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  1. #621
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    I think people just want to sound super cool by saying they knew what was going to happen before it did. Instead of actually getting involved in the game, they probably started dissecting and criticizing the story every segment of the way. I love how most of the arguments are just yelling into the wind how everything is spoon fed, but giving no actual literary theory as to why they have their opinion.

    As someone who has actual experience in narrative construction, there's nothing out of the ordinary for this game. Is it revolutionary? Hardly. Is it even surprising? Maybe to a lot of people. Does it matter? No.

    This game wasn't hinged on there being an unsolvable 'whodunit' in the middle of you smashing demon faces. Your character and Tyreal can't see what is happening because they are too focused on what is ahead. It's a classic thematic element in many narratives. Most video game and cinematic writing is going to follow traditional methods of story telling because it is easily relatable and digested. You are fine to dislike that or think the quality is off, but it doesn't change that it accomplishes what it is supposed to do. In the end, that's a huge element to good writing.

    Sorry to continue the OT, but the last 5 pages have been so ridiculous this thread should have been disintegrated.
    BAD WOLF

  2. #622
    but it doesn't change that it accomplishes what it is supposed to do.
    i'm confused by what you mean by this.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    The point about it being equally obvious that Leah is possessed by Diablo and that the Dark Wanderer was possessed by Diablo is a good example. In D2, you arrive at the rogue camp knowing that some dude they're calling the Dark Wanderer has demon trouble following him so you start trailing this Dark Wanderer. Pretty soon you'll figure out that it's Diablo but it doesn't matter, once you know it's Diablo the logical thing is to keep doing what you're doing, following his trail. The story is written so that it doesn't matter whether you realize the Dark Wanderer is Diablo, your actions will still make perfect sense.

    In D3, you figure out pretty soon that Leah is possessed by Diablo but then you're forced to follow this spoon-fed plot where your character still doesn't realize it and goes along with working for the obvious traitor. Once you know that Leah is possessed by Diablo, none of the plot makes any sense anymore. Why would you go along with the plan once you realize where it's leading? The story is written so that you have to pretend that your character and Tyrael are too stupid to realize what you yourself realize since the plan makes zero sense once you realize Diablo is in Leah.
    Well described what differs the two and why one feels better than the other.
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  4. #624
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeic View Post
    i'm confused by what you mean by this.
    It frames the reason why you are going to certain areas and killing everything there. It gives you a purpose, an objective. Whether you have figured it out, the story unfolds as a progression of events. You play through those events.

    It's not designed to make you have a personal revelation or incredulous shocked reaction. This isn't an M Night Shyamalan movie. It's just a mythological story with standard thematic elements of heroism, betrayal, discovery, catharsis, etc. This game could have used an exact story from a classical Greek tragedy and people would shit on it saying it's terrible because they predicted what was going on.
    BAD WOLF

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    It's not designed to make you have a personal revelation or incredulous shocked reaction.
    It isn't? The NPC reaction and build up to the last act does make it feel like the betrayal and the emergence of Diablo is supposed to be some incredible shock and surprise twist.

    It's just a mythological story with standard thematic elements of heroism, betrayal, discovery, catharsis, etc. This game could have used an exact story from a classical Greek tragedy and people would shit on it saying it's terrible because they predicted what was going on.
    There are plenty of good stories where you know how it's going to end and plenty of terrible stories that are unpredictable. That's not what makes a good story.

    And I remember writing stories for school with heroism, betrayal and all that when I was 12 years old and I'm pretty sure I'd find all those stories afwully childlish and just badly written now. You'd probably find a betrayal story where I meant the betrayal to be really shocking but I didn't develop the characters and the relationship between them properly so my characters talking about the incredible friendship that broke will just sound super corny. Or whatever.

    Meanwhile, the most famous dramatization of a betrayal is probably Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare and that play is a lot better written than anything I ever attempted at school even though it's about one of the most recognized events in world history and everyone already knows the plot before the play even starts...

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    D2 story was a couple of paragraphs of quest text and about 6 vids that contained about 1 to 2 sentences of dialogue. Wtf are you talking about, there was barely a story to tell in that game. . . did you even play it??

    Why are you so bent out of shape over story telling? Are you booty hurt that D3 has a better story than Twilight?
    No one is going to play a hack/slash game for its story telling.

    Not if you are a normal person anyway.

    Consider the Diablo series an advanced game of Gauntlet.

    D1 and D2 had in fact no story lines as such, just some in game videos that were dramatic but were as much related to the pixeled blocky characters as PacMan to some paintings of Da Vinci.

    I laugh each time when I see something saying about the "dark" side of the pixels in D1/D2.

    How old were these guys when they played them ? 8 ?

    LOL

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    No one is going to play a hack/slash game for its story telling.

    Not if you are a normal person anyway.

    Consider the Diablo series an advanced game of Gauntlet.

    D1 and D2 had in fact no story lines as such, just some in game videos that were dramatic but were as much related to the pixeled blocky characters as PacMan to some paintings of Da Vinci.

    I laugh each time when I see something saying about the "dark" side of the pixels in D1/D2.

    How old were these guys when they played them ? 8 ?

    LOL
    A normal person can play the game for a variety of reasons, ranging from the mechanics, to the atmosphere, to the story, or some combination of the above. A normal person can also recognize story elements in a game, such as the underlying stories found in both D1 and D2, the stories that created a coherent narrative that follows a mostly traditional hero quest type structure (with a few deviations). Those in-game videos show story elements that are the driving force behind why the in-game character is doing what they are doing. They can hardly be seen as unrelated, unless you simply don't grasp basic storytelling mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    Meanwhile, the most famous dramatization of a betrayal is probably Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare and that play is a lot better written than anything I ever attempted at school even though it's about one of the most recognized events in world history and everyone already knows the plot before the play even starts...
    This hits on an important part of telling a story - presentation. A totally original story can have piss poor presentation, while a well known classic can be retold many times if the presentation is done well.

    In my opinion, the presentation of the story in D3 was off the mark, at least if you think of it as a darker, gothic (in the Edgar Allen Poe sense) tale. As a comedy? The presentation is often spot on, were that the goal. Too much "Saturday Morning Cartoon" in how many of the characters are presented, which could have been handled much better without touching the overall flow of the plot.
    Last edited by Berethos08; 2013-01-22 at 10:35 PM.

  8. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diocassius View Post
    Good things Tyrael rebrands himself as Wisdom, not Intelligence.
    That scene cracked me up. Dude crashes down from the heavens, accidently awakens thousands of undead . . . and now he's the Angel of Wisdom?

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  9. #629
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orissa View Post
    That scene cracked me up. Dude crashes down from the heavens, accidently awakens thousands of undead . . . and now he's the Angel of Wisdom?
    A mortal angel here I'll give a plot twister already IN THE NEXT EXPANSION Diablo Z Tyreal manages to regain his angelic form but a sacrifice must be made DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

    What...?

    <.<

  10. #630
    I prefer the D1/2 story line over D3. What grabbed me initially into the franchise was figuring out what's going to happen next in the story. The gameplay itself came second. I was hoping the D3 story could pull me in like the previous two, but it ended up being an empty experience. I wish blizzard could've stayed with the team that made the previous games or set up a new universe to show off their rmah and not ruin the diablo franchise.

  11. #631
    So I just sat down with some coffee and read this entire thread and here is what I have to say:

    Regardless of the behavior on both sides of the discussion, I saw quite a bit of condescension towards one another based solely on opinions (which, in the end, that's what they are, despite whether or not one side may be more correct than another).

    Fans of Diablo 3, in this thread alone, have been compared to children and downright insulted because they are fans of the game.

    I LOVE Diablo. I love the first, I love Diablo 2, and I love Diablo 3. The entire series is filled to the brim with tropes, stereotypes, and over-the-top dramatic bullshit. I can acknowledge that D3 is inferior to D2, but I still love it. I will still buy the expansions and I will buy Diablo 4. In a world where literally EVERYTHING is going to shit, taking solace in a franchise that has comforted me for a decade does not make me a child. I understand that me purchasing these games in no way helps the cause of bettering the series, but I am not altogether altruistic and I place my own pleasure over those behind a computer screen.

    In the end, what we have are two sides of an argument yelling that the other side sucks. If there is a discussion amongst people who prefer Diablo 2, don't chyme in a start throwing shit everywhere. If there is a thread discussing the merits of Diablo 3's art style or story, please don't jump in trying to enlighten the plebeian masses. Just keep liking what you like and I will do the same, ya dig?
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by CanDellJack View Post
    In the end, what we have are two sides of an argument yelling that the other side sucks. If there is a discussion amongst people who prefer Diablo 2, don't chyme in a start throwing shit everywhere. If there is a thread discussing the merits of Diablo 3's art style or story, please don't jump in trying to enlighten the plebeian masses. Just keep liking what you like and I will do the same, ya dig?
    This is not how forums work, if all we ever did was discuss what we liked and patted each other on the back for agreeing these forums would be horribly boring. If differences in opinion makes you think we shouldn't have discussions/arguments here perhaps you are the one that should stop reading.

    Having said that, the discussion could have been on a higher level at times, but that's another matter.
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  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    This is not how forums work, if all we ever did was discuss what we liked and patted each other on the back for agreeing these forums would be horribly boring. If differences in opinion makes you think we shouldn't have discussions/arguments here perhaps you are the one that should stop reading.

    Having said that, the discussion could have been on a higher level at times, but that's another matter.
    My problem lies less with the disagreement and more with how someone goes about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    No one is going to play a hack/slash game for its story telling.
    No one plays a game for the sound effects either but if they are so comically terrible that they distract from the hacking and slashing we're going to skip hacking and slashing and mock the sound effects instead.

    D1 and D2 had in fact no story lines as such, just some in game videos that were dramatic but were as much related to the pixeled blocky characters as PacMan to some paintings of Da Vinci.
    Which was a ton better. Having no real story is a lot better than having a bad story that you can't escape. This is a common theme in Blizzard products, actually. They have been good at creating game worlds, background histories and mythologies, yet their storytelling ranges from bland to absolutely terrible. That's why they're good when they just give you some monster backstories and leave most of the character's story to the player's imagination instead of trying to write it themselves in detail.

    I laugh each time when I see something saying about the "dark" side of the pixels in D1/D2.

    How old were these guys when they played them ? 8 ?
    I was 16 when Diablo I came out and it had an awesome dark atmosphere. You are obviously too young to have played Diablo I when it was new; your complaining about "pixels" betrays it. Diablo I had as detailed graphics as fairly new computers back then were able to handle and it is a classic because from those limited elements it managed to produce an experience far more memorable than its competitors back then.

    Nosferatu from 1922 is a classic vampire film. Of course today a bunch of random amateurs with webcam would easily put together a technically superior film but damn, that film must have been an experience back in the day... of course you will say it can't be dark compared to Twilight because it's got no colour or sound or computer generated effects...

    Sadly Diablo III isn't going to be a classic unless an expansion pulls a miracle. It's OK but it just doesn't stand out from other games of recent years. In 2027 those 30-year-old veteran gamers who are teenagers right now will probably still instantly recognize the Dovahkiin song and go "Fus Ro Dah!!!" for nostalgia when they meet an old gamer mate at the class reunion but... I can't even think of anything particularily memorable about D3 now!

  15. #635
    Wtf happend to this topic? Please close the thread and let the people who will be complaining about d3 for the rest of their lives go discuss this in the "pvp" thread.

    Patch is fine, game is getting better, if you spent as much time hitting 123 as u did complaining you wouldnt be bitchin about drops.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    Sadly Diablo III isn't going to be a classic unless an expansion pulls a miracle. It's OK but it just doesn't stand out from other games of recent years. In 2027 those 30-year-old veteran gamers who are teenagers right now will probably still instantly recognize the Dovahkiin song and go "Fus Ro Dah!!!" for nostalgia when they meet an old gamer mate at the class reunion but... I can't even think of anything particularily memorable about D3 now!

    Wake up Diablo 3 is ALREADY a classic. 12 million sales for a game that will be supported by the usual long term Blizzard support is a number you ALWAYS fall back to.

    D3 is just a click away on MILLIONS of desktops. Without the need of long term attunements or reputation grinds like in any MMO.

    It sits there ... waiting to be activated, just like any normal video game ... but with the usual long term Blizzard support.

    So wake up: I see public grouping games are climbing and patch 1.07 is not even launched. I sell my basic mats in seconds. I see 10.000's of chat channels openend when I log in....

    D3 is just another Blizzard game on the new massive BattleNet and with the free to play BAS it will be played for the next decade by a million on that platform.

    Just by sheer numbers this game already succeeded. Only 10% will like it and play it long term? Great : 1 to 2 million players at hand already.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2013-01-23 at 09:00 AM.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Wake up Diablo 3 is ALREADY a classic. 12 million sales for a game that will be supported by the usual long term Blizzard support is a number you ALWAYS fall back to.

    D3 is just a click away on MILLIONS of desktops. Without the need of long term attunements or reputation grinds like in any MMO.

    It sits there ... waiting to be activated, just like any normal video game ... but with the usual long term Blizzard support.

    So wake up: I see public grouping games are climbing and patch 1.07 is not even launched. I sell my basic mats in seconds. I see 10.000's of chat channels openend when I log in....

    D3 is just another Blizzard game on the new massive BattleNet and with the free to play BAS it will be played for the next decade by a million on that platform.

    Just by sheer numbers this game already succeeded. Only 10% will like it and play it long term? Great : 1 to 2 million players at hand already.
    Like you said ... just another Blizz game with good polish in some of the important areas. That does not make it a classic same way SC2 is not a classic. It's just a somewhat successful and polished sequel. And as with SC2 with D3 Blizz failed to identify some of they key features that made their predecessors successful. That's why SC2 loses in Korea to LoL and D3 may lose to whatever ARPG comes next.

    No shame in making games like these, but no glory either.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by -Apathy- View Post
    A mortal angel here I'll give a plot twister already IN THE NEXT EXPANSION Diablo Z Tyreal manages to regain his angelic form but a sacrifice must be made DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

    What...?

    <.<
    You made me laugh hope you know this. I hope to god they don't pull some shitty stunt like that.

    But really I think the next xpac will have you going after Leah's mom...because she is the only one not to die and she is a fallower of diablo and will try to res diablo again so you can guess what......fight him/her one more time this time in limbo since in D2 u was in hell and D3 in heaven.

    Fighting Diablo in Limbo WHAT A TWIST.
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  19. #639
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    You made me laugh hope you know this. I hope to god they don't pull some shitty stunt like that.

    But really I think the next xpac will have you going after Leah's mom...because she is the only one not to die and she is a fallower of diablo and will try to res diablo again so you can guess what......fight him/her one more time this time in limbo since in D2 u was in hell and D3 in heaven.

    Fighting Diablo in Limbo WHAT A TWIST.
    Inception Limbo? Like a dream in another dream of another dream?

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by -Apathy- View Post
    Inception Limbo? Like a dream in another dream of another dream?
    That or Limbo that is in the middle of heaven and hell.

    And the final phase of that fight is in the Realm of What a TWIST.
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