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  1. #41
    Those are a lot of posts to quote and respond to. I think this topic has been stretched out quite a bit already so I'm not going to quote everyone.

    I think Envenom was great when it was released in TBC (if I'm not mistaken, I didn't play in TBC so forgive me if I make any mistakes). What it did in TBC was consume all your Deadly Poison stacks, and then deal instant poison damage compared to what your Deadly Poison dot would have done if it ticked it's full duration, and then increases your chance to apply Deadly Poison again. So as an Assassination Rogue you were constantly building up your Deadly Poison, instantly doing all the poison damage and then get a boost to build them back up again. Over the years this concept got changed, altered, improved and now it's simply a weird concept that doesn't make much sense. It's just an Eviscerate that deals nature damage and gives you a higher chance to apply more nature damage. It's weird, and the whole concept and idea behind the ability is now lost.

    I'm not sure what you mean with the Warrior examples though, I'd say all Warrior abilities make perfect sense and fit their theme really well. Even Dragon Roar makes perfect sense, Warriors or mainly Fury Warriors have always had abilities related to shouting. Dragon Roar is merely a large deafening shout. But anyway off topic.

    Everything aside, I will continue to whine and complain about not getting a poison smoke bomb for as long as I play this game.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  2. #42
    The problem with the original envenom (iirc) was that it was a dps loss over eviscerate due to losing your deadly stacks and that it was only marginally more damage than an evis. I do like that idea infinitely better, but it means they need to let envenom hit substantially harder than they seem willing.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    The problem with the original envenom (iirc) was that it was a dps loss over eviscerate due to losing your deadly stacks and that it was only marginally more damage than an evis. I do like that idea infinitely better, but it means they need to let envenom hit substantially harder than they seem willing.
    Heh yea. Like I said I didn't play in TBC, but I do read up on past versions of abilities and design choices. What I very well remember reading was all the complaining and math about the ''new'' Envenom hardly being worth it. That was a bit of a mess up I'd say.

    It just makes me a little sad that the original idea fit so well and worked in such a unique way, while now we have this abomination that just feels like a nature version of Eviscerate.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-01-14 at 02:04 AM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean with the Warrior examples though, I'd say all Warrior abilities make perfect sense and fit their theme really well. Even Dragon Roar makes perfect sense, Warriors or mainly Fury Warriors have always had abilities related to shouting. Dragon Roar is merely a large deafening shout.
    Exactly my point! They fit the theme! As long as that is the case, they can pretty much do anything they'd like to the class. Giving them what essentially is the hammer of the god of war and thunder, Thor, is a nice addendum, considering they're all Warriors with an affinity for war - Thor, being the god of war, is therefore a great source of inspiration for new abilities. The ability doesn't fit the role, however. There's no reason for a Warrior to be able to produce a "lightning-hammer"... It's pure fantasy, and ridiculously unrealistic...! A roar so loud and fierce, it damages opponents, is no different. I understand the notion of a "battle roar, increasing endurance or morale" - but a roar that flat-out damages opponents is ridiculous... But it all fits their theme so perfectly well! Which is why it's forgivable.

    Enter rogues and the argument of "rogues are stealthy, they therefore can't have shiny stuff." Bullshit, I say, for reasons already mentioned.

  5. #45
    imo finishers should be taken off GCD and should only consume combo points the doubly dip in resouces feels penalizing to me
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    imo finishers should be taken off GCD and should only consume combo points the doubly dip in resouces feels penalizing to me
    Oh, yes, very much agree.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Oh, yes, very much agree.
    also agree to yout previous posts rogues lost their identity over time we need a serious revamp there was a time where i enjoyed sneaking aroung killing my opponent out of stelth of just stunthem do damage and vanish and reinitiate but this time is long gone.
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

  8. #48
    Oh I'm sorry I didn't quite get that. I would never say that Rogues can't get shiny stuff because of their stealthy theme, am I saying that it wouldn't make much sense for them to get a high damage AoE finisher that does straight up damage, hence the example with swinging a giant mace around. It needs to be a bit more...subtle. Crimson Tempest was a good idea with the bleed but that's not very practical. Blade Flurry copying Crimson Tempest making it activate twice would work in my opinion.

    God knows why finisher consume energy and combo points. I don't think they should be taken off the global cooldown as that would make waiting for energy a much bigger problem than it already is, but it makes no sense for them to consume combo points and energy in my opinion.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-01-14 at 02:56 AM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  9. #49
    Makes even less sense when you think of Ruthlessness and how it essentially removes the energy cost anyway... It's essentially just a unimaginative way of forcing us to always use 5 point finishers.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Makes even less sense when you think of Ruthlessness and how it essentially removes the energy cost anyway... It's essentially just a unimaginative way of forcing us to always use 5 point finishers.
    because low CP finishers would make a great DPS boost right ? ^^
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    because low CP finishers would make a great DPS boost right ? ^^
    Well... Yes, and no. Reading the tooltip of each finisher, each combo point adds an equal amount of damage. I.e. 2x1 CP Envenom should equal 1x2 CP Envenom, and vice versa. But because they cost energy, and there's a way to get that energy back, you're forced to use 5-point finishers, to guarantee that Ruthlessness proc.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    I read the concept of "build and unleash immense power" whaaat? A 120k evis is immense power? The concept of build and unleash fits destro lock, doesn't fit rogue at all atm, a destro lock popping dark soul with trinket procs can fire 4 chaos bolts in a row for monumental amounts of dmg, evis and envenom are just weak like all other rogue's yellow attacks...
    What's funnier is that quote comes from a time when a crit envenom or eviscerate barely hit harder than a crit combo builder. Rogues haven't "unleashed the power" since vanilla when eviscerate crits could be someone's health pool.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 09:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Those are a lot of posts to quote and respond to. I think this topic has been stretched out quite a bit already so I'm not going to quote everyone.

    I think Envenom was great when it was released in TBC (if I'm not mistaken, I didn't play in TBC so forgive me if I make any mistakes). What it did in TBC was consume all your Deadly Poison stacks, and then deal instant poison damage compared to what your Deadly Poison dot would have done if it ticked it's full duration, and then increases your chance to apply Deadly Poison again. So as an Assassination Rogue you were constantly building up your Deadly Poison, instantly doing all the poison damage and then get a boost to build them back up again. Over the years this concept got changed, altered, improved and now it's simply a weird concept that doesn't make much sense. It's just an Eviscerate that deals nature damage and gives you a higher chance to apply more nature damage. It's weird, and the whole concept and idea behind the ability is now lost.

    I'm not sure what you mean with the Warrior examples though, I'd say all Warrior abilities make perfect sense and fit their theme really well. Even Dragon Roar makes perfect sense, Warriors or mainly Fury Warriors have always had abilities related to shouting. Dragon Roar is merely a large deafening shout. But anyway off topic.

    Everything aside, I will continue to whine and complain about not getting a poison smoke bomb for as long as I play this game.

    It was great in theory. In reality you used eviscerate because the damage generated didn't match the damage lost by losing your poison stacks.

    A lot of rogue abilities were awesome in theory and made sense thematically but didn't work with numbers in reality -

    Ghost strike
    Hemo
    Backstab when all rogue specs used it
    Smoke bomb
    Riposte
    Whatever that ability that gave you a free attack when you dodged - can't remember the name anymore
    Prey on the Weak (old version)

    The problem with the current design team is they worry so much about making the numbers work (balancing pve dps) that they've completely killed the flavor of the rogue class. If they want to do something for the class they need to make the specs feel different again. They also need to reduce the number of classes with certain tools so that each class feels unique again. Everyone having all the same tools (silences, stuns, interrupts, etc) means that toolkits become minor to the equation and that certain classes will always end up being better because they'll have the same tools but be more mobile, or more bursty, etc. When only 2 classes have stuns, you can adjust other aspects of their play around the fact they are the only classes with a stun. When everyone has a stun, then you have to make everyone balanced in all aspects and that kills thematic flavor and uniqueness of playability.

    The current design team are accountants and not artists - they worry about numbers at the expense of vision and creativity.

  13. #53
    Unfair advantage, that's how that was called, i just took a look at wotlk rogue talents and i want to cry right now
    Last edited by D3athsting; 2013-01-14 at 10:58 PM.

  14. #54
    Unfair Advantage was absolutely amazing. I remember aggroing lowbie mobs and facing them and mowing them down from my mount.

    Riposte was one of my favorite strikes, as was ghostly. I really liked choosing the correct strike for the correct moment. But once they made DKs, they decided that was THEIR "kit" for some reason, so they just took away all our stuff. Ludicrous.


    In fairness, I really hate relentless strikes. Obviously, I always took it because it's always been way too good, but I like the moves costing energy and combo points. I maintain that if they took relentless away the finishers could hit even harder.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    What is a Sub rogue?
    What is a Combat rogue?
    What is an Assassination rogue?
    The way I like to think of it based on their names and what those names bring to mind is something more like this.

    Subtlety, it's all about being sneaky. Your attacks aren't huge, they aren't flashy... because well you're trying to be subtle about this right? This means stealth, bleeds and poison. Lower damage per ability with a high attack speed, lots of dots and small melee hits happening. Lower ability costs.

    Combat, going toe to toe with other people in melee. Good sustained damage and does most of its work with physical damage, bleeds also make sense here. Moderate damage per ability and attack speed. Moderate ability costs.

    Assassination, you're going for the kill here. This is all about killing your target before they even realize you were there. Bursts of damage is where its at with this type of rogue, you're going to want to be avoiding the enemies armor, striking at exposed points to deal some serious damage. Poisons make more sense then bleeds for this spec. High damage per ability and lower attack speed. High ability costs.

    On a side note, I always thought that Subtlety needed some kind of proc mechanic that allowed use of stealth abilities while nonstealthed. None of this Shadow Dance using the stealth bar stuff, whenever X happens you can use a stealth only move like Ambush. Replace Subtlety's Mastery with this kind of effect, say like X% chance on crit/bleed tick to activate.
    Last edited by Najja; 2013-01-15 at 02:26 AM.

  16. #56
    only shows how much of a patchwork mess our class is right now.

    Its a mumbo jumbo of %s here and some %s there and in the end everyone is unhappy.

    We need serious rework. 6.0 please come fast.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Those are a lot of posts to quote and respond to. I think this topic has been stretched out quite a bit already so I'm not going to quote everyone.

    I think Envenom was great when it was released in TBC (if I'm not mistaken, I didn't play in TBC so forgive me if I make any mistakes). What it did in TBC was consume all your Deadly Poison stacks, and then deal instant poison damage compared to what your Deadly Poison dot would have done if it ticked it's full duration, and then increases your chance to apply Deadly Poison again. So as an Assassination Rogue you were constantly building up your Deadly Poison, instantly doing all the poison damage and then get a boost to build them back up again. Over the years this concept got changed, altered, improved and now it's simply a weird concept that doesn't make much sense. It's just an Eviscerate that deals nature damage and gives you a higher chance to apply more nature damage. It's weird, and the whole concept and idea behind the ability is now lost.

    I'm not sure what you mean with the Warrior examples though, I'd say all Warrior abilities make perfect sense and fit their theme really well. Even Dragon Roar makes perfect sense, Warriors or mainly Fury Warriors have always had abilities related to shouting. Dragon Roar is merely a large deafening shout. But anyway off topic.

    Everything aside, I will continue to whine and complain about not getting a poison smoke bomb for as long as I play this game.
    Envenom was always a nature Eviscerate. It did consume your DP stacks (equal to the amount of CP you used it with IIRC, not 100% sure on this because frankly, no one in their right mind used the abiltiy in TBC), but the damage wasn't based on how much tick damage was left and was completely irrelevant to your actual DP damage. Only the amount of stacks had an impact. It was a set amount of damage per CP/DP stack just like Eviscerate pretty much. It also didn't improve your poison application chance until WotLK.

  18. #58
    Yea, basically envenom had 15 ways it could be applied. The most damaging was 5 combo points with 5 stacks. If you did 4 combo points with 5 stacks, that was the same with 4 combo points with 4 stacks (and substracted 4 of each). But it wasn't clearly correct until much later. The stack subtracting part was kind of interesting but it kind of made the spec a mess.

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