The discussion started in the PVP forums as an offtopic, but I think it should be brought here since it's more relevant.
Cut to the chase: I think in 5.2 night elves will be the best rogue race for Subtlety due to the new talent Cloak and Dagger
I tried it on the PTR and it worked like a charm - you can meld and execute a random opener to an enemy in 30 yards and there's nothing they can do about it. Doesn't matter if you're rooted either. On top you refresh Find weakness.
I think cloak and dagger is currently over the prep spot, and previously hit and run was.
I think cloak and dagger will be wildly OP because it creates unpeelable dance.
Greg, note that night elf already has everything but Cloak and Dagger, and is substantially behind human (and undead, always the real top pick). We can currently fire a full price opener, and any nelf rogue should have macroes to do just that (as meld can break instantly, the macro mostly guarantees you don't waste the cooldown).
Cloak and Dagger may push night elf ahead. It's actually on the list of things that I'm worried about with that move. Unlike hit and run, which was niche but awesome, cloak and dagger is just a giant amount of power, and isn't exciting except for that- and this means that a sub rogue will have:
Shadow Dance as an unpeelable cooldown once a minute.
Vanish as a teleport once every two minutes.
And night elves will have another every two minutes.
This makes me worried that they will first nerf night elves, taking us back to the days where our racial is useless entirely, and removing a good bit of joy I get out of running as sub in pve and pvp. Then, once they dust that off their hands, they'll probably nerf cloak and dagger. Net effect for me: painful nerfs that never get reverted even after their reasoning is gone.
That being said, if cloak and dagger goes live rogues will be rather amazing when they have a vanish cooldown available.
I'm also concerned it makes sub mandatory- much more so than night elf.
---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 07:50 PM ----------
Oh and night elf is already the best sub race. The issue is that undead is the top pvp race, and human the top ally pvp race. But a night elf rogue specced sub has more tricks than a non-nelf specced sub, just as every other race tops nelf in the other two specs.
People overestimate how good cloak and dagger is. Atleast for any kind of high rating. In 1v1 step will be better, in 3s and rbg step will be better. In 2s cloak and dagger may be better if games are short. Imagine when both vanishes are gone and you get a few teleporst during your dance. What if they stun your dance? Step is perfect to set up a perfect shadowdance.
I can see subterfuge and cloak and dagger work nicely together. Teleport back and forth with target and focus target. Teleport focus garrote, teleport focus cheap shot off that. Shadowstep is really nice aswell though. I feel like there is a choice now.
Last edited by Imbashiethz; 2013-01-11 at 08:00 PM.
If your enemies need to pool their stuns for your dance, that's pretty amazing right there.
Obviously C+D will be less useful when dance / vanish / vanish is down, but honestly it will be that much more pressure during those abilities. Warrior intervenes away from dance? Just keep running your rotation. Mage blinks? Same thing. Just seems very strong during a burn cycle, less a gap closer than just a face-punch ability. And I really think it's strange for it to work with dance anway- two of three specs don't have dance and will probably never take this talent.
I think the answer will have to wait until this plays out. I mean his argument is based on the assumption that C and D will be taken over shs which does seem somewhat questionable imo. If it turns out after a couple weeks into the next season that shs is still king of that tier, his argument falls apart.