1. #1

    avenging wrath discussion

    Retribution paladins bust is high but sustain damage is low compared to other classes, any chance on a buff on sustain dps?
    This is common feedback, but not sure how to fix. Wings to 10% or a 5 min timer? Ick? (Source)

    from the frontpage. my personal opinion on this is that a straight 20% damage buff is too bland, too easy to use and is outdated. in addition, it also has the secondary effect of increasing healing done. the only other straight up 20% damage/healing buff is a T6 druid talent. somewhat close are arcane mage (but also with a mana cost) and windwalker monks (with a rampup time). every other CD is something that isn't just a 20% damage buff, and i understand that most of them don't amount to a 20% damage buff.

    so i wanted to see if we, as a community, could come up with some way of making avenging wrath something other than just a straight up 20% buff.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  2. #2
    Up the damage ALL our attacks do, increase the CD of AW to 3 mins, increase it's duration too 20/25 secs, make it so everytime we DO use HoW during AW, it decreases it's duration by 2/5 seconds. That way, reduces our burst, doesn't affect PvE as we're no where near top of the pack in PvE, gives a burst option in PvP but doesn't go over the top with it. That or keep AW as it is, reduce the damage it gives us too 10%/15% and up the damage ALL our attacks do. Either way, CS, TV, Exo etc need too hit harder.

    Just a suggestion =]

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Oogabewga View Post
    Up the damage ALL our attacks do, increase the CD of AW to 3 mins, increase it's duration too 20/25 secs,]
    AW is already 3 min cd and lasts 20 seconds

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Oogabewga View Post
    Up the damage ALL our attacks do, increase the CD of AW to 3 mins, increase it's duration too 20/25 secs, make it so everytime we DO use HoW during AW, it decreases it's duration by 2/5 seconds. That way, reduces our burst, doesn't affect PvE as we're no where near top of the pack in PvE, gives a burst option in PvP but doesn't go over the top with it. That or keep AW as it is, reduce the damage it gives us too 10%/15% and up the damage ALL our attacks do. Either way, CS, TV, Exo etc need too hit harder.

    Just a suggestion =]
    that would make sanctified wrath by far the worst talent. I think we just need to redesign AW in the entirety. currently it simply gives a straight up 20% damage buff. every single other CD in the game gives a stat or affects one or more abilities, which usually isn't as powerful.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  5. #5
    20% more dmg isnt outdated or bland imo. I think its a great dps cd considering ret is a dmg spec.

  6. #6
    Apologies, still in the Cata mindset. Just got back. But you understand my mindset, increase it's CD and duration. If not, increases it's CD, but up the damage of all our other attacks. but have it so everytime we use HoW DURING AW it reduces it's duration, could be an option for a gimmicky (yay another one) solution.

    PS Nzall. That or redesign AW. As w/o 4 piece tier, Sanc Wrath is one of the least DPS increasing talents, as most people go HA/DP.

    Either way, only way we can increase our sustained damage and reduce our burst damage is increasing our normal abilities, CS, Exo, Judge etc and reducing our burst abilites damage % increase. I get where they think THAT is a bit bland, but without making a stupid gimmick which Ret has been plagued with for god knows how long, that's the only way.
    Last edited by Oogabewga; 2013-01-14 at 12:47 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    that would make sanctified wrath by far the worst talent. I think we just need to redesign AW in the entirety. currently it simply gives a straight up 20% damage buff. every single other CD in the game gives a stat or affects one or more abilities, which usually isn't as powerful.
    I can only think of a few abilities that give primary stats and the ones that give a boost that is then additive to secondary stats are extremely powerful and typically a straight boost across the board to the characters primary and secondary roles.

    Really it comes down to Wings isn't all that much of a problem, I think all paladins need to start looking at a paradigm shift regarding our burst vs. sustained and ask why we're tied to that.

    Really to me it comes down to our hand spells, our sustained is kept low because our utility is always high. Whether it's instant heals from Selfless Healer, sacred shield bubble, hand or protection, hand of freedom or hand of purity they all equal big reasons to have a paladin of any sort in the raid and with them we lose DPS.

    That's the only thing I can really see for lagging DPS as most classes have as many if not more burst DPS cooldowns.

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
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    I think what could fix our sustain dmg in my personal opinion if they these changes:

    1- Decrease AW to 10% instead of 20% but reduce it's cd back to 2 mins.

    2- Buff Sword of light passive to increase our dmg when using two handed weapon by 15% instead of just 10%.

    issues solved.

    I know some people will say no ! this will make Retri so op ! but no I don't think so they will get better for sure but our burst will be lower than now and our sustain dmg will be way much better overall.

  9. #9
    If anything AW needs to be longer duration considering how much we are CCed while its up

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vathius View Post
    If anything AW needs to be longer duration considering how much we are CCed while its up
    This right here, popping wings is a certain way to get a CC chain going on, on you..

    I honestly cant see a way Blizz can make rets less burst class (atleast without a big patch or something), there is just so many things.

    But the easiest way to deal with AW is to reduce CD and DMG, and maybe give it a longer duration. But two mins? Would be a dps buff as we could stack it with every HA + trinket.
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  11. #11
    most other CD's either affect 1 or more abilities (ascendance, holy avenger, shadow blades to name a few), grant stats (elemental mastery, recklessness, rapid fire), or summon a guardian (stampede, guardian of ancient kings, feral spirits). there are only 3 other CD's that give pure +damage, and every one of them has a specific extra effect: arcane power also has a drawback; nature's vigil also gives splash healing; avatar also breaks roots. avenging wrath is just +healing and is a simply bland CD. that's the problem with it. it's easy to balance, true, but it also has a pretty constant effect.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sololux View Post
    20% more dmg isnt outdated or bland imo. I think its a great dps cd considering ret is a dmg spec.
    In Wrath it also caused our attacks to bypass 50% of any damage reduction effects. So if a mob had 99% dmg reduction (like the skeleton adds on Deathwhisper), with wings up I still did 50% of my normal damage to them.

  13. #13
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    avenging wrath is just +healing and is a simply bland CD.
    And allows you to use Hammer of Wrath for the duration. That may not seem huge, but it makes it a lot more interesting than a simple +damage buff.

  14. #14
    Don't care what happens to AW aslong as they don't nerf it for holy pve :P

  15. #15
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    I don't know about the reduction in cd time and the 10% nerf etc blablabla

    Bottom line is....... retri v any healer is still not doable. As a retri you can't kill a decent healer. Nope, not possible!

    So stop talking about nerfs, we need avenging wrath down to 2minutes and get a sustain damage buff that puts us back with the other classes.

    That would "balance" it in blizzard their theory.

    My theory is that other classes just need to get their sustain damaged NERFED to be on the spot where retri paladins are.

  16. #16
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubadudu View Post
    I don't know about the reduction in cd time and the 10% nerf etc blablabla

    Bottom line is....... retri v any healer is still not doable. As a retri you can't kill a decent healer. Nope, not possible!

    So stop talking about nerfs, we need avenging wrath down to 2minutes and get a sustain damage buff that puts us back with the other classes.

    That would "balance" it in blizzard their theory.

    My theory is that other classes just need to get their sustain damaged NERFED to be on the spot where retri paladins are.
    First of all you as a dpser shouldn't be able to zerg and solo a healer in 1 vs 1 unless you outgear the player like hell or the healer doesn't know how to play. Second who said we are talking about pvp and against healers? we are talking in general about AW and our sustain dmg is really bad because we are just depending on AW + guardian to be able to do some crazy burst but when these are in cds we are screwed.

  17. #17
    merge the visuals and HoW unlocking of AW with GoAK but not the 20% damage increase. Reduce it's cooldown to 3 minutes and buff TV CS EXO etc accordingly.

    Oh, and of course make Sanctified Wrath work with GoAK.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    so i wanted to see if we, as a community, could come up with some way of making avenging wrath something other than just a straight up 20% buff.
    Problem.
    Paladin burst is too high

    Cause:
    Multiple CDs stack too effectively.

    Solution:
    Redesign CDs, redistribute damage to sustained damage mechanics.

    1: Avenging Wrath - reduce effect.
    Undesireable. One of the nice things about AW is that at 20% it actually has a noticeable effect.

    2: Avenging Wrath - increase CD
    Better, but still has the problem that you can stack CDs

    3: Lower CD of Execution Sentence/Lights Hammer
    Available more often, less burst

    4: Remove one CD
    3 CDs (AW, GAnK and HA) is one too many. Is HA needed?

    5: GAnK moves to a 10 min CD
    Require new spells for Holy and Prot

    6: New mechanic -e.g fatigue, Forbearance
    Prevents CD stacking

    Personally?
    AW is fine. About the only change you could really argue for is an increased CD to 5 minutes.
    GAnK? Would be a better thematic fit if the Paladin transformed into the GAnK.
    HA? Nice graphic.

    Personally? I'd move GAnK to a 10 min CD, make it a transformation instead of a summon with Forbearance and a possible tie in with US, and get rid of the HA mechanic. Then look at the CDs for ES and LH.

    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    most other CD's either affect 1 or more abilities (ascendance, holy avenger, shadow blades to name a few), grant stats (elemental mastery, recklessness, rapid fire), or summon a guardian (stampede, guardian of ancient kings, feral spirits). there are only 3 other CD's that give pure +damage, and every one of them has a specific extra effect: arcane power also has a drawback; nature's vigil also gives splash healing; avatar also breaks roots. avenging wrath is just +healing and is a simply bland CD. that's the problem with it. it's easy to balance, true, but it also has a pretty constant effect.
    So, other similar abilities are interesting because they have secondary effects but AW is bland because it has a secondary effect you don't like?

    As it is, AW looks good, it feels like it has an actual impact and currently its CD is long enough to make you think, short enough that you aren't in that "maybe it'll be better if I save it for later" place.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-15 at 12:33 PM.

  19. #19
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubadudu View Post
    I don't know about the reduction in cd time and the 10% nerf etc blablabla

    Bottom line is....... retri v any healer is still not doable. As a retri you can't kill a decent healer. Nope, not possible!

    So stop talking about nerfs, we need avenging wrath down to 2minutes and get a sustain damage buff that puts us back with the other classes.

    That would "balance" it in blizzard their theory.

    My theory is that other classes just need to get their sustain damaged NERFED to be on the spot where retri paladins are.
    If my cooldowns are up I can kill a similarly geared disc priest or monk. Holy priest it almost doesn't matter what gear they just die. The other healers I can kill if their cooldowns are down and mine are up. I'm also have the opinion that healers shouldn't be able to be soloed though.

    Survivability is rets issue in pvp anyways.

  20. #20
    ah, forgot about AW unlocking HoW. my bad.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

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