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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    [BM][Surv] - openers?

    I recently rolled Hunter. Going alright, but I'm really at a loss when it comes to stuff like openers and general cooldown coordination (to delay or not to delay!)

    Any pointers?

  2. #2
    Never use rapid fire during lust/TW.

    As BM, don't use focus fire during bestial wrath.

    With AMOC, try to get the full duration before you cast it the second time with readiness.

    Never waste a GCD. You should ALWAYS be shooting something, unless mechanics specify otherwise.

    Get as many kill commands during Bestial as you can, on the last one that you can squeeze in during BW, pop readiness and do another one immediately after.

    As surv, with Lock and Load procs, it's exp shot, arc shot, exp shot, arc shot, exp shot. Otherwise, you waste ticks from the exp shots.

    Glaive toss. Use it. Love it. Keep it on CD.

    When swapping targets, It's good practice to manually switch your pet as well. Otherwise, you may end up kill commanding your previous target. Pets can be a bit special like that sometimes.

    Serpent sting. 100% uptime. 'Nuff said.

    Go ahead and pop rapid fire with all your other cd's on the pull. After readiness, don't pop it again until after bestial has ended.

  3. #3
    The Patient The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    Never use rapid fire during lust/TW.

    As BM, don't use focus fire during bestial wrath.

    With AMOC, try to get the full duration before you cast it the second time with readiness.

    Never waste a GCD. You should ALWAYS be shooting something, unless mechanics specify otherwise.

    Get as many kill commands during Bestial as you can, on the last one that you can squeeze in during BW, pop readiness and do another one immediately after.

    As surv, with Lock and Load procs, it's exp shot, arc shot, exp shot, arc shot, exp shot. Otherwise, you waste ticks from the exp shots.

    Glaive toss. Use it. Love it. Keep it on CD.

    When swapping targets, It's good practice to manually switch your pet as well. Otherwise, you may end up kill commanding your previous target. Pets can be a bit special like that sometimes.

    Serpent sting. 100% uptime. 'Nuff said.

    Go ahead and pop rapid fire with all your other cd's on the pull. After readiness, don't pop it again until after bestial has ended.
    dont believe the bolded is true now with es

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    Never use rapid fire during lust/TW.

    As BM, don't use focus fire during bestial wrath.

    With AMOC, try to get the full duration before you cast it the second time with readiness.

    Never waste a GCD. You should ALWAYS be shooting something, unless mechanics specify otherwise.

    Get as many kill commands during Bestial as you can, on the last one that you can squeeze in during BW, pop readiness and do another one immediately after.

    As surv, with Lock and Load procs, it's exp shot, arc shot, exp shot, arc shot, exp shot. Otherwise, you waste ticks from the exp shots.

    Glaive toss. Use it. Love it. Keep it on CD.

    When swapping targets, It's good practice to manually switch your pet as well. Otherwise, you may end up kill commanding your previous target. Pets can be a bit special like that sometimes.

    Serpent sting. 100% uptime. 'Nuff said.

    Go ahead and pop rapid fire with all your other cd's on the pull. After readiness, don't pop it again until after bestial has ended.

    Some of this is false

    LnL usage is Exp Shot, Exp shot, Exp Shot, it works like ignite now there is no lost ticks.

    use a petattack macro on your kill command so your pet uses it on your target

  5. #5
    Possibly. God knows the last time I played surv. I would still assume it would be the case though with thrill and dire beast being massive focus regens.

    Edit: did some fact checking. Shoot all of your exp procs as quickly as possible.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 02:58 AM ----------

    Oh, a MD macro is also really handy. I use one for my focus target, which is a tank. Not enough hunters use MD these days. Don't be one of those.
    Last edited by Asher13; 2012-12-26 at 08:56 AM.

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stances View Post
    Some of this is false

    LnL usage is Exp Shot, Exp shot, Exp Shot, it works like ignite now there is no lost ticks.

    use a petattack macro on your kill command so your pet uses it on your target
    I'm guessing it would be beneficial to have both the standalone KC (no macro) and a petattack one. Waste having your pet run halfway across the room on WoE, for example, I can imagine.
    Hadn't thought of it myself though. Cheers!

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 10:10 AM ----------

    Some more...

    1) How long should/can I delay Rabid for as BM?
    2) So the only point where I wanna stack Rapid Fire with BW is in the beginning before Readiness? And I don't want to use FF with BW ever?
    3) What would the most optimal (-ish) opener be? Like, a somewhat accurate description.
    Last edited by Serpent; 2012-12-26 at 09:13 AM.

  7. #7
    1. If you can time rabid with something that increases your stats' then do it, otherwise don't delay it for anything. Use it on CD.
    2. Using Focus fire consumes your stacks of frenzy, which increases your pets attack speed. During bestial wrath, your pet is doing way more damage than you will by using focus fire. You shouldn't be doing anything that has a cast time during BW anyways. If you don't use RF before readiness, then you are just wasting it.

    3. Misdirect, prepot, bestial wrath, dire beast, rapid fire, AMOC, any on use trinket (synapse)
    SS, KC, Glaive, AS,, AS, AS, AS,AS, AS, KC, Readiness, KC, Glaive, BW, Dire, as, as, as, (probably need to re-apply SS somewhere in here at this point), KC. Amoc once the duration of the first is over. Rapid fire, FF (if ready)

    Proceed to do your normal rotation/priority via cobra and whatnot, popping anything that comes off CD immediately, other than the FF rapid fire rule.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    1. If you can time rabid with something that increases your stats' then do it, otherwise don't delay it for anything. Use it on CD.
    2. Using Focus fire consumes your stacks of frenzy, which increases your pets attack speed. During bestial wrath, your pet is doing way more damage than you will by using focus fire. You shouldn't be doing anything that has a cast time during BW anyways. If you don't use RF before readiness, then you are just wasting it.

    3. Misdirect, prepot, bestial wrath, dire beast, rapid fire, AMOC, any on use trinket (synapse)
    SS, KC
    , Glaive, AS,, AS, AS, AS,AS, AS, KC, Readiness, KC, Glaive, BW, Dire, as, as, as, (probably need to re-apply SS somewhere in here at this point), KC. Amoc once the duration of the first is over. Rapid fire, FF (if ready)

    Proceed to do your normal rotation/priority via cobra and whatnot, popping anything that comes off CD immediately, other than the FF rapid fire rule.
    Ummm... wat... Dire Beast should be cast outside BW because it does not benefit from BW damage bonus, also KC is above on the list of both aMoC and SrS.

    Here's how I open:
    MD/Prepot > SrS > DB > BW+KC(macroed together) > LR/aMoC/BS > GT > RF+Stampede > AS > KC > Readiness+KC(again macroed) > GT > BS(if talented, otherwise AS) > DB(BW just fell off) > SrS > AS > BW+KC >>>>>>>> RF after BW has fallen off and continue as usual. This takes a while to practice, but worth it.

    At the end of the 2nd BW, I usually do 1 cobra shot to keep SrS ticking this time. It doesn't matter that you let it drop during the first BW, you will be focus capped anyway and the damage is still higher than AS.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    I do the following as BM:
    Pot - SrS
    AMoc
    RF-Stamped
    BW-KC
    DB
    GT
    AS till the CD of KC is off
    KC
    AS till the CD of KC is off
    KC - Readiness - KC
    GT
    DB
    Cobra shot if low focus, AS if high until the CD of KC and BW is off.
    BW-KC
    AS till the CD of KC is off
    KC
    AS till the CD of KC is off
    KC
    GT

    Then just normal "rotation" with keeping everything on CD pretty much.

  10. #10
    Really....You're really going to argue that? Oh god the order of the cd's that are all going to be popped at the beginning of the fight is wrong, and you will lose a miniscule amount of dps! The horror!!! I just listed all the cd's. Didn't put them in any order because quite frankly, it really doesn't matter. Blow them all and go to town.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    Really....You're really going to argue that? Oh god the order of the cd's that are all going to be popped at the beginning of the fight is wrong, and you will lose a miniscule amount of dps! The horror!!! I just listed all the cd's. Didn't put them in any order because quite frankly, it really doesn't matter. Blow them all and go to town.
    Of course it matters, getting a good opener means alot if you care about playing optimally.

  12. #12
    I open with a Kill Command so the pet rushes to the boss, cast amoc, srs, dire beast and then rapid fire + stampede - then I use my macro with 1 min trinket, BW, blood fury and kill command - glaive toss - spam arcane - refresh ss - kill command - readiness - kill command and go on as normal, rapid fire a few sec later when you are low on focus and need to cobra alot.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    I do the following as BM:
    Pot - SrS
    AMoc
    RF-Stamped
    BW-KC
    DB
    Not going to argue what is or isn't right, nor am I going to tell you how to do things. But I quickly wanted to mention that you are losing 30 focus and a global cooldown with that order. Your list looks fine to me apart from the MoC just before Bestial Wrath and Dire Beast after Bestial Wrath. 30 focus is worth losing a global cooldown for in Bestial Wrath, the cooldown you are now losing by casting Dire Beast during Bestial Wrath more specifically. Dire Beast doesn't get any bonus from Bestial Wrath.

    If you switch the two around you should be seeing a admittedly tiny DPS increase.


    In case the OP is interested I use the following.

    Misdirect and prepot before the pull.
    -Serpent Sting.
    -Rapid Fire (just so I get some benefit from it before resetting with Readiness)
    -Stampede.
    -Lynx Rush (before Bestial Wrath, the last DoT applied with it makes it so all the stacks of the DoT are boosted by Bestial Wrath and I don't have to cast it during Bestial Wrath).
    -Dire Beast.
    -Bestial Wrath.
    -Kill Command.
    -Glaive Toss.
    -Arcanes (plural).
    -Kill Command.
    -Readiness -> Instantly do another Kill Command.
    -Glaive Toss.
    -More Arcanes till Bestial Wrath ends.
    -Dire Beast.
    -Bestial Wrath.
    -and so forth.

    It's not always possible but I try to delay my 2nd Bestial Wrath a little bit so I can use another Lynx Rush with the boosted Bestial Wrath damage. But you need to time this in a way so you don't lose ticks from the previous Lynx Rush, not more than one at least.

    With that said, it's important knowing what scales dynamically (updates during the ability as you gain or lose procs) when considering Bestial Wrath. Murder of Crows for example updates it's damage with the Bestial Wrath bonus. If you cast it before Bestial Wrath and then use Bestial Wrath after the cast, the ticks during Bestial Wrath will do 10% more damage. However same can be said the other way around, the damage bonus is lost when Bestial Wrath ends.

    Major one is Stampede. Stampede pets update dynamically (explained before what it means) so you want to cast it just as trinkets and stuff come off cooldown. Not as soon as they run out.

    EDIT:
    Aaaand I'm an idiot, I forgot to mention what spec this was for. It should be somewhat obvious but this is a Beast Mastery opening. Survival isn't that complicated and the same rules apply, cast things early as they come off cooldown for the most part.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-12-26 at 05:59 PM.
    Bovan.9481
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    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    Never use rapid fire during lust/TW.

    As BM, don't use focus fire during bestial wrath.

    With AMOC, try to get the full duration before you cast it the second time with readiness.

    Never waste a GCD. You should ALWAYS be shooting something, unless mechanics specify otherwise.

    Get as many kill commands during Bestial as you can, on the last one that you can squeeze in during BW, pop readiness and do another one immediately after.

    As surv, with Lock and Load procs, it's exp shot, arc shot, exp shot, arc shot, exp shot. Otherwise, you waste ticks from the exp shots.

    Glaive toss. Use it. Love it. Keep it on CD.

    When swapping targets, It's good practice to manually switch your pet as well. Otherwise, you may end up kill commanding your previous target. Pets can be a bit special like that sometimes.

    Serpent sting. 100% uptime. 'Nuff said.

    Go ahead and pop rapid fire with all your other cd's on the pull. After readiness, don't pop it again until after bestial has ended.
    this was almost right a year ago... now its pretty much all wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 11:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    1. If you can time rabid with something that increases your stats' then do it, otherwise don't delay it for anything. Use it on CD.
    2. Using Focus fire consumes your stacks of frenzy, which increases your pets attack speed. During bestial wrath, your pet is doing way more damage than you will by using focus fire. You shouldn't be doing anything that has a cast time during BW anyways. If you don't use RF before readiness, then you are just wasting it.

    3. Misdirect, prepot, bestial wrath, dire beast, rapid fire, AMOC, any on use trinket (synapse)
    SS, KC, Glaive, AS,, AS, AS, AS,AS, AS, KC, Readiness, KC, Glaive, BW, Dire, as, as, as, (probably need to re-apply SS somewhere in here at this point), KC. Amoc once the duration of the first is over. Rapid fire, FF (if ready)

    Proceed to do your normal rotation/priority via cobra and whatnot, popping anything that comes off CD immediately, other than the FF rapid fire rule.
    again wrong. You can use FF before BW you lose the attack speed which amounts to 2-3 more attack ONLY IF you have the 4pc bonus, 1-2 if not or you can give you pet not only a focus boost to start the BW meaning more pet specials it also increases your pets focus generation by 30% for the duration of the BW. Use it before or after never during.

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Not going to argue what is or isn't right, nor am I going to tell you how to do things. But I quickly wanted to mention that you are losing 30 focus and a global cooldown with that order. Your list looks fine to me apart from the MoC just before Bestial Wrath and Dire Beast after Bestial Wrath. 30 focus is worth losing a global cooldown for in Bestial Wrath, the cooldown you are now losing by casting Dire Beast during Bestial Wrath more specifically. Dire Beast doesn't get any bonus from Bestial Wrath.
    I never focus starve so that 30 focus I "lose" isn't actually something I do lose, since I often focus cap with that start without using cobra shot. And casting DB before or after I activate BW doesn't matter, as you said, but if I were to cast it before BW I would've had to wait yet another GCD before using BW, and since AMoC updates as I get buffs and such I don't lose any damage from that either, weather or not I use it before or after I activate BW.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    I never focus starve so that 30 focus I "lose" isn't actually something I do lose, since I often focus cap with that start without using cobra shot. And casting DB before or after I activate BW doesn't matter, as you said, but if I were to cast it before BW I would've had to wait yet another GCD before using BW, and since AMoC updates as I get buffs and such I don't lose any damage from that either, weather or not I use it before or after I activate BW.
    Point taken about the focus capping, but I fail to see how Dire beast before Bestial Wrath is a negative thing. That one second isn't going to net you an extra Bestial Wrath in a fight unless the fight is roughly 61 minutes long. It's a negligible loss of 10 focus and a Bestial Wrath empowered Arcane Shot.

    But hey like I said in the first part, neither order is really wrong, and neither order will provide a significant DPS loss or increase. We're not even comparing apples to oranges here, we're comparing red apples to slightly lighter red apples.

    Completely different topic but I am wondering if it's somehow worth to cast Kill Command right off the bat at the pull. The focus loss will be recuperated and by the time you've pressed all your other buttons it's almost off cooldown again for your first Bestial Wrath. I personally didn't notice a single difference in my DPS.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-12-26 at 05:53 PM.
    Bovan.9481
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    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    With AMOC, try to get the full duration before you cast it the second time with readiness.
    Or put them on 2 different targets, if appropriate. Brings Crows off cooldown slightly sooner. ^^

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    Really....You're really going to argue that? Oh god the order of the cd's that are all going to be popped at the beginning of the fight is wrong, and you will lose a miniscule amount of dps! The horror!!! I just listed all the cd's. Didn't put them in any order because quite frankly, it really doesn't matter. Blow them all and go to town.
    It's a wasted GCD if you cast them during BW. That's why I do this

    Prepot
    AMoC
    SrS
    Dire Beast
    RF
    Stampede
    BW
    KC
    GT
    AS x4
    KC
    Readiness
    KC
    GT
    Cobra x2 so I don't need to waste a GCD reapplying SrS
    AS
    KC
    AS x3
    DB
    BW
    KC
    AS

    I have the 4 piece.

    Signature by Geekissexy Check out her Deviantart

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Point taken about the focus capping, but I fail to see how Dire beast before Bestial Wrath is a negative thing. That one second isn't going to net you an extra Bestial Wrath in a fight unless the fight is roughly 61 minutes long. It's a negligible loss of 10 focus and a Bestial Wrath empowered Arcane Shot.
    More uptime with BW during prepot and all things proced.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    this was almost right a year ago... now its pretty much all wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 11:34 AM ----------


    again wrong. You can use FF before BW you lose the attack speed which amounts to 2-3 more attack ONLY IF you have the 4pc bonus, 1-2 if not or you can give you pet not only a focus boost to start the BW meaning more pet specials it also increases your pets focus generation by 30% for the duration of the BW. Use it before or after never during.
    There is, however, one exception where you should not use Focus Fire at all, and instead allow your pet to retain its 5 stacks of Frenzy Icon Frenzy: during Bestial Wrath. Because your pet's damage done is so great, and because it receives double the damage increase from Bestial Wrath that you do, you should allow it to retain the attack speed increase. As soon as Bestial Wrath wears off, you should use Focus Fire.[COLOR="red"]

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 12:05 PM ----------



    Oh please enlighten the forum with your unprecedented knowledge of Beast mastery, since what I said is completely wrong. While you're at it, could you provide some logs of your dps as a BM hunter so we can rejoice and marvel at your godlike abilities???
    Last edited by Asher13; 2012-12-26 at 06:06 PM.

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