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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    So my 16/16HM experience doesn't count? It isn't a big deal at all. Logs have shown this multiple times. At 7.5% expertise, I will miss 2-3 KS per 6 min fight on average. The other night for instance:

    H Protectors - 6:27 duration. 4 KS, 3 Jabs parried.
    H Tsulong - 8:04 duration. 2 KS, 1 Jab parried.
    H Lei Shei - 6:31 duration. 0 parries.
    H Sha - 16:17 duration. 6 KS, 7 Jabs parried.
    H Vizier - 8:00 duration. 1 KS, 2 Jabs.

    Want me to go on, or can you see it really isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things and those stats are better put elsewhere to help our mitigation.
    I think you're misinterpreting my words. I said losing generating two chi (and a global cooldown) on a missed Keg Smash is a big deal. NOWHERE in my post I said that you cannot do heroic bosses if you miss your Keg Smash strike. NOWHERE in the post I said that missing a Keg Smash means wiping on a heroic boss. It just can throw complications if you already had plans for those two chi that you did NOT get for missing a Keg Smash.

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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I think you're misinterpreting my words. I said losing generating two chi (and a global cooldown) on a missed Keg Smash is a big deal. NOWHERE in my post I said that you cannot do heroic bosses if you miss your Keg Smash strike. NOWHERE in the post I said that missing a Keg Smash means wiping on a heroic boss. It just can throw complications if you already had plans for those two chi that you did NOT get for missing a Keg Smash.
    How is it a big deal if it only has a possibility of killing you and can be relatively simple in handling?
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2013-01-13 at 07:00 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    How is it a big deal if it only has a possibility of killing you and can be relatively simple in handling?
    If you think that: big deal = 100% chance of killing you; then I should probably stop right here as nothing I say will even make you at least understand where I'm coming from, but I'll at least say this: if you miss a Keg Smash, that means you'll have to do two jabs, which means two global cooldowns lost, to be able to keep Shuffle up, which could have even run out during, or even before the Keg Smash missed. However, during those three seconds the boss could probably have hit you twice, which means you'll have to spend chi on Purifying Brew, which means another GCD lost to create another chi used for PB.

    Who knows, you could have been lucky and the boss never laid a finger on you during those 3 seconds, but you could have also been unlucky and had the boss hit you with two nasty hits during those three seconds.

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  4. #24
    Oh I absolutely understand where you're coming from, but my personal experience has told me that when you factor in the amount of variables and the rarity of the situation in the first place, you'd have to be playing a brewmaster using your forehead in order for a parried keg smash to be nothing more than a relatively minor concern.

    If you're losing shuffle when you're about to keg smash, then there's a bit of a problem and I would actually recommend going more into haste than expertise. Having a shorter timeframe in between jabs will help with uptime (since it's easier to build and stack)
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2013-01-13 at 07:27 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Faolren View Post
    Here's the thing, there are undoubtedly tanks that could have just skipped capping defense (or get resil in its place) up to Cata too, and never gotten crit once. That's why the one video with XT one-shotting a tank because of an initial crit was so hilarious at the time; it's a one in a million chance.

    Just because it has never happened to you yet, if I was your raid leader I would be slightly annoyed at the fact that while you COULD 100% of the time prevent such a situation from happening, you won't for a less than 5% increase to your other stats. But like you said it's all personal preference, sure. Most tanks will, however, prefer a 100% guaranteed situation for marginally lower TDR, just the same as it was for defense rating.

    P.S. Bragging about your 16/16H progression when the guild you joined just recently 2 shot H Sha this week and worked on its progression entirely without you is kinda funny.
    You obviously don't where I came from? I was the MT in Topped Off and in for every Progression kill. Ask around or do your homework before you go making blanket statements. We were top 3 until Sha, and our roster was decimated by people quitting the game at inopportune times. 4 in a week really hurt. I was 15/16HM before I made the switch to NA, with P2 attempts on Sha so again....do your homework. Check the WoL rankings for Genshin(Illidan-Topped Off) and Genshen(Mug'thol-Nightmare Asylum).

    Moving out of Expertise while keeping the "soft cap" allows for better performance through the use of other stats. I am never starved for Chi, even if a KS/Jab are parried. I am not dying to hits because of missed Chi. My Elusive brew uptimes are tons better when I started going to a more Crit centered reforging, and my dmg taken is a lot less, and not as spikey as compared to other tanks. Healers are raving about it.

    There is a difference between excellent tanks and average ones. My Shuffle uptimes are high, I use Guard when needed, Elusive brew when needed, Dampen/Diffuse/Fort, and I will build Chi specifically for times when I know I need something to withstand incoming damage spikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I think you're misinterpreting my words. I said losing generating two chi (and a global cooldown) on a missed Keg Smash is a big deal. NOWHERE in my post I said that you cannot do heroic bosses if you miss your Keg Smash strike. NOWHERE in the post I said that missing a Keg Smash means wiping on a heroic boss. It just can throw complications if you already had plans for those two chi that you did NOT get for missing a Keg Smash.
    How am I misinterpreting your words when this was your direct quote from a previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's two chi generation loss, which could be used for a Blackout kick to keep the short-duration Shuffle buff up.

    EDIT: And when you're going against Heroic bosses in raid, missing generating two Chi in one global cooldown is a BIG deal, because those guys hit so hard you'll be likely using Purifying brew every 3~5 seconds.
    I am saying it isn't a big deal. Other monks that have downed Heroic bosses are saying it isn't a big deal. Why? because our experience and logs PROVE that it isn't a big deal.

    There are a couple of fights where Monks need active mitigation at specific, and all of those fights are predicatable. Sha - Thrash and Dread Thrash, Empress - P2, Will - Non Dodge phases. All are easy to build up for. Empress, I have a full 15 stack of EB going into P2, 3 Chi available usually for a Guard if I want to pop that first, or Pop the EB first depending, and usually a 30+ duration of Shuffle. If I get the first KS parried, hell first 3 KS parried, all I lose is threat/dmg, gcds and energy. I will still have all my active mitigation in place. How is this a big deal?

    About your comment about 3-5 secs of PB clearing? Have you done any Heroic bosses or are you just making claims based on assumptions? The only fight I have actively spent a ton of Chi purifying is single tanking Wind Lord. Most of the other times, my stagger doesn't get that high due to my active mitigation.

    H Protectors(6:27 duration) - 16 PB casts. 99.3% Shuffle uptime, Elusive Brew 49.5% uptime (active, not the stacking buff), Glyphed Guard for Lightning Bolts 60% uptime, 4 Parried KS, 3 Parried Jabs. Please show me how those parries were a big deal? BTW my average PB clearing for that fight was 1 in every 24 secs. I try to only clear when it is roughly 40% of my current healthpool, and I only hit Heavy stagger twice, moderate stagger 18 times.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/j7vkw...e/?s=108&e=496
    Last edited by gynshon; 2013-01-13 at 07:37 PM.

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  6. #26
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    I think the math provided in the thread I linked, combined with the experience of several of the other BrMs posting in this thread, pretty much makes it clear that hard cap is at best a crutch and at worst purposefully gimping yourself.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    If you think that: big deal = 100% chance of killing you; then I should probably stop right here as nothing I say will even make you at least understand where I'm coming from, but I'll at least say this: if you miss a Keg Smash, that means you'll have to do two jabs, which means two global cooldowns lost, to be able to keep Shuffle up, which could have even run out during, or even before the Keg Smash missed. However, during those three seconds the boss could probably have hit you twice, which means you'll have to spend chi on Purifying Brew, which means another GCD lost to create another chi used for PB.

    Who knows, you could have been lucky and the boss never laid a finger on you during those 3 seconds, but you could have also been unlucky and had the boss hit you with two nasty hits during those three seconds.
    Out of all of my Heroic fights I think the highest number of keg smash parries is 2-4 if even that. I clearly don't think you are fathoming the huge amount of Haste and Crit you are missing out on.

    Looking at your Elegon Heroic kill pm 1/3/13 you aren't using guard enough. You used it 4 times where as I used it 10 times.

    I got my kegsmash parried 2 times during the 6:38 minute encounter.

    I had 39 kegsmashs in 6:38 seconds you had 38 keg smashes in 7:55 minutes.

    I also don't understand WHY people keep using Rushing Jade Wind on Elegon.
    Last edited by Wreckage827; 2013-01-13 at 10:12 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    Out of all of my Heroic fights I think the highest number of keg smash parries is 2-4 if even that. I clearly don't think you are fathoming the huge amount of Haste and Crit you are missing out on.

    Looking at your Elegon Heroic kill pm 1/3/13 you aren't using guard enough. You used it 4 times where as I used it 10 times.

    I got my kegsmash parried 2 times during the 6:38 minute encounter.

    I had 39 kegsmashs in 6:38 seconds you had 38 keg smashes in 7:55 minutes.

    Also you are experitise hardcapped and you are not even taking advantage of the Sanctuary of the Ox Orbs.
    Will add to this. My most recent Elegon H: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/gjjgy...?s=3349&e=3664

    43 KS, 0 parries. The amount of times using Guard is relative to the encounter, and in this case I have Guard glyphed and only need it on occasion for breaths, etc. Don't need it all during the orb phases, or killing the pillars.

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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Will add to this. My most recent Elegon H: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/gjjgy...?s=3349&e=3664

    43 KS, 0 parries. The amount of times using Guard is relative to the encounter, and in this case I have Guard glyphed and only need it on occasion for breaths, etc. Don't need it all during the orb phases, or killing the pillars.
    Even still with their log she took 27 celestial breaths and only a WHOOPING 4 were guarded, if you are saving guard for breath you should have it up almost every time or every other time.

    I took 13 and 10 of them were guarded.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 02:34 PM ----------

    If people think they are taking too much damage it isn't because of expertise cap.

    It is the sheer fact that they aren't looking at what they are doing wrong, then they play the blame game.

  10. #30
    Having reforged from exp (over dodge cap) to haste to see how it feels, just wanted to ask if the tooltip correction to statue from 1600% ap to 800% ap (currently on live) makes a difference. I understand that we don't need these stats, that you can get chi generation from haste too, but does the dps/ statue gain from exp do more for us/the raid?

    If it's just reaching a comfortable level of chi before stacking crit for eb, how much better is haste for this on a point by point basis? (from my perspective, chi pooling is adding another thing I need to watch when I'm already watching a lot). Haste does improve eb uptime but is much less effective than crit rating.

    Like I said, I am giving it a go and I will do several times I'm sure, just want the reasoning and ratios in my head. Also is crit and dodge cap the norm our do I have to forgo those and just do haste? Even going only hit, dodge, I don't have the haste to reach the 13.34 regen I wanted. Well have to see what I hit with a haste elixir.

    (note I haven't managed to get venyasure's sheet working, might have to try again)

  11. #31
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alucin View Post
    Having reforged from exp (over dodge cap) to haste to see how it feels, just wanted to ask if the tooltip correction to statue from 1600% ap to 800% ap (currently on live) makes a difference. I understand that we don't need these stats, that you can get chi generation from haste too, but does the dps/ statue gain from exp do more for us/the raid?

    If it's just reaching a comfortable level of chi before stacking crit for eb, how much better is haste for this on a point by point basis? (from my perspective, chi pooling is adding another thing I need to watch when I'm already watching a lot). Haste does improve eb uptime but is much less effective than crit rating.

    Like I said, I am giving it a go and I will do several times I'm sure, just want the reasoning and ratios in my head. Also is crit and dodge cap the norm our do I have to forgo those and just do haste? Even going only hit, dodge, I don't have the haste to reach the 13.34 regen I wanted. Well have to see what I hit with a haste elixir.

    (note I haven't managed to get venyasure's sheet working, might have to try again)
    Haste is about 1/3 as effective at generating EB as crit is on a point for point basis. You really only need enough haste to have Shuffle up 80%ish, guard on CD, and as many PBs as you feel are necessary. The PBs you will need will decrease as your gear and your healer's gear gets better.

  12. #32
    This argument has, of course, been done to death. But I'm also a 16/16 HM Brewmaster and I've played with and without the 15% expertise hardcap. I have always found that Kegsmash parries are a big deal often enough that I have decided to maintain my 15% expertise cap as long as my gear permits it.

    It all comes down to valuing the consistency and predictability of my Chi generation over a slight increase in my haste and crit. (The extra damage + Ox statue guards is a great boon too)

  13. #33
    You guys are talking about soft cap dodge and haste cap 13,34 regen is this with or without the talent you get 15% more?
    And how much is the soft cap of dodge?
    Thanks

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimxzyana View Post
    You guys are talking about soft cap dodge and haste cap 13,34 regen is this with or without the talent you get 15% more?
    And how much is the soft cap of dodge?
    Thanks
    expertise dodge cap: 2550

    13.34 regen was without the talent and was calculated assuming you'd use chi on PB like... once every 6-8 seconds?

    It's a good point to be at if you go with power strikes, but if you use ascension it's largely not a big deal. The only thing about it would be that you have enough energy to use jab / KS once every 3 GCD's, so it helps with shuffle uptime by allowing for quicker buildup.

  15. #35
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    13.34 regen was without the talent and was calculated assuming you'd use chi on PB like... once every 6-8 seconds?
    On a fight with no tank swaps, 13.34 w/ PS gives you 6 PBs a min with 100% shuffle uptime and Guard on cd. Sacrificing 6 seconds of shuffle, 10%, would give you 2 more PB to play with. On fights with tank swaps you need slightly less b/c you can bank chi and shuffle when you are not actively tanking.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    Expertise and Hit to both hard caps (15 and 7.5 respectively)
    You definitely don't need to cap expertise. Like many have said, it all depends on your playstyle. You'll get more healing sphere's popping up and miss less, but unless you like moving a boss back and forth to pick the sphere's up it's not worth it. I do just dandy at 7.5% with high haste. Missing keg smash is no biggie, stagger should have enough time left on it to jab twice anyways. If aoe threat is what you're worried about just spinning crane kick and all will be well!

  17. #37
    Didn't the math show that expertise and haste were more or less identical in terms of how much chi/min they produced, with haste having something like a 1 chi every 7 min (ie. insignificant) advantage?

    I could see dropping that extra expertise for crit for those two-tanked fights, but haste? eehhh. I'm also a big believer in eliminating as many possible sources of chaos as possible in addition to dps being a tank's primary job so it's expertise cap for me.

    - another 16/16h (I guess this tag gets more and more worthless every day) tank.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Didn't the math show that expertise and haste were more or less identical in terms of how much chi/min they produced, with haste having something like a 1 chi every 7 min (ie. insignificant) advantage?

    I could see dropping that extra expertise for crit for those two-tanked fights, but haste? eehhh. I'm also a big believer in eliminating as many possible sources of chaos as possible in addition to dps being a tank's primary job so it's expertise cap for me.

    - another 16/16h (I guess this tag gets more and more worthless every day) tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Haste is about 1/3 as effective at generating EB as crit is on a point for point basis.
    The chi difference is negligible. The EB difference is gligible.

  19. #39
    en/character/argent-dawn/Blackmamboo/simple
    This is my char now i have around 13,95 regen with ascension, dodge around 13% is that enough or?
    Is that ok or where should i swap a bit?
    Thanks

    EDIT : Just won Terror in the mist LFR should i stick with that or?
    Have in my bags Bottle of infite stars LFR and Stuff of nightmares LFR.
    Last edited by Nimxzyana; 2013-01-16 at 11:48 AM.

  20. #40
    I am in a semi-casual raiding guild (all normals done, got a few HC's in MSV down as well) and I wanted to come in on this, having tried what Wreckage, Gynshon and some others have said about the expertise cap. The VERY occasional misses I get, are not a problem whatsoever, especially with the HUGE amount of extra haste I now have.

    My only question to you would be, I actually feel like I might have too much haste now, is there a point that you guys suggest stopping going into haste, and moving into crit instead? Perhaps an energy regen point to aim for? Thanks

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