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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Reakash View Post
    There were players doing 25K+ well before 4.1, check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-14HHdoQI just as an example video. During 4.2 (4.1 didn't offer any real power increases whatsoever, don't forget), it was ~30K+ that was expected from everyone, and by the end of 4.3 it was 50K+ if not more (The best players were hitting 60-70).
    And even with these numbers, we're only seeing a 100% increase within a single tier.

    I'll admit, I can't attest to Cataclysm, I took most of it off and didn't raid until Dragon Soul, but I went through TBC and Wrath from Karazhan/Naxx to Sunwell/ICC. The current difference is simply massive.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 03:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctifer616 View Post
    His post talks about the difference in numbers between someone in 440 ilvl gear and 490 ilvl gear. And that is true, the gap is huge, but we only see it in 5 mans. It is very unlikely that someone with ilvl 460 will start raiding in 5.2 raids with people that are 490+. He will most likely go do LFR and gear up to get to 480+ and then start raiding.

    It's not my own performance and personal well being I'm worried about. I've got that covered. I'm worried about the impact on the psyche of the majority of the more casual playerbase as the expansion continues.
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  2. #22
    i have experienced the same but dont draw the same conclusions. you're not making a clean comparison.
    dungeons are very random, you might save your cds for a boss they might blow them on trash. you have classes with great aoe that do crazy numbers on aoe trash, its hardly useful to compare.
    for the bosses themselves you should notice damage will be much more like you expect it with one exception which is very short fights. the guys in raid gear that know how to play can burst insane numbers of damage that slowly decline as they wait 2 minutes for their cds to come back up, but in a dungeon when you have a boss that is over quick they will do their burst, the boss dies and you will see that insanely inflated burst dps number.

    the thing is with numbers you have to figure out what does it actually mean and what is influencing it before you can compare it. in the example above we see that the number we get after a boss is down is not at all indicative for sustained damage. whereas we are relating and comparing it to sustained damage numbers we know from raid bosses.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    It's not my own performance and personal well being I'm worried about. I've got that covered. I'm worried about the impact on the psyche of the majority of the more casual playerbase as the expansion continues.
    That's interesting. Would there actually be an impact? When you see someone pulling a lot more dps than you, don't you go and check his gear. Upon seeing it, wouldn't it become clear why there is a difference, and how to make it smaller?

  4. #24
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Blizz is listening to the players that wanted linear raiding back. Those of us who aren't raiding by 5.2 will never raid in MoP.
    Unsubscribed as of 03/10/2014.

    If you dislike where WoW is headed in your mind, quit. Really. Sitting around complaining about "promises" that may or may not have been made isn't doing anything to help your cause. It's just making you look more and more like the constantly complaining and perpetually offended.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    My example wasn't even based off of "most people" vs "good players." I've been playing this game for a long time, and I might not be world top-level skilled, I still know my stuff.

    If I were going to go with a "most people" vs" "good players" scenario, "most people" would probably be closer to 15-20k right now, as a fresh 90.

    With your numbers, 15k was average for a fresh good player. Hell, I particularly remember beating up a target for 13.5k as Destruction. Going up to 20-30k in 4.1 was a matter of a 33-100% increase over two tiers. We've got a 400% increase within a single tier right now.
    Nah, "most people" average 30-60k in 5 mans these days, speaking from a lot of experience doing LFD. The very, very rare, exremely poor players are 15-20k. Decent/great players in decent/great gear are 130k+ average. Maybe there are some who pull higher numbers, but they must be very rare because I've never seen them.

    It's not very difficult to average 100k+ in a 5 man these days. My now apparently ironically named warlock averages 90k+ very easily in 5 mans, bursting much more than that on aoe, and doing a bit less single-target. My holy paladin averages ~55k most runs, while healing full-time any time that there's actually something to heal.

    40-60k dps average in a 5 man is very entry-level stuff, around pre-MSV-level.

    Anyway, 15-20k is extremely low. 30-40k is where you should be as a fresh lvl 90 dps in mostly blues with some heroic gear. 50k+ when entering MSV or LFR. That's for single target, of course. The increase hasn't been that big yet.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    It has been, during 4.0 most people did 6-7k dps while good players did 15k dps, it went up to 20-30k in 4.1
    You are wrong about that. DPS was lower than at the end of wotlk but it was never 6-7k in dungeon heroics. It probably was around 15-20k in heroic blues (flask and raid buffs included) going up to 30-35k in full BiS heroic raid gear. So a factor 2.

    (Pretty much the same way it is right now.)

    The jump is always greatest at the start of an expansion though because of how gearing works.

    People will easily be able to catch up. I expect 'free' ~ilvl500 gear will be given out in 5.2. Probably by dailies or the new scenarios.
    Last edited by gend; 2013-01-11 at 04:18 PM.

  7. #27
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    My holy paladin averages ~55k most runs
    Denounce needs a nerf.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 05:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    You are wrong about that. DPS was lower than at the end of wotlk but it was never 6-7k in dungeon heroics. It probably was around 18-20k in heroic blues going up to 30-35k in heroic raid gear. So a factor 2.

    (Pretty much the same way it is right now.)

    The jump is always greatest at the start of an expansion though because of how gearing works.

    People will easily be able to catch up. I expect 'free' ~ilvl500 gear will be given out in 5.2. Probably by dailies or the new scenarios.
    You're wrong there, it wasn't possible to exceed 15k-20k with full blues. Not even by hunters who were overpowered during that time.

  8. #28
    Idk I remember doing around 19k as a fire mage in BWD+BoT (heroic blues + few craftables/BoEs).

    Also the DPS requirement for reg Balroc was like 25k in 25man, and that fight was never hard in full 359s.

  9. #29
    The OP's post is just another post about the usual paranoia and tin-foil hat theories. The inflation is not any different than it ever has been. Toward the start of WoTLK, in less than full blue gear, people were doing 2-3k dps, and at the end of ICC, the people with 270+ ilevels were pulling 20k single target (before the 30% ICC buff) and almost 80-100k aoe dps on certain trash pulls.

    If you can't pull near 100k aoe dps on certain mop trash pulls, it's probably not a problem with your gear. It's a problem with either how your class's aoe works or that you just simple don't fully understand your class's aoe capabilities. Also, if there are other people with higher dps and aoe dps than yours, some packs might die so fast you don't have enough time to fully ramp up your rotation.

    But trust me. NO ONE should be doing 400% more dps than you with any level of currently obtained gear if you are level 90 and have at least a 440 ilevel. If they are, you have some things you need to learn about your class and how to play it.

    TL;DR - Stop blaming the non existent "super gear inflation" for your mediocre dps, and just get better. Buy a better computer. Read a guide. Figure it out on your owm. Just stop with the "inflation is SO much different than wotlk" because it's not. The larger numbers give off the illusion the difference is much higher than it actually is. Think of every 10k dps a player does as 1k dps in wotlk.

  10. #30
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    Idk I remember doing around 19k as a fire mage in BWD+BoT (heroic blues + few craftables/BoEs).

    Also the DPS requirement for reg Balroc was like 25k in 25man, and that fight was never hard in full 359s.
    Because of raid buffs, you don't have all those in a dungeon. As the OP is talking about dungeons.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Qly View Post
    wrath: 2-3 -> 20k
    cata: 6k -> 50k+
    mop: 30k -> ?

    I see some sort of pattern here, maybe it's the first time you geared up so late?
    You should've been doing well over 6k at the start of cata, something closer to 20k.

    As for people in heroics doing 100k-120k, very burst heavy classes, blowing their CDs and bursting a boss down which won't last very long will always have higher damage output and dps vs ramp up classes in heroic dungeons. An ele shammy popping ascendance is an insane amount of burst, for example.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 04:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Blizz is listening to the players that wanted linear raiding back. Those of us who aren't raiding by 5.2 will never raid in MoP.
    LFR counts as raiding in their eyes and if you are doing LFR now, you will have the ilvl to do LFR in 5.2 and if you're geared from that you will subsequently have the ilvl high enough for org siege or whatever else raid they may have before then.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    You know, you're right. But maybe I was underestimating final tier numbers, because the difference in the first tier alone has never been this big. (Well, I didn't raid Tier 11, so I don't know how that went).
    First you say you know that the difference in the first tier has NEVER been this large, then you go on to say you never raided t11 so you have no idea what the numbers were or how they went.

    The numbers are fine. There is no bigger difference in the starting gear to end tier gear now than there ever has been. It's all in your head because you seem to see larger numbers and can't differentiate that they are worth as much as WotLK and before were. If someone is doing 100k dps singletarget and you are doing 70k single target, that is the same as in LK when someone was doing 10k dps and you were doing 7k. See how 30k dps looks SO much further away than 3k dps and yet the percentage difference is exactly the same?

  13. #33
    Something has to change else we'll see insane numbers whenever the next xpac comes out. If we're looking at 500k dps in MoP we'll be well over 1m dps for the next xpac.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 04:49 PM ----------

    Either that or we need to start looking at DPS in a different light, like % of overall bosses HP you've removed or something. Then the numbers won't really matter.

  14. #34
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    400(mc) - 1500(naxx) in vanilla! lvl 60, with 62 skills from AQ20

    LK top end was around 25k with full heroic gear on saurfang. lvl 80

    100k at lvl 90 now... the dps to hp is scaling appropriately. End bosses will have about a billion hp in the near future.
    Last edited by kennyisnotdead; 2013-01-11 at 04:55 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navitas View Post
    Something has to change else we'll see insane numbers whenever the next xpac comes out. If we're looking at 500k dps in MoP we'll be well over 1m dps for the next xpac.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 04:49 PM ----------

    Either that or we need to start looking at DPS in a different light, like % of overall bosses HP you've removed or something. Then the numbers won't really matter.
    No, we just call it 500k. Absolutely no convenience-related difference between 500k dps and 500 dps. Both are equally easy to read and understand.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 05:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kennyisnotdead View Post
    LK top end was around 25k with full heroic gear on saurfang. lvl 80
    Proper people did 40-50k on him.

  16. #36
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    Dungeon wise:
    Wotlk:
    I can't say much on Wotlk cos I started in 3.2. However in 3.3 when I was level 80 and doing dungeons, newly 80 players were doing anywhere from 2-6k (200 ilvl items). People in raid gear from ICC were hitting the 10k mark (if they had time to hit that dps on a heroic dungeon boss, otherwise 8k might have been just as normal). People quoting higher dps are probably not taking into account the majority of high dps they did in wrath was down to the 30% buff.

    Cata:
    Cataclysm had people doing 10k in blues in heroic dungeons (less if they weren't very good), and had people going over 30k in 359 epics from tier 11 raids.

    Mop:
    As the OP says 30-40k in dungeon blues, 100k+ in raid gear.

    It does seem to be a growing trend and gap, and that is down to exponential item level increases... I always thought it makes 0 sense to do it exponentially but I'm not a game designer so I don't know why they do it.

    Either way, I'd be grateful for people doing uber dps, cos it would mean newly dinged 90's are able to finish their dungeon faster and gear up faster, allowing them to finish their dungeons even faster and get MORE gear faster, and repeat. Huge dps gap isn't really an issue (IMO).

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    You should've been doing well over 6k at the start of cata, something closer to 20k.
    Many classes were doing low damage in the very beginning. If we're talking about average players in blues and maybe one or two greens, I wouldn't have expected to see them exceeding 12k if even that in a raid, depending on their class. However, few epics alone would bump this to close to 20k. Hit rating for one made a massive difference.

    Qly's numbers are very accurate for the most part, but only for when the people were just reaching the maximum level and running some heroics. Dungeon runs will also be lower dps compared to raids unless the tank is efficient at pulling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    No, we just call it 500k. Absolutely no convenience-related difference between 500k dps and 500 dps. Both are equally easy to read and understand.
    I think that 500 dps is much more aesthetically pleasing and fitting for an RPG. There is more to it than just the mathematics behind it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Proper people did 40-50k on him.
    I'm curious to know what kind of people you were raiding with.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyisnotdead View Post
    400(mc) - 1500(naxx) in vanilla! lvl 60, with 62 skills from AQ20

    LK top end was around 25k with full heroic gear on saurfang. lvl 80

    100k at lvl 90 now... the dps to hp is scaling appropriately. End bosses will have about a billion hp in the near future.
    Quite a few bosses have over 1B in this tier. Heroic Wind Lord (25) has 1.8Bil, Heroic Sha has 1.7. Garalon (factoring in legs) I believe is close as well.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Blizz is listening to the players that wanted linear raiding back. Those of us who aren't raiding by 5.2 will never raid in MoP.
    I must of missed the blues post where they mentioned how they were deleting MSV, HOF and Terrace once 5.2 comes out, then deleting the 5.2 raid when the next one comes out......otherwise you could just go back to those and raid to get suitable gear to keep progressing on newer content

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Blizz is listening to the players that wanted linear raiding back. Those of us who aren't raiding by 5.2 will never raid in MoP.
    Is that why the Throne of Thunder is a nonlinear raid?

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