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  1. #61
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    This is how cannon works in all multi-genre fantasy worlds.

    Primary Canon - The main source ie current version of WOW
    Secondary Canon - Old versions of Primary Source, previous versions of WOW (ie Cata, Wrath, BC, Vanilla)
    Old sources - WarCraft games (first to last expansion)
    Literary Sources - Novels, RPG books, Comic Books

    The way it works is the source is valid until the Primary Canon source changes or contradicts it. Since the Alliance High Elves Have very little class lore since WC3 the and the most recent sources are the literary sources it is safe to continue to reference them until the time Blizzard makes a change. In fact I remember playing WC2 and wondering what an elven druid was.

    The High Elf warlocks in Dalaran is are an Undead High Elf Darahir
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=29537/darahir

    And the Alliance Trainer Summoner Nolric
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Summoner_Nolric

    I know this as I play warlocks.
    Whilst I mostly agree on the hierarchy you present (I's put the tie-in novels and the warcraft encyclopedia higher because they are newer and made as suplements to the in-game world); i just make the point that the RPG's are the only lore source that has been specifically disowned and thusly, I wouldn't safely assume anything based on them, I merely refer to them when the knowledge they offer is complementary.

    Still, there are high elf necromancers in game as it is, (Inspector Malicia) and several warlocks in different cults around the world. Now, how does this relate to a possible playable faction, It's just about the parameters said faction is granted.

    Eeven if I contest the notion of necromancers being accepted into factions (as they are shunned my most races), I see this argumentation in favor or against as superfluous since we have more poignant evidence with the high elf warlocks in game, sanctioned by the biggest high elf organization, the Silver Covenant (the faction that hypothetically has the highest possibility of becoming playable). Warlocks are like one step away from being demon hunters as it is. Demon Hunters and Warlocks are about self sacrifice, and I don't think that any race, except one particularly pious or religious, would be totally against them. High elves are neither of those things.

    Of Note; the "high elven druids" was changed to "high elven magi" in the encyclopedia; a much newer and supplementary current lore source for the game. So any ideas of druidism in high elven culture are speculative at least (still I personally believe that rangers used some very limited druidic magics on their line of work, but very minimal and overall negligible. I love Dark Rangers, and whilst I love the idea that they corrupted their druidics powers to call in the shadows, since the RPG's are non-canon, I can only see it as speculation )
    Last edited by TheDangerZone; 2013-01-12 at 08:32 PM.

  2. #62
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Whilst I mostly agree on the hierarchy you present (I's put the tie-in novels and the warcraft encyclopedia higher because they are newer and made as suplements to the in-game world); i just make the point that the RPG's are the only lore source that has been specifically disowned and thusly, I wouldn't safely assume anything based on them, I merely refer to them when the knowledge they offer is complementary.

    Still, there are high elf necromancers in game as it is, (Inspector Malicia) and several warlocks in different cults around the world. Now, how does this relate to a possible playable faction, It's just about the parameters said faction is granted.

    Eeven if I contest the notion of necromancers being accepted into factions (as they are shunned my most races), I see this argumentation in favor or against as superfluous since we have more poignant evidence with the high elf warlocks in game, sanctioned by the biggest high elf organization, the Silver Covenant (the faction that hypothetically has the highest possibility of becoming playable). Warlocks are like one step away from being demon hunters as it is. Demon Hunters and Warlocks are about self sacrifice, and I don't think that any race, except one particularly pious or religious, would be totally against them. High elves are neither of those things.
    I agree with you, and yes Blizzard has 'disavowed' the RPG books, but they do use stuff that was written in it when they feel it is useful. But then Blizzard has contradicted their own games with each expansion. So I take all lore with a grain of salt.

    High Elves (Alliance and Horde) are almost as Atheist as the Gnomes, who still find it silly to pray to a Deity if you don't see them.

    The three Races most apposed to using demonic energy are Night Elves, Draenei, and Tauren, Pandaren are also apposed to Demon Magic but I don't think they appose it to the degree that the other three do.

  3. #63
    Mechagnome Sony's Avatar
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    My vote goes for, Blood Elf and N-Elf only.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    The High Elf warlocks in Dalaran is are an Undead High Elf Darahir
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=29537/darahir

    And the Alliance Trainer Summoner Nolric
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Summoner_Nolric
    Those are two perfect examples that show that Blizzard has not the slightest interest in some areas of the lore of their games.

    Obviously, no authentic High Elf could be either Warlock nor Necromancer: their strict moral standards would prevent it. Blood elves however have no such "limitations".


  5. #65
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Those are two perfect examples that show that Blizzard has not the slightest interest in some areas of the lore of their games.

    Obviously, no authentic High Elf could be either Warlock nor Necromancer: their strict moral standards would prevent it. Blood elves however have no such "limitations".
    Please stop derailing the thread with your misinformation; your argumentation has no evidence supporting it. Your view of high elves are fannish at worst, biased by other sources at best.

    I really appreciate your devotion for the race, but we are trying to generate speculation based in facts, not in our own preconceived beliefs and personal taste.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 09:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    I agree with you, and yes Blizzard has 'disavowed' the RPG books, but they do use stuff that was written in it when they feel it is useful. But then Blizzard has contradicted their own games with each expansion. So I take all lore with a grain of salt.

    High Elves (Alliance and Horde) are almost as Atheist as the Gnomes, who still find it silly to pray to a Deity if you don't see them.

    The three Races most apposed to using demonic energy are Night Elves, Draenei, and Tauren, Pandaren are also apposed to Demon Magic but I don't think they appose it to the degree that the other three do.
    Indeed, they even have stated that they can take ideas from the RPG's from time to time. Personally, I only refer to them in absolute absence of any other lore source; and even if I love some ideas on them, I can't use them if they contradict newer and more poignant sources.

    Yes! You are absolutely correct on the gnome/high elf religious beliefs. (I'd throw goblins in there as well). I think that they understand the light as a magic that can be used as any other and that it comes from a higher, kinder power, but pretty much it. High Elven ethics are more based in pride and common sense than blind obedience.

  6. #66
    High Overlord Rockwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Please stop derailing the thread with your misinformation; your argumentation has no evidence supporting it. Your view of high elves are fannish at worst, biased by other sources at best.

    I really appreciate your devotion for the race, but we are trying to generate speculation based in facts, not in our own preconceived beliefs and personal taste.
    For once I actually agree with the unicorn guy.....I know weird right.
    But we are all making fan-fict assumptions in this thread. High elves are basically Tolkien Elves.
    So would you or do you see any elf warlocks or necromancers in the Tolkien universe ?
    No you don't. They have high moral standards that prohibit that.
    Blood elves are more like dark elves than High elves in fantasy archetypes
    and most dark elves in other universes like Elder scrolls or Rift just call them dark elves.

    High elves are priests, rangers(hunters), and Frost mages

    High elf warriors are just rangers who took out their swords.

    So high elves are Tolkien elves in WoW.
    Tolkien elves would NEVER use demon energy/magic
    to make themselves stronger.
    Thus High elves would not be demon hunters

  7. #67
    Brewmaster Caninese's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Rockwood;19795665]So if high elves are a playable race they would not be:
    Warlocks, Demon hunters, Rogues, or Death knights
    according to lore high elves abhorred the practices of
    all these classes.[/QUOTE

    In regards to Death Knights, not every Death Knight has the choice of becoming what they are. High Elven rogues work with the farstriders. Warlocks, make sense, Demon Hunter can go either way, though.

  8. #68
    I didn't expect to actually spark this much debate about it! Was interesting though I've read every post. Personally I've been wanting to play a demon hunter in WoW for years. Blood elves have also been favorite character due to their architecture and fighting animations. I play alliance now though. If they added the high elf and DH to the game it would be like a match made in heaven for me, assuming it was actually a race/class combo.

  9. #69
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwood View Post
    For once I actually agree with the unicorn guy.....I know weird right.
    But we are all making fan-fict assumptions in this thread. High elves are basically Tolkien Elves.
    So would you or do you see any elf warlocks or necromancers in the Tolkien universe ?
    No you don't. They have high moral standards that prohibit that.
    Blood elves are more like dark elves than High elves in fantasy archetypes
    and most dark elves in other universes like Elder scrolls or Rift just call them dark elves.

    High elves are priests, rangers(hunters), and Frost mages

    High elf warriors are just rangers who took out their swords.

    So high elves are Tolkien elves in WoW.
    Tolkien elves would NEVER use demon energy/magic
    to make themselves stronger.
    Thus High elves would not be demon hunters
    Wait what??

    Since when are high elves basically tolkien elves?? I can't deal with this nonsense.

    If you start basing your premises on sources alien to the world we are dealing with, don't even bother. I will not even start arguing how freaking far removed are high elves from tolkien elves. Like, seriously; you are going to give me an aneurysm, and not a funny one.

    Please guys, let's base our speculations to the lore provided in THIS UNIVERSE.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Nelves are not "flip-floppers", it was a calculated compromise to bloster their forces. They have worked several years now with races that use the arcane without flipping their shit, maybe their understand that it can be used relatively safely (not that it matters, everybody knows that the legion has it's eyes on azeroth). Do not mistake strategy with loose morals.

    high elves have none of the prejudice for the arcane night elves have, in fact, they glorify it. High elves already have warlocks, why would they be more against demon hunters than night elves? It doesn't make any sense.
    Its a flip flop. It doesnt matter why they did it. They hated and shunned the Highborne and then they changed their minds and brought them back. Morality has nothing to do with it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 10:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sony View Post
    My vote goes for, Blood Elf and N-Elf only.
    I would say any race that can be a warlock except Humans. There are already too many humans.

  11. #71
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    Its a flip flop. It doesnt matter why they did it. They hated and shunned the Highborne and then they changed their minds and brought them back. Morality has nothing to do with it.
    As long as we see it as a term without a judgement of value, I could agree. But the first person to use the term did so in a morally loaded, judging manner.

  12. #72
    High Overlord Rockwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Wait what??

    Since when are high elves basically tolkien elves?? I can't deal with this nonsense.

    If you start basing your premises on sources alien to the world we are dealing with, don't even bother. I will not even start arguing how freaking far removed are high elves from tolkien elves. Like, seriously; you are going to give me an aneurysm, and not a funny one.

    Please guys, let's base our speculations to the lore provided in THIS UNIVERSE.
    You do understand that all current fantasy books, games, movies come from Tolkien and his books right ?
    Tolkien is the father of modern fantasy. WoW lore is based on influences from Tolkien and stories drawn from
    different mythologies. To make assumptions on WoW lore you have to understand where it comes from.
    High elves did not come from a vacuum. Blizzard did not just make high elves up when they started making
    warcraft games.

    How about we please you LOGIC and INTELLIGENCE when debating.

    If you read The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings novels, you find high elves before the third war
    are very similar to Tolkien elves because they are derived from Tolkien elves.

    Because of the high standard of honor and dignity of the High elves they would never go
    so low as to use demon energy/magic for anything including to fight their enemies. They
    would never sink to their enemies' level.

  13. #73
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwood View Post
    You do understand that all current fantasy books, games, movies come from Tolkien and his books right ?
    Tolkien is the father of modern fantasy. WoW lore is based on influences from Tolkien and stories drawn from
    different mythologies. To make assumptions on WoW lore you have to understand where it comes from.
    High elves did not come from a vacuum. Blizzard did not just make high elves up when they started making
    warcraft games.

    How about we please you LOGIC and INTELLIGENCE when debating.

    If you read The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings novels, you find high elves before the third war
    are very similar to Tolkien elves because they are derived from Tolkien elves.

    Because of the high standard of honor and dignity of the High elves they would never go
    so low as to use demon energy/magic for anything including to fight their enemies. They
    would never sink to their enemies' level.
    If we were going by your logic; then orcs would just be savage beasts with little intelligence.

    Of course WoW is a derivative work from Tolkien's books, and it was much similar on the earlier RST's, but the lore has evolved considerably and even if Warcraft still have to pay its respects to J.R.R., the lore has differentiated and expanded enough to leave any crutches behind. Tolkien's works served as inspiration and building blocks of the warcraft world, but Warcraft lore is now rich and unique enough to stop referring to Tolkien. And, personally, I believe that this posture you are presenting is a disrespect to the lore of Warcraft at this point.

    This means that you can't override wow lore with tolkien lore, you can't interpret wow high elves under tolkien's rules.

    I repeat. Even if they are based on tolkien's elves They are not tokien's elves, similarities go only so far wow's lore allow them, and in no way they should be used as complementary lore, that is just wrong.

    This just adds to the continuous list of fallacious arguments you have used.

  14. #74
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwood View Post
    For once I actually agree with the unicorn guy.....I know weird right.
    But we are all making fan-fict assumptions in this thread. High elves are basically Tolkien Elves.
    So would you or do you see any elf warlocks or necromancers in the Tolkien universe ?
    No you don't. They have high moral standards that prohibit that.
    Blood elves are more like dark elves than High elves in fantasy archetypes
    and most dark elves in other universes like Elder scrolls or Rift just call them dark elves.

    High elves are priests, rangers(hunters), and Frost mages

    High elf warriors are just rangers who took out their swords.

    So high elves are Tolkien elves in WoW.
    Tolkien elves would NEVER use demon energy/magic
    to make themselves stronger.
    Thus High elves would not be demon hunters
    WOW is only loosely based on Tolken, I would hazard to say maybe one person on the dev team has read more than the Hobbit. The version of elves we have in WOW is closer to Michael Moorcock's writings than any thing Tolken ever wrote.


    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Those are two perfect examples that show that Blizzard has not the slightest interest in some areas of the lore of their games.

    Obviously, no authentic High Elf could be either Warlock nor Necromancer: their strict moral standards would prevent it. Blood elves however have no such "limitations".

    Which lore are you talking about? Because the High Elves (both Alliance and Horde blood elf is not actually a race but a political expression it's like saying Republicans and Democrats), Have always studied magic and the arcane arts which include Necromancy and Fel Magic. Who do you think taught Medivh how to summon demons and undead? How did he learn to open a Dark Portal? sure he heard whispers but the practical knowledge was obtained from High Elves.

    The way you are talking I think you are referring to Night Elf Lore, they are the ones with the strict moral code. High Elves are sort of like humans only thinner with more magic.

  15. #75
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    Those are two perfect examples that show that Blizzard has not the slightest interest in some areas of the lore of their games.

    Obviously, no authentic High Elf could be either Warlock nor Necromancer: their strict moral standards would prevent it. Blood elves however have no such "limitations".
    Wow, No True Scotsman-ing the guys who make the story. That is impressive
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  16. #76
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwood View Post
    If demon hunters became a class, then you could play
    Ally - Human, dwarf, gnome, worgen, and Night elf of course.
    (side note: Night elf demon hunters would be accepted like Orc warlocks ie Not very well lore wise)
    Horde: Every horde race but Tauren (Orc, Troll, Forsaken, Belf, & Goblins)

    Pandas would not be demon hunters either.
    Also known as every class that can play as a Warlock (save Night Elves).

    HM I WONDER WHAT THIS COULD MEAN .....

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