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  1. #41
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Attackrabbit View Post
    I must of missed the blues post where they mentioned how they were deleting MSV, HOF and Terrace once 5.2 comes out, then deleting the 5.2 raid when the next one comes out......otherwise you could just go back to those and raid to get suitable gear to keep progressing on newer content
    Not only this but GC has made noises that they're well aware of the issue of catching up but don't wish to make it too quick to do. They are raising the drop rates for 5.X older LFR raids once the new one comes out so if you're diligent you should be able to get to where you need to be.

    Anyone wanting an instant way to catch up is going to be disappointed. The trick is to have it be a feasible thing but not take the length of an entire patch to do. At the rate that patches have been coming along, that very well could be a difficult trick. Blizzard misjudges these balancing acts all the time so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

    At least they seem to be aware of the problem. For those with a sense of history that's a sort of progress. As much as people like to complain about the shortcomings of LFR, it actually has made it possible to do progression raiding again with the severity of most of the problems that existed in BC related to this much reduced.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-01-11 at 05:34 PM.
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  2. #42
    I think part of it is due to LFR gear being an "in between".

    Cata heroics - ilvl 346
    Cata T11 - ilvl 359

    MoP heroics - ilvl 463
    MoP T14 - ilvl 489

  3. #43
    I was actually talking about this with a friend the other day. I've been raiding forever on my main toon. This expansion, I've had terrible luck with weapon drops as in i was using heroic blue weapons until this past Wednesday when a main hand dropped. I watched myself go from top dps at the start of the expansion to dead last in the last few weeks just because of my weapon luck. Replacing jus my main hand brought me back up to top 5 dps (25 man). The reason? I went from a 471 (upgraded) blue to a 504 (upgraded) purple in a single slot. That's a 33 ilvl gap between a 5 man weapon and a normal mode first tier weapon. That's insane. We've never had that high of a gap from 5 man to normal mode firdt tier before and its because of LFR.

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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    As for people in heroics doing 100k-120k, very burst heavy classes, blowing their CDs and bursting a boss down which won't last very long will always have higher damage output and dps vs ramp up classes in heroic dungeons. An ele shammy popping ascendance is an insane amount of burst, for example.
    Wonderful example. My shaman wasn't too well geared from Cataclysm and when I hit 90, I was pulling somewhere between 18-20k. After improving my gear to 474 ilevel, I'm hitting around 40-45k, and with Ascendance running, I've even seen up to 130k, though that may be due in part to Elemental Blast prior to activating it.

  5. #45
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with your observation, I've noticed it similarly myself in LFR where someone in LFR gear and some normal mode raid gear is so far behind someone in normal/heroic mode raid gear that it doesn't matter what amount of skill they have, it's impossible to keep up due to the gear discrepancy.

    Honestly, I was hoping it's because it's the first tier. Obviously we didn't have LFR in early Cata to compare what it's like at the start of an expansion, but I really don't think there was as much of a gear discrepancy in DS LFRs that I did as there is now. Just hoping it evens itself out in the later tiers so that skill can somewhat make up for such large gear discrepancies.
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  6. #46
    I'm not seeing anyone in 5 mans pulling 100-120K dps.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 08:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Anyway, 15-20k is extremely low. 30-40k is where you should be as a fresh lvl 90 dps in mostly blues with some heroic gear. 50k+ when entering MSV or LFR. That's for single target, of course. The increase hasn't been that big yet.
    I was in a LFR group yesterday on Will. There were two dps above 50K. One hunter didn't even break 20K. The group was overwhelmed by adds it couldn't bring down fast enough.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    I'm curious to know what kind of people you were raiding with.
    Maybe private realm or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm not seeing anyone in 5 mans pulling 100-120K dps.
    Don't know as a decently geared warrior it doesn't feel that hard to pull off. Of course 5 mans are a lot of cleave and so but still even on bosses it's usually not that much of a problem as they aren't lasting very long.
    Personally I definitely feel that the ilvl rise is way to steep especially with the introduction of upgrading.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    When Mists first launched, I leveled and was playing my Warrior before my guild sort of disintegrated right as we were starting to raid (one of the oldest guilds on the server, had been doing 10 mans for the past expansion and a half, and wanted to get back into 25 mans, but couldn't fill the raids). I was in heroic dungeon gear, like everyone else. On average, my warrior was pulling about 60k DPS. Some people were higher, some were lower, but everyone I raided with was just about in that range, except for a handful of terrible recruits we tried out.

    It's been a few months since then, and I decided to get on my Warlock and try to get some Tier 14 in before 5.2 hits.

    Last night, I got him to 90, crafted full 450 contender's silk, plus the JC rings and neck, and grabbed the 450 staff from the Arena scenario. All gear reforged and enchanted properly save for shoulder inscription, lightweave embroidery (forgot I was a tailor until I was looking at my armory during break at work XD) and spellthread (and obviously, I'm not about to put Jade Spirit on a 450 staff). I also still have a couple of low slots to fill (cloak and 1 trinket are still greens, helm is 442) Only self buffed and not in a party, I was pulling 35k on the target dummy, and somewhere in the area of 40k in five mans, with burst capability somewhere in the 60k's. According to simulationcraft, this is about right for my gear/enchants.

    The thing is, when I hop into 5 mans, I already feel completely worthless because people in raid gear are pulling 100-120k DPS. That's a 300% to 400% DPS difference between fresh 90's in pre-heroic dungeon gear and people in gear from the first raid tier of the expansion.

    I've never seen such a huge difference during the first tier.

    If this trend continues, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the final tier for mists generates upwards of 400-500k DPS. That's more than 10 times the damage of a fresh 90. How is someone even supposed to compete when someone does 1000% of the damage you're capable of doing? Granted, I'm sure there will be SOMETHING to catch people up just a little bit more quickly later on than the current options (hopefully nothing on the caliber of the Hour of Twilight heroics, though), but still...

    Damn.
    5 mans have never been a great judge of sustained DPS. Hell my hunter when first going into 5 mans was able to pull 100k dps on a boss fight just due to how quickly heroic 5 man bosses go down and the burst nature of BM.

    They are raid geared in 5 man dungeons they should be pulling quite a bit more than someone with at least a 40 point ilevel difference and no set bonuses.

    If you pull 60k and they pull 120k that's only a 200% difference not the 300-400 you claim it to be.
    Last edited by Xeraxis; 2013-01-11 at 09:00 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    As for people in heroics doing 100k-120k, very burst heavy classes, blowing their CDs and bursting a boss down which won't last very long will always have higher damage output and dps vs ramp up classes in heroic dungeons. An ele shammy popping ascendance is an insane amount of burst, for example.
    This is something that I've considered. But when the burst phase wears off (Hell, my own DPS nearly doubles when I pop all my cooldowns at the start of a fight), the higher end of the spectrum of geared raiders drop in damage at a seemingly less substantial degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    The OP's post is just another post about the usual paranoia and tin-foil hat theories. The inflation is not any different than it ever has been. Toward the start of WoTLK, in less than full blue gear, people were doing 2-3k dps, and at the end of ICC, the people with 270+ ilevels were pulling 20k single target (before the 30% ICC buff) and almost 80-100k aoe dps on certain trash pulls.
    I'm not paranoid. I don't have tin-foil hat theories. The inflation IS different. I don't care about inflation. I don't care about how big numbers are. Numbers can be however big they want to be. I'm talking about the difference. There has never been nearly as large of a gap between fresh 90 gear, and end-of-first-tier gear. Ever. And while item level might be relative, and not absolute, the actual performance between the numbers does show a significant difference.

    If you can't pull near 100k aoe dps on certain mop trash pulls, it's probably not a problem with your gear. It's a problem with either how your class's aoe works or that you just simple don't fully understand your class's aoe capabilities. Also, if there are other people with higher dps and aoe dps than yours, some packs might die so fast you don't have enough time to fully ramp up your rotation.
    I don't care about dungeon trash either. That's not what I'm talking about.

    But trust me. NO ONE should be doing 400% more dps than you with any level of currently obtained gear if you are level 90 and have at least a 440 ilevel. If they are, you have some things you need to learn about your class and how to play it.
    I don't need to trust you. I have zero doubts in my capabilities. My performance is backed by both my own simulations and anecdotal evidence from fellow raiders.

    TL;DR - Stop blaming the non existent "super gear inflation" for your mediocre dps, and just get better. Buy a better computer. Read a guide. Figure it out on your owm. Just stop with the "inflation is SO much different than wotlk" because it's not. The larger numbers give off the illusion the difference is much higher than it actually is. Think of every 10k dps a player does as 1k dps in wotlk.
    Your condescending tone is both unwanted and unjustified. I'm not blaming anything on anything. I'm simply stating an observation. I have a history of being one of the very well performing player across several multiple classes as both a damage dealer and a healer. The only thing I don't really have a good reputation for is tanking raids. I have several tank characters, but I play them for their DPS specs in raids. I simply have no interest in tanking raids, but I'll fill a spot if my guild/raid group's in dire need.

    All of this information is entirely irrelevant, however, because this thread isn't about me. This thread isn't about my performance. Stop trying to make it so.

    For some reason, some people want to argue about everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    First you say you know that the difference in the first tier has NEVER been this large, then you go on to say you never raided t11 so you have no idea what the numbers were or how they went.
    That's called realizing one's mistake. Any decently intelligent person should be able to swallow their pride, and admit they were wrong. But this was only a small portion of my argument. I do remember how Cataclysm started compared to how it ended, however. I remember this quite clearly.[/quote]

    It's all in your head because you seem to see larger numbers and can't differentiate that they are worth as much as WotLK and before were. If someone is doing 100k dps singletarget and you are doing 70k single target, that is the same as in LK when someone was doing 10k dps and you were doing 7k. See how 30k dps looks SO much further away than 3k dps and yet the percentage difference is exactly the same?[/QUOTE]

    You're not seriously about to try and assault my intelligence with that. Oh wait, you just did.

    I. Don't. Care. About the numbers themselves. Not one bit. Big numbers are fun. I'm talking about the difference between the numbers, and the difference is there.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    You're not seriously about to try and assault my intelligence with that. Oh wait, you just did.

    I. Don't. Care. About the numbers themselves. Not one bit. Big numbers are fun. I'm talking about the difference between the numbers, and the difference is there.
    The difference is still the same however a 30% margin which is extremely acceptable for the large gap in ilevel. You just don't want to admit that the difference between 70k and 100k is the same as the difference between 7k and 10k.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 09:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Not only this but GC has made noises that they're well aware of the issue of catching up but don't wish to make it too quick to do. They are raising the drop rates for 5.X older LFR raids once the new one comes out so if you're diligent you should be able to get to where you need to be.
    Plus has anyone noticed the discovery patterns that have been datamined for tailoring. Something tells me we may see 483 gear that can be crafted to ease the transition from fresh 90 to ToTK LFR capable.

  11. #51
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Most people don't differentiate based on percentages, they just look at Recount/Skada and point fingers. Given the nature of 5-man's though (and LFR) it's a legitimate player concern to be just starting to gear up after getting to 90 and to be running 30K+ behind other players in the group based strictly on gear, not actual performance. While the percentages may well be the same as previous gear iterations I don't believe that anyone here is oblivious to the simple fact that in terms of pure damage numbers, being that far behind can be a social problem in randoms.
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  12. #52
    I don't think there is a significant issue here - Looking strictly at a single target raid encounter, I was doing about 70k DPS in 463~464 preraid gear, and about ~120k now at 506ish. It's very unfair to compare top players in optimal raid gear to fresh level 90s when there is not only a gear difference but also a huge experience difference.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntardicus View Post
    Cata:
    Cataclysm had people doing 10k in blues in heroic dungeons (less if they weren't very good), and had people going over 30k in 359 epics from tier 11 raids.
    In my experience, heroic dungeon blues were closer to around 15k.

    Mop:
    As the OP says 30-40k in dungeon blues, 100k+ in raid gear.
    It does seem to be a growing trend and gap, and that is down to exponential item level increases... [/quote]

    And that is the point I've been trying to make.

    I always thought it makes 0 sense to do it exponentially but I'm not a game designer so I don't know why they do it.
    I'm a little foggy on the actual item level numbers from back in TBC, but I remember the Wrath ones quite clearly. It was much more linear.

    Looking back at Cataclysm, pre-heroic dungeon blues at 85 were iLvl 333. Heroic end-tier items were just over 400, so it was about a total difference of 70. Heroic dungeon blues were 346. 13 item level difference. First raid and rep reward epics were 359. Again, a difference of 13. Heroic items were 372. And again, a difference of 13. Then things got a little messy Tier 12 and Tier 13 on behalf of Hour of Twilight Heroics and Raid Finder, but it remained a pretty common interval.

    Wrath, we started at 200. Naxx 25 was 213. There goes that number again. Ulduar was 226...

    Now looking at MoP, we start at 440. Heroic blues are 463. Difference of 23. Raid finder is 483. Difference of 20. Normal raids are 496. Well, hey there 13. I missed ya, buddy. But look at the difference betwee 463 and 496. 33. Look at the difference between 440 and 509, the item level of Heroic Terrace gear - 69. That's already as big of an item level difference within the first raid tier than we've seen in the past throughout a whole expansion. There are even a handful of 516 items available.

    And the gap's only going to be getting bigger and bigger, and player performance reflects it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 09:54 PM ----------

    [QUOTE=Xeraxis;19791048]The difference is still the same however a 30% margin which is extremely acceptable for the large gap in ilevel. You just don't want to admit that the difference between 70k and 100k is the same as the difference between 7k and 10k.


    It IS the same percentage difference. I have not ONCE ever denied that. The thing is, it's not a difference between 70k and 100k. It's a difference between 40k and 120k. 4k to 12k in a single tier would've been preposterous during Wrath. 15k to 45k in a single tier in in Cataclysm equally so.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    It IS the same percentage difference. I have not ONCE ever denied that. The thing is, it's not a difference between 70k and 100k. It's a difference between 40k and 120k. 4k to 12k in a single tier would've been preposterous during Wrath. 15k to 45k in a single tier in in Cataclysm equally so.
    So first you state that you were bursting for 60k in 5 mans and now it's only 40k? If the rest of your run is doing 120k as you so like to point out how are you not downing the bosses still during your burst? Plus you still fail to acknowledge the fact that you are in sub 450 gear and most raiders are in 496 gear if not higher. Do you not expect to do much lower damage when there is a 50 ilevel gap and set bonuses, legendary gems, actually enchanting their gear properly, and much more powerful trinkets? It seems like you want raiders damage to be lowered or yours raised but then what would be the point of attaining better gear if the gap is negligible?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    While the percentages may well be the same as previous gear iterations
    I am not even too sure on that one. I mean we aren't even really seeing the end yet as there literally can't be someone with fully upgraded gear yet. 14-16k was decent dps around the first id of normal kills while 24k was a good value for heroic endboss kills.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-01-11 at 11:43 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    So first you state that you were bursting for 60k in 5 mans and now it's only 40k? If the rest of your run is doing 120k as you so like to point out how are you not downing the bosses still during your burst? Plus you still fail to acknowledge the fact that you are in sub 450 gear and most raiders are in 496 gear if not higher. Do you not expect to do much lower damage when there is a 50 ilevel gap and set bonuses, legendary gems, actually enchanting their gear properly, and much more powerful trinkets? It seems like you want raiders damage to be lowered or yours raised but then what would be the point of attaining better gear if the gap is negligible?
    He doesn't want to come to terms with the fact that what he "sees" and what is actually in front of him are two separate entities. He FEELS the gap is much larger than previous expansions, but in reality it's not.

    He argues 4k-12k would have been a preposterous difference in the first tier of wrath, and yet people in blues started out doing 2-3k while people in full 200+ epic gear were doing 8-9k if they were decent. The terrible players or terribly undergeared players (MoP's "40-50k" players) were only doing 1.5k single target in 5man heroics. I remember it clearly. By the end of the expansion, people were doing 20-25k single target in high end raiding guilds with full heroic gear. Wrath started from 2k dps and went up to 25k dps at the end of the expansion. That is effectively a 12.5x multiplier on the damage from start to finish. But it's NEVER been that simple. It varied on the fight, which is exactly the way it is now in MoP. It varied on skill level, which is exactly the way it is now in MoP. It varied on computer performance and internet connection, which is exactly the way it is now in MoP.

    And yet, somehow, someway, the gap is "different."

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