Blizzard is pressured to release more content in a shorter timeframe.
    I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. By keeping more content coming faster, they avoid the number one criticism that's often levied against MMORPGs: a world that grows stagnant between raid content updates.

  18. #398
    Personally it isn't flying that I'll miss, but the speed of the mounts. I hate the slow speed of ground mounts at times...

    -Grim

  19. #399
    So I will now have to ride everywhere on my ground mount while totally ignoring other players rather than flying there. Oh boy, that will totally add a lot to the experience. Or not. Just implement it on PvP servers since people there are so hungry for PvP yet apparently go out of their way not to do it so much that the developers have to facilitate it.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    "Improving" according to YOUR opinion. Which is totally okay, everyone can put in suggestions
    But stop acting as if the removal of flying mounts would improve anything on an objective scale.
    But it is on the objective scale. The more time people spend in the world, the longer they will maintain their subscriptions; this translates to increased revenue for Blizzard, which in turn translates to more and better quality products.

    Which is quite idiotic, if you ask me, because
    1) they constantly put oil in the fire.
    2) They removed every goddamn mob from the outdoor world that was even remotely able to kill you.

    I remember back in the day, feeling in real danger when I suddenly strolled into an area filled with elite. Trying to take a few down and dying in the progress, now THAT made the world feel mean and alive. Areas where you don't stand a chance on your own.

    But naaah they fill every spot with Mobs you can steamroll in greens and talk about how flying makes the world too safe. looool.
    Yeah I don't like how they handled that situation either. IMO they should reintroduce outdoor elite areas.

    Agreed. But people want to play MMOs for years. (Blizzard wants that too)
    So at some point they need to add convenience.

    I think that getting flight once leveling journey is complete feels good and very rewarding. It's a perfect point to give the player convenience.
    I agree, which is why I think a better solution to the flight problem would be to improve on its mechanics and flight's overall role in the game.
    For one thing, there should be more flying mobs, preferably elites that might hinder air travel. Daily quest areas should have defenses against flying enemies so that players can't drop straight down on their targets. To counterbalance this, all flying mounts should have vehicle mechanics that allow you to evade air attacks and retaliate. There should also be some way of using spells when in a dogfight or when facing anti-flying artillery. In order for the game to have this technical allowance, different types of combat should be implemented. That way, flight combat will function differently than ground combat in that you can't engage enemies that fight ground-style while flying.

    Flying could make for compelling gameplay, but as it exists now it's merely a convenience that arguably has a negative net effect on gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    I really don't think GC's taking 'sides' from an official standpoint, moreso that he's pointing out that he would have done things differently back in BC if it were his call on a personal basis. He also acknowledges that there's no simple answer in the debate between pro-flying and anti-flying and that it's unlikely they will be totally removed (besides, unlocking flight after a new expansion's level grind provides both a feeling of accomplishment and a nice gold sink)
    OK yeah, I agree.

    I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. By keeping more content coming faster, they avoid the number one criticism that's often levied against MMORPGs: a world that grows stagnant between raid content updates.
    Right, and I think the pressure that's put on Blizzard can be lessened by elongating certain aspects of gameplay.

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