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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Because people correct you all over the place with CLEAR FACTS... they shouldn't be allowed to post.

    Who do you think you are ?
    You didn't even bother to read my post that clearly shows that I'm right, instead you, as usual, keep on about how right you are and that anything you say is a "fact", you provide nothing of value to the discussions.
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  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    You didn't even bother to read my post that clearly shows that I'm right, instead you, as usual, keep on about how right you are and that anything you say is a "fact", you provide nothing of value to the discussions.
    here is the part of the third poster above that puts you OUT of this discussion.

    Quote

    •We have an enormous number of skill build combinations, and we want a lot of those skill builds to be viable and interesting
    •While there are millions of skill builds available to players, we don’t want players swapping skills regularly to beat specific encounters as they come up
    We don’t want repeatedly running specific three-minute chunks of the game to be the most efficient way to acquire gear for your character
    •While a three-minute run shouldn’t be the most efficient, we also don’t want you to feel like it’s a two-hour commitment every time you sit down to play
    Bosses should still feel worth killing

    Unquote

    So you were corrected and you don't like that - as usual.

    I really don't think there is even a discussion going on about this: Blizzard wanted to avoid the short spamming of boss fights (like D2) and so invented the NV stacks to make these boss fights dropping rares and "worthwile" just a few weeks after launch.

    The fact the change in skills dropped the NV stack was a side effect to ensure bosses should still be worth killing.

    I am really starting to wonder if you are really that kind of hardcore player as you state you are, since everyone who played back at launch remembers this very well...
    Last edited by BenBos; 2013-01-28 at 02:58 PM.

  3. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Sigh, I really can't be fucked to go find all the other blue posts on the subject because you are in the mood to be a smartass...
    I'm not being a smart ass. I'm quoting an official, pre release announcement on the subject. You are normally not one to wear a tin foil hat and twist facts completely to your use, but apparently this game has made you so angry that you are starting to do that now?

    We can't fathom the depths of Blizzard's 'true' thoughts, but we do have their public communication. This is from a well known CM, is very straight forward and reiterates those same points multiple times in the post. Here's another quote, since you are trying to make facts go away:
    We expect this system will encourage players to stick with a skill build of their choice, select an area of the game they enjoy, and sweep it for rare and champion packs on their way to a boss, finishing off a run with a boss that’ll be worth killing. If you wanted a shorter play session you could be done at that point, but if you have more time, the path of least resistance would ideally be to stay in the same game and make your way towards the next boss.


    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 10:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    So you were corrected and you don't like that - as usual.
    You are wrong too as you are conveniently ignoring other parts too.

    I'm not defending you. You are doing the same thing and then pointing your finger at Alyssa. Hypocritical.
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  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I'm not being a smart ass. I'm quoting an official, pre release announcement on the subject. You are normally not one to wear a tin foil hat and twist facts completely to your use, but apparently this game has made you so angry that you are starting to do that now?

    We can't fathom the depths of Blizzard's 'true' thoughts, but we do have their public communication. This is from a well known CM, is very straight forward and reiterates those same points multiple times in the post. Here's another quote, since you are trying to make facts go away:


    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 10:11 AM ----------


    You are wrong too as you are conveniently ignoring other parts too.

    I'm not defending you. You are doing the same thing and then pointing your finger at Alyssa. Hypocritical.
    In fact I said your round up was good ... BUT the answers you found from blue posters was AFTER people complained why they lost NV stacks after respeccing.

    The NV stacks were introdcued first to make boss fights more meaningful (lasting longer and dropping yellows). Then people complained why they would loose their NV stacks when respeccing... and Blizzard explained it all.

    It was all in a matter of days that these posts were made. But the core was that Blizzard wanted more meaningful boss fights (hence a lead up to 5 NV stacks).

    THAT was the original intent of the NV stack of 5. Not to keep players from respeccing like Jesus stated (that was the side effect).

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I'm not being a smart ass. I'm quoting an official, pre release announcement on the subject. You are normally not one to wear a tin foil hat and twist facts completely to your use, but apparently this game has made you so angry that you are starting to do that now?

    We can't fathom the depths of Blizzard's 'true' thoughts, but we do have their public communication. This is from a well known CM, is very straight forward and reiterates those same points multiple times in the post. Here's another quote, since you are trying to make facts go away:
    In the same quote he says:

    Overall, we think Nephalem Valor does a great job at addressing two core needs. First, it helps make sure that extremely short play sessions (i.e. < 1 minute) are not the optimal way to play.
    Forcing people to not be able to do less than 1 minute boss runs can be achieved in so many ways, hell most of them can't be farmed in such short sessions anyway, the only exceptions I can think of is Ghom and Diablo, the rest you have to clear to get to and once you killed it the quest progresses you so you would have to dclear it all over, not to mention that the game will lock you out after a while of running such short sessions anyway.

    There are more blue quotes on the subject as it's been discussed quite a lot, hell they even asked the players what they thought about being able to skill swap at will during one of those. If memory serves me correctly Bashiok have even stated that it was it's primary function at one point.

    I'm not going to waste a lot of time digging up confirmations on things I know from following blue tracker and official forums at the time, common sense should be enough to see that NV is a creation to limit skill changes with the byproduct of making short sessions less attractive as the latter can be achieved in many ways quite easy.
    Last edited by Redblade; 2013-01-28 at 03:32 PM.
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  6. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    In fact I said your round up was good ... BUT the answers you found from blue posters was AFTER people complained why they lost NV stacks after respeccing.
    Are you effing kidding me? That post was from March 21...before the game was even released. It wasn't available for testing in beta as we only got act 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    I'm not going to waste a lot of time digging up confirmations on things I know from following blue tracker and official forums at the time, common sense should be enough to see that NV is a creation to limit skill changes with the byproduct of making short sessions less attractive as the latter can be achieved in many ways quite easy.
    It doesn't matter that things can be accomplished in other ways. That's completely irrelevant to your point. You're just arguing for no damned reason. You could also accomplish preventing skill swaps by just not letting you do it ever. What's your damned point? That you are unhappy with their decisions in the game? Oh ok. We got that 1 thousand posts ago.

    NV was implemented for both of the reasons you are arguing and neither of you can get your heads out long enough to admit it.
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  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    It doesn't matter that things can be accomplished in other ways. That's completely irrelevant to your point. You're just arguing for no damned reason.
    It matters when the argument Blizzard is making doesn't hold water within their own design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    You could also accomplish preventing skill swaps by just not letting you do it ever. What's your damned point?
    No you couldn't as it would have been the old system...

    The new system wasn't received well by a lot of D2 players as it lacked skill build permanence hence why they made NV to add some permanence as a compromise between what the oldschool players wanted and what Blizzard was making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    That you are unhappy with their decisions in the game? Oh ok. We got that 1 thousand posts ago.
    No one forced you to get involved...I answered a question based on my knowledge with no negativity or malice, then Ben came in with he's "facts".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    NV was implemented for both of the reasons you are arguing and neither of you can get your heads out long enough to admit it.
    Yet from what I read that's just not true, it's the official explanation in the announcement for sure but again I read discussions where it's been clear NV was made to add permanence to the skill system, couldn't care less if you chose to believe me or not at this point
    Last edited by Redblade; 2013-01-28 at 03:56 PM.
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  8. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Yet from what I read that's just not true, it's the official explanation in the announcement for sure but again I read discussions where it's been clear NV was made to add permanence to the skill system, couldn't care less if you chose to believe me or not at this point
    I gave you early, concise, and official proof that what I say is true. You have given conspiracy theory and the classic 'I could care less if you believe' response as evidence. Forgive me if I like to consider real information when making informed decisions. Just because some angry person said on a forum forever ago that this is only in place to prevent us from skill swapping (which makes no sense) doesn't mean that's the only reason the system was made.

    It's not like they had a meeting on how to limit people's play as much as possible, then how to spin it so that it seems they were doing a good thing. Like I said, your anger is forming a tin foil hat. While you might not agree with them telling you what is fun, and I'm not saying I do either, the specifics of skill swapping was so that you didn't do it for every new pack you faced and every boss. Once you could do that, a player feels they 'have' to do it.

    Even if that was the only reason, you're spinning it to match what you believe the game to be. In either case, the second of which isn't even true, you're still just twisting ideas to match your opinion of the game.

    Edit:

    It's funny that you both claim to have mysterious evidence that you can't care to post as to why you are both right.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-28 at 03:58 PM.
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  9. #689
    The discussion where it's being stated that NV was created as a compromise was with a blue poster, there is no conspiracy theory nor spin. That you chose to go by the literal wording in the announcement in a discussion that had nothing to do with you to begin with is just arguing to argue.

    Normally we can disagree with respect but currently you are being, to be blunt, quite a douche. What you are saying is that I'm lying to twist it in to that short play sessions wasn't the primary reason for making NV, what possible reason would I have for that, I couldn't care less why it was created, again, I only replied based on what Blizzard employees have said on the subject.

    Didn't know one would need to provide at least three individually confirmed sources to be nice and answer a question...
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  10. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    The discussion where it's being stated that NV was created as a compromise was with a blue poster, there is no conspiracy theory nor spin. That you chose to go by the literal wording in the announcement in a discussion that had nothing to do with you to begin with is just arguing to argue.

    Normally we can disagree with respect but currently you are being, to be blunt, quite a douche. What you are saying is that I'm lying to twist it in to that short play sessions wasn't the primary reason for making NV, what possible reason would I have for that, I couldn't care less why it was created, again, I only replied based on what Blizzard employees have said on the subject.

    Didn't know one would need to provide at least three individually confirmed sources to be nice and answer a question...
    You were somewhat ok with :
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    It's original purpose was to prevent on the fly skill changes, to add some form of permanence as a compromise when they removed the more permanent skill trees. It ended up being tied to everything.
    But the earliest blue post I can even locate seems to prove otherwise. If asking you for actual proof in the face of actual proof is being a douche, then so be it. I thought the same thing of you considering you aren't prone to going tin foil mode. I'm just as filled with incredulity as you are apparently.

    Sorry but these forums have become a place for people who seem to loathe the game, though they continue to play it non stop, to continuously rip it apart. Now we're going back in time to assign our own reasons for why certain decisions were made, even when they have officially stated differently?

    You can't see why I'm 'joining the conversation' on that? I don't really like to sit by why people paint broad, nonfactual strokes for any reason. I'm sure one day I'll be a victim of the same thing and someone like me and you will be there to keep trying to remind me I'm making things up or interpreting something incorrectly...I probably have already done it idk.

    Just trying to provide the completely non biased voice of reason on this particular matter.

    The moral of the story is that the design of NV clearly had multiple purposes. You can't just pick one, regardless of whether it was 'the first reason' or the 'primary' reason and say that's why, because you dislike it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but reading over everything again it sure doesn't seem like it.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-28 at 04:42 PM.
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  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    The moral of the story is that the design of NV clearly had multiple purposes. You can't just pick one, regardless of whether it was 'the first reason' or the 'primary' reason and say that's why, because you dislike it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but reading over everything again it sure doesn't seem like it.
    Not according to what I have seen Blizzard employees say, or according to you clearly imagined that I saw. Clearly it's very important to you that I adapt to what the official announcement says which means NV was thought up as a solution to both at the very same time with an equal importance on each aspect, so just to make you happy I'll ignore everything I know and have read and agree that this was the case.

    Hope you are happy now that I clearly learned my lesson not to give in to that urge to be a nice guy and answer a question based on my knowledge on the subject in fear of being forced to spend time defending something so trivial.
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  12. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Hope you are happy now that I clearly learned my lesson not to give in to that urge to be a nice guy and answer a question based on my knowledge on the subject in fear of being forced to spend time defending something so trivial.
    You answered a question incorrectly (imo) though. Not like it matters since it was to someone else who hates the game as much as you, but yeah. I'm not attacking your intentions. I just disagree with what you and the Gimp were saying about it. Also I'm geniunely curious to see these posts you keep saying were happening as I can only find the one I posted.

    That is a serious statement. I would be perfectly happy admitting it started out as only that, to have them realize it needed to be something more. I am not siding against you and saying their reasoning is acceptable, because dictating what we should find fun is never something I will completely swallow.

    So in a non argumentative way, seriously show me these posts.
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  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    So in a non argumentative way, seriously show me these posts.
    Something I said I wouldn't spend time doing, searching Blizzard US for Nephalem Valor results in 2,6k threads, and it could just as well have been EU...even going blue posters only if you find a site that allows that you would still have almost a years worth to go through, really I know what I know, I can't remember the exact wordings but the tone and what was discussed clearly went in the NV was made to put some permanence to the skill system as D2 players didn't like the non-permanence of the new skill system.

    And really, it's to trivial to spend time on, I spent way more time than I wanted here already. I really don't care if you believe me or not, I'm happy to agree that I was senile and you are awesome and never been more right in your whole life, k?
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  14. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    And really, it's to trivial to spend time on, I spent way more time than I wanted here already. I really don't care if you believe me or not, I'm happy to agree that I was senile and you are awesome and never been more right in your whole life, k?
    So you mean you want to call me a douche, then when I level with you in a very normal and mature way you want to continue being immature? Ok. Whatever makes your day.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 01:48 PM ----------

    PS: I searched for Nephalem Valor and sorted by date. There are only 6 threads prior to that official statement on NV (US) and none of them have blue posts in them. Also is a link for EU. Guess what? Shockingly similar results.
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/search?f=...phalem%20valor
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/search?f=...phalem%20valor

    I'm guessing all of these blue posts you read were on a magical beta board that can't be accessed anymore?
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-28 at 06:49 PM.
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  15. #695
    I'm sorry I brought it up. Didn't mean to cause a ruckus, was just honestly curious about the implementation. Personally I'm mixed about NV. It isn't permanent enough to make me feel like my skill choices have actual permanence but at the same time it's really just annoying if I want to use the AH or tinker with some new skill. It's a compromise that nobody is happy with, which I guess makes it the ideal compromise.

  16. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    I'm sorry I brought it up. Didn't mean to cause a ruckus, was just honestly curious about the implementation. Personally I'm mixed about NV. It isn't permanent enough to make me feel like my skill choices have actual permanence but at the same time it's really just annoying if I want to use the AH or tinker with some new skill. It's a compromise that nobody is happy with, which I guess makes it the ideal compromise.
    Regarding the skills, it does seem like a wishy washy answer to a problem. They didn't like being stuck in a build, because the mass people don't like it either, but they didn't want to give everyone free reign to change as they see fit because it lessens the challenge that the game was at launch. And inferno at launch was pretty difficult.

    At this point in the game, it seems like MP alone should be dictating difficulty and the freedom to change your spec should be allowed in order to facilitate better group play and lessen tedium.

    I definitely prefer not farming bosses over and over, b/c you at least see 'different' rooms, but they really need to make increasing mob density across the board a priority to really emphasize this. When the entire game becomes 'farmable', then they will have made a significant improvement. If they could do that and remove all of the quests along the way, by just giving you open access in a linear fashion then this game will be much better for farming.
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  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    I'm sorry I brought it up. Didn't mean to cause a ruckus, was just honestly curious about the implementation. Personally I'm mixed about NV. It isn't permanent enough to make me feel like my skill choices have actual permanence but at the same time it's really just annoying if I want to use the AH or tinker with some new skill. It's a compromise that nobody is happy with, which I guess makes it the ideal compromise.
    Nv does need a tweak, you should be able to carry it over for the rest of its duration inbetween games or you should be able to change acts in game. The current way doesnt benefit the player in any way.

    Maybe time to move on for some, you dont play the game anymore, time to let it go.

    Mob density wont work with the current system because you cant avoid attacks.

    Ive tried the ptr and the nv tweak only applies if you kill the butcher and move to a2, you still drop stacks otherwise.

  18. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    Mob density wont work with the current system because you cant avoid attacks.
    Huh? /10char
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  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Huh? /10char
    One of the key flaws with the game, you cant avoid melee attacks. Once the first frame of their attack animation starts they hit you reguardless if you teleport or run like hell. This really pissed people off because you have to have gear to mitigate damage, combined with the rmah and its just dirty on their part.

  20. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    One of the key flaws with the game, you cant avoid melee attacks. Once the first frame of their attack animation starts they hit you reguardless if you teleport or run like hell. This really pissed people off because you have to have gear to mitigate damage, combined with the rmah and its just dirty on their part.
    Wrong. Only specific abilities from certain types of mobs have that mechanic, and its on purpose. You can avoid 80% of the damage in this game.

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