•We have an enormous number of skill build combinations, and we want a lot of those skill builds to be viable and interesting
•While there are millions of skill builds available to players, we don’t want players swapping skills regularly to beat specific encounters as they come up
•We don’t want repeatedly running specific three-minute chunks of the game to be the most efficient way to acquire gear for your character
•While a three-minute run shouldn’t be the most efficient, we also don’t want you to feel like it’s a two-hour commitment every time you sit down to play
•Bosses should still feel worth killing
So you were corrected and you don't like that - as usual.
I really don't think there is even a discussion going on about this: Blizzard wanted to avoid the short spamming of boss fights (like D2) and so invented the NV stacks to make these boss fights dropping rares and "worthwile" just a few weeks after launch.
The fact the change in skills dropped the NV stack was a side effect to ensure bosses should still be worth killing.
I am really starting to wonder if you are really that kind of hardcore player as you state you are, since everyone who played back at launch remembers this very well...
Last edited by BenBos; 2013-01-28 at 02:58 PM.
We can't fathom the depths of Blizzard's 'true' thoughts, but we do have their public communication. This is from a well known CM, is very straight forward and reiterates those same points multiple times in the post. Here's another quote, since you are trying to make facts go away:
We expect this system will encourage players to stick with a skill build of their choice, select an area of the game they enjoy, and sweep it for rare and champion packs on their way to a boss, finishing off a run with a boss that’ll be worth killing. If you wanted a shorter play session you could be done at that point, but if you have more time, the path of least resistance would ideally be to stay in the same game and make your way towards the next boss.
---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 10:11 AM ----------
I'm not defending you. You are doing the same thing and then pointing your finger at Alyssa. Hypocritical.
The NV stacks were introdcued first to make boss fights more meaningful (lasting longer and dropping yellows). Then people complained why they would loose their NV stacks when respeccing... and Blizzard explained it all.
It was all in a matter of days that these posts were made. But the core was that Blizzard wanted more meaningful boss fights (hence a lead up to 5 NV stacks).
THAT was the original intent of the NV stack of 5. Not to keep players from respeccing like Jesus stated (that was the side effect).
Forcing people to not be able to do less than 1 minute boss runs can be achieved in so many ways, hell most of them can't be farmed in such short sessions anyway, the only exceptions I can think of is Ghom and Diablo, the rest you have to clear to get to and once you killed it the quest progresses you so you would have to dclear it all over, not to mention that the game will lock you out after a while of running such short sessions anyway.Overall, we think Nephalem Valor does a great job at addressing two core needs. First, it helps make sure that extremely short play sessions (i.e. < 1 minute) are not the optimal way to play.
There are more blue quotes on the subject as it's been discussed quite a lot, hell they even asked the players what they thought about being able to skill swap at will during one of those. If memory serves me correctly Bashiok have even stated that it was it's primary function at one point.
I'm not going to waste a lot of time digging up confirmations on things I know from following blue tracker and official forums at the time, common sense should be enough to see that NV is a creation to limit skill changes with the byproduct of making short sessions less attractive as the latter can be achieved in many ways quite easy.
Last edited by Redblade; 2013-01-28 at 03:32 PM.
NV was implemented for both of the reasons you are arguing and neither of you can get your heads out long enough to admit it.
The new system wasn't received well by a lot of D2 players as it lacked skill build permanence hence why they made NV to add some permanence as a compromise between what the oldschool players wanted and what Blizzard was making.
Last edited by Redblade; 2013-01-28 at 03:56 PM.
It's not like they had a meeting on how to limit people's play as much as possible, then how to spin it so that it seems they were doing a good thing. Like I said, your anger is forming a tin foil hat. While you might not agree with them telling you what is fun, and I'm not saying I do either, the specifics of skill swapping was so that you didn't do it for every new pack you faced and every boss. Once you could do that, a player feels they 'have' to do it.
Even if that was the only reason, you're spinning it to match what you believe the game to be. In either case, the second of which isn't even true, you're still just twisting ideas to match your opinion of the game.
It's funny that you both claim to have mysterious evidence that you can't care to post as to why you are both right.
Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-28 at 03:58 PM.
The discussion where it's being stated that NV was created as a compromise was with a blue poster, there is no conspiracy theory nor spin. That you chose to go by the literal wording in the announcement in a discussion that had nothing to do with you to begin with is just arguing to argue.
Normally we can disagree with respect but currently you are being, to be blunt, quite a douche. What you are saying is that I'm lying to twist it in to that short play sessions wasn't the primary reason for making NV, what possible reason would I have for that, I couldn't care less why it was created, again, I only replied based on what Blizzard employees have said on the subject.
Didn't know one would need to provide at least three individually confirmed sources to be nice and answer a question...
Sorry but these forums have become a place for people who seem to loathe the game, though they continue to play it non stop, to continuously rip it apart. Now we're going back in time to assign our own reasons for why certain decisions were made, even when they have officially stated differently?
You can't see why I'm 'joining the conversation' on that? I don't really like to sit by why people paint broad, nonfactual strokes for any reason. I'm sure one day I'll be a victim of the same thing and someone like me and you will be there to keep trying to remind me I'm making things up or interpreting something incorrectly...I probably have already done it idk.
Just trying to provide the completely non biased voice of reason on this particular matter.
The moral of the story is that the design of NV clearly had multiple purposes. You can't just pick one, regardless of whether it was 'the first reason' or the 'primary' reason and say that's why, because you dislike it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but reading over everything again it sure doesn't seem like it.
Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-28 at 04:42 PM.
Hope you are happy now that I clearly learned my lesson not to give in to that urge to be a nice guy and answer a question based on my knowledge on the subject in fear of being forced to spend time defending something so trivial.
That is a serious statement. I would be perfectly happy admitting it started out as only that, to have them realize it needed to be something more. I am not siding against you and saying their reasoning is acceptable, because dictating what we should find fun is never something I will completely swallow.
So in a non argumentative way, seriously show me these posts.
And really, it's to trivial to spend time on, I spent way more time than I wanted here already. I really don't care if you believe me or not, I'm happy to agree that I was senile and you are awesome and never been more right in your whole life, k?
---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 01:48 PM ----------
PS: I searched for Nephalem Valor and sorted by date. There are only 6 threads prior to that official statement on NV (US) and none of them have blue posts in them. Also is a link for EU. Guess what? Shockingly similar results.
I'm guessing all of these blue posts you read were on a magical beta board that can't be accessed anymore?
Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-28 at 06:49 PM.
I'm sorry I brought it up. Didn't mean to cause a ruckus, was just honestly curious about the implementation. Personally I'm mixed about NV. It isn't permanent enough to make me feel like my skill choices have actual permanence but at the same time it's really just annoying if I want to use the AH or tinker with some new skill. It's a compromise that nobody is happy with, which I guess makes it the ideal compromise.
At this point in the game, it seems like MP alone should be dictating difficulty and the freedom to change your spec should be allowed in order to facilitate better group play and lessen tedium.
I definitely prefer not farming bosses over and over, b/c you at least see 'different' rooms, but they really need to make increasing mob density across the board a priority to really emphasize this. When the entire game becomes 'farmable', then they will have made a significant improvement. If they could do that and remove all of the quests along the way, by just giving you open access in a linear fashion then this game will be much better for farming.
Maybe time to move on for some, you dont play the game anymore, time to let it go.
Mob density wont work with the current system because you cant avoid attacks.
Ive tried the ptr and the nv tweak only applies if you kill the butcher and move to a2, you still drop stacks otherwise.