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  1. #1
    Banned GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Are the Unemployment Numbers Actually a Result of Technology and Efficiency?

    I keep this vague so we can have a broader discussion

    Think about it. A lot of service jobs are being done online now. Banking is as easy as point and click. Need to travel, go online. Customer service? its automated and you can even send emails to them. Need mail... email! You can even order pizza online. Heck interns can do the same work for that government office as any paid person.

    Another food for thought. When companies had to fire people... they realized in a sense they did not need all of those people. why use 4 people when 3 is enough.

    Another food for thought. There are plenty of jobs, but they require tons of education and training. They are in the engineer, tech, and medical fields (as some examples)

    discuss

  2. #2
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    I definitely think it has contributed, but by a large margin? Nah. There are still industries which use mainly manpower, and small businesses won't be able to afford robots for quite some time. Most of the unemployment just comes from that businesses can't afford loads of manpower, and while it might be enough to keep the company going it probably isn't going to be the way to maximize profits.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk Slummish's Avatar
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    Prepare yourself. As we become more modernized, we need fewer blue collar workers. Eventually, we won't need any. Even the car mechanics will need to be trained engineers to perform job functions machines cannot.

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    Banned GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    I definitely think it has contributed, but by a large margin? Nah. There are still industries which use mainly manpower, and small businesses won't be able to afford robots for quite some time. Most of the unemployment just comes from that businesses can't afford loads of manpower, and while it might be enough to keep the company going it probably isn't going to be the way to maximize profits.
    depends on the small business. technology in general can make it so they dont have to hire that many people

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    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    I pretty much agree with you, we truly could just have 90% of the population working to provide for everyone.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  6. #6
    The latest report from the left claims its the flu thats hindering our economy.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/econ...ther-1B7928002

    Eventually they will run out of things to blame and take accountability for doing a shitty job.

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    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Partly, sure. But Technology and Efficiency are also part of the Employment numbers. A huge part.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  8. #8
    More the result of globalization, and our high min wage.

    When countries like China and India can pay over 75% less to make the same item, it becomes more econmicaly to send manufacturing there.

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    Banned GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    The latest report from the left claims its the flu thats hindering our economy.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/econ...ther-1B7928002

    Eventually they will run out of things to blame and take accountability for doing a shitty job.
    who woulda guessed the normal flu would be so problematic

  10. #10
    It's a combination of things as most things are, technology for certain plays a roll, but I also think the growing wealth of the upper class while the middle class diminishes plays a part in it. A good healthy economy depends on a strong middle class buying things, which creates jobs, which creates a larger middle class which buys even more things, and so on. With a shrinking middle class buying less stuff because of less disposable income we see the falloff of the job market and wonder what happened.

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    Banned GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galluk View Post
    More the result of globalization, and our high min wage.

    When countries like China and India can pay over 75% less to make the same item, it becomes more econmicaly to send manufacturing there.
    the problem is not just manufacturing. in actuality we are actually getting some jobs back. china by leaps and bounds wants to focus more on electronics and other exports of the sort, which require a bit more training.

    the issue is also prevalent in service and retail. hell you can shop almost 100 online.

  12. #12
    It's called progress and "lean."

    The longer a process exists, the better we get at it and are therefore able to increase the yields from that process with less work and therefore less people. Better technology allows for things to happen faster and necessitate higher education/ smarter/ faster people who can do more than just one task at a time and therefore lowers the number of people required to complete the process. aka Improvement

    The issue that can come up though in this type of world where all you do is lean out your process and improve efficiency is that no progress is made in creating newer, better, faster, completely different processes because all you're doing is making the existing one better. aka Innovation

    Improvement and Innovation should exist side by side in a perfect world or company, the problem is that many of the companies are focusing on only one of them.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    the problem is not just manufacturing. in actuality we are actually getting some jobs back. china by leaps and bounds wants to focus more on electronics and other exports of the sort, which require a bit more training.

    the issue is also prevalent in service and retail. hell you can shop almost 100 online.
    12% of the UK economy is manufacturing.

    That's nothing.

    Most of America's manufacturing industry was exported to China as well resulting in an estimated job loss of 8 million jobs in those jobs alone.

    So yes, outsourcing and countries no longer being self-sufficient has caused a lot of unemployment. Only people paid to say otherwise or who are blinded by ideology will refuse to see that.

    Conservatives = "Lol, Learn to play adapt".

    Left wingers = "We are all one big happy family and China deserves our jobs because they were so poor for so long".

    So efficiency is to blame for a lot of unemployment no doubt.

    The U.S. and UK are mostly service sector economies now.
    Last edited by mmoc614a3ed308; 2013-01-11 at 08:42 PM.

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    Banned GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    12% of the UK economy is manufacturing.

    That's nothing.

    Most of America's manufacturing industry was exported to China as well resulting in an estimated job loss of 8 million jobs in those jobs alone.

    So yes, outsourcing and countries no longer being self-sufficient has caused a lot of unemployment. Only people paid to say otherwise or who are blinded by ideology will refuse to see that.

    Conservatives = "Lol, Learn to play adapt".

    Left wingers = "We are all one big happy family and China deserves our jobs because they were so poor for so long".

    So efficiency is to blame for a lot of unemployment no doubt.

    The U.S. and UK are mostly service sector economies now.

    i am well aware of this

    thats why it was not an example in the OP.

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    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    The latest report from the left claims its the flu thats hindering our economy.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/econ...ther-1B7928002

    Eventually they will run out of things to blame and take accountability for doing a shitty job.
    From the left? Do you just spew rhetoric? This is one of the worst outbreaks of the flu in two decades. 7.3% of the nation has/is been sick this winter, of course that affect productivity and hence the fucking GDP. Stop talking, start reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  16. #16
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    12% of the UK economy is manufacturing.

    That's nothing.

    Most of America's manufacturing industry was exported to China as well resulting in an estimated job loss of 8 million jobs in those jobs alone.

    So yes, outsourcing and countries no longer being self-sufficient has caused a lot of unemployment. Only people paid to say otherwise or who are blinded by ideology will refuse to see that.

    Conservatives = "Lol, Learn to play adapt".

    Left wingers = "We are all one big happy family and China deserves our jobs because they were so poor for so long".

    So efficiency is to blame for a lot of unemployment no doubt.

    The U.S. and UK are mostly service sector economies now.
    We didn't export most of our manufacturing to China. We exported SOME of our manufacturing to China. We're still massive manufacturing producers. Last I checked was a few months ago, but we were still the largest manufacturer in the world:



    What we HAVE done is we've increased efficiency so we don't need as many people to manufacture the same amount of stuff:

    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  17. #17
    It was not that many years ago that the USA was almost at full employment (about 4% which is about as low as you want to go for a healthy economy with normal employment churn). Technology has not improved THAT much since 2007.

    Technology and productivity gains does affect employment levels for particular jobs and industries, but overall it's offshoring of jobs, the destruction of the middle class, and heavy private debt that is causing jobs to recover so slowly.

  18. #18
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    It was not that many years ago that the USA was almost at full employment (about 4% which is about as low as you want to go for a healthy economy with normal employment churn). Technology has not improved THAT much since 2007.

    Technology and productivity gains does affect employment levels for particular jobs and industries, but overall it's offshoring of jobs, the destruction of the middle class, and heavy private debt that is causing jobs to recover so slowly.
    No, but with the 2008 recession, a lot of companies trimmed back employee counts more, increased automation, and improved process efficiency greatly in order to be able to hold less staff.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  19. #19
    Know what makes flu outbreaks worse? Stupid, shortsighted laws like Wisconsin passed that got rid of paid sick leave, which simply encourages people to go to work sick and spread the flu around further.

  20. #20
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    The biggest thing hindering employment is corporate behaviour. Rather than hire two people to work 30 hour weeks, they hire one person to work a 60 hour week. Yes, hiring two people WOULD cost them more money, but these companies are typically showing strong profits as well, and record-setting bonuses and compensation for their CEOs and such.

    This is especially prevalent in salaried positions; lower-level jobs are more often hourly, and it makes much less of a cost difference to split shifts, which is why you more often see salaried positions working 60+ hour workweeks than hourly jobs, where they'd have to pay overtime. However, this results in fewer new openings in those positions, leaving for fewer promotions from the aforementioned lower-level jobs. Rather than add one new manager, just give your two managers extra work for no extra pay.

    Combine this with offshoring of those same hourly positions wherever possible, and that's why unemployment is rising. Corporations are doing everything they can to reduce their hiring, to maximize short-term gains for CEOs and shareholders at the expense of their employees. Who don't have much in the way of options, because again, everyone is doing this right now, meaning there aren't any jobs to leave for.

    If anything, we need an overhaul of some labor regulations, mandating a maximum workweek in hours for even salaried positions. Allow for some exceptions for "crunch times"; say the cap is at 50 hours a week, if a project is struggling and needs all hands on deck for 3-4 weeks, that's fine. So long as that's limited per year to so many weeks; again, let's say 4 weeks maximum, to prevent companies simply shuffling people from one "crunch" to another.

    If you're regularly requiring 60-70+ hour workweeks, hire more staff.

    If corporations are offshoring manufacturing or service positions, establish punitive tariffs and fees to ensure it's just cheaper to manufacture in the US, rather than get cheap labor for pennies on the dollar.

    It doesn't matter if the corporations make less money; as long as there's still a profit, they will continue to do business in the US (or whatever country we're talking).


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