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  1. #21
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    What about ignore the haste cap until you get ilvl 495, where you're naturally 1 gem away from the cap even after reforging for crit?
    I don't know enough about booms to really say. I assume it just depends on what you can reforge. If almost all your pieces already have crit on them and you are dropping mastery/extra spi it's probably better.

    Resto haste cap is 3043 and really easy to get in mostly blues since so much gear has haste already and you can just drop some of your least favorable stat(crit) to comfortably reach it. At higher levels of gear crit is even less favorable, you can reforge off a ton of spi, sit at haste cap, and have a very good amount of mastery stacked.

    You get 2 sets of stats on each piece to reforge, if you have a ton of extra spi, balance hit cap(do you guys even get hit capped anymore?), and have a ton of spi and mastery left over that can't go to crit due to it already being on the gear you can throw that into haste.

    Like I said, it's not black and white due to so many variables.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    I don't know enough about booms to really say. I assume it just depends on what you can reforge. If almost all your pieces already have crit on them and you are dropping mastery/extra spi it's probably better.

    Resto haste cap is 3043 and really easy to get in mostly blues since so much gear has haste already and you can just drop some of your least favorable stat(crit) to comfortably reach it. At higher levels of gear crit is even less favorable, you can reforge off a ton of spi, sit at haste cap, and have a very good amount of mastery stacked.

    You get 2 sets of stats on each piece to reforge, if you have a ton of extra spi, balance hit cap(do you guys even get hit capped anymore?), and have a ton of spi and mastery left over that can't go to crit due to it already being on the gear you can throw that into haste.

    Like I said, it's not black and white due to so many variables.
    If you're not familiar with the gear, then why are you flaming others for having a perfectly good suggestion? 495 is right around the point where you get lots of gear with crit/haste on it and you're nearing the non 4-piece breakpoint already. The person said the spreadsheets were wrong, because they don't do a good job of modeling the current content! In many situations, the spreadsheets will show stacking and reforging haste to be a dps increase, but real life evidence has shown that you shouldn't gear for haste until you reach it naturally.

  3. #23
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    If you're not familiar with the gear, then why are you flaming others for having a perfectly good suggestion? 495 is right around the point where you get lots of gear with crit/haste on it and you're nearing the non 4-piece breakpoint already. The person said the spreadsheets were wrong, because they don't do a good job of modeling the current content! In many situations, the spreadsheets will show stacking and reforging haste to be a dps increase, but real life evidence has shown that you shouldn't gear for haste until you reach it naturally.
    1. I flamed no one.

    2. I said I wasn't boomy the whole time. I said if you want to come into a discussion and say 'look at me and my mediocre progression, I know all with no facts behind it' don't expect anyone to listen to you.(not you personally obviously)

    I never said it was incorrect. I said it may be perfectly correct. I said bring math to the discussion or don't expect people to listen. If he had shown logs and data showing it was correct it would have been fine. Saying 'x druid said this' is completely hypocritical after saying 'x spreadsheet is wrong'.

    The spreadsheets aren't wrong, people just don't understand how to use them. Some spreadsheets model fight mechanics and some don't. Some spreadsheets will say X is better and be modeled after fights with no movement and they won't be correct.

    Saying *all* these druids do this and spreadsheets are *always* wrong is completely inaccurate. Going in shitting in every thread where someone posts what theorycrafting says saying with 'it's totes wrong bc I said so' is silly.

  4. #24
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    Yes, if you have to drop a ton of crit for haste. Like Sunfyre said


    At lower gear levels you won't even be close to the cap. So as the guides and spreadsheets all say 'get the haste cap unless you lose too much to get there'. The problem is the people saying 'always ignore the haste cap' or 'always get the haste cap'. They are both incorrect.
    Here's the magical apart about all of this.

    WrathCalcs would have reflected all of this. If you have to shed too much crit for the haste breakpoint and it's a DPS loss, WrathCalcs will show this. If it isn't, WrathCalcs will show this.

    The difference between blanket statements that some people are trying to make and a spreadsheet such as WrathCalcs is that it analyzes your actual gearing situation, weights stats based on your actual gear, and shows you the best result.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 02:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    What about ignore the haste cap until you get ilvl 495, where you're naturally 1 gem away from the cap even after reforging for crit?
    How can you make some blanket statement, that anyone, no matter WHAT their gear is, will naturally be one gem away, as long as they're magically item level 495? This is why spreadsheets are important, especially WrathCalcs, because it analyzes your actual gear and your actual situation and keeps people away from these blanket statements that have absolutely no facts to back them up.

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    How can you make some blanket statement, that anyone, no matter WHAT their gear is, will naturally be one gem away, as long as they're magically item level 495? This is why spreadsheets are important, especially WrathCalcs, because it analyzes your actual gear and your actual situation and keeps people away from these blanket statements that have absolutely no facts to back them up.
    Of course, saying that around 495 is when people usually try to get their haste breakpoint is an approximation gained through experience, much like WrathCalcs is a mathematical approximation of your performance in-game. Simulations are a good starting point, but not the bible. Sims will not go through all 16 fights this tier and run your stats through an in depth model to determine our performance. They give a good first order approximation, and may have certain scenarios built in, but in the end, its still an approximation.

    In the end it should be up to the OP to decide who's advice he wants to follow. The sticky is already there if he wants to look at advice gleaned from mathematical models. I believe he made this post because he wanted some insight on how people ingame are doing things.
    Last edited by happyzod; 2013-01-14 at 05:03 PM.

  6. #26
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    Of course, saying that around 495 is when people usually try to get their haste breakpoint is an approximation gained through experience, much like WrathCalcs is a mathematical approximation of your performance in-game. Simulations are a good starting point, but not the bible. Sims will not go through all 16 fights this tier and run your stats through an in depth model to determine our performance. They give a good first order approximation, and may have certain scenarios built in, but in the end, its still an approximation.

    In the end it should be up to the OP to decide who's advice he wants to follow. The sticky is already there if he wants to look at advice gleaned from mathematical models. I believe he made this post because he wanted some insight on how people ingame are doing things.
    Then back up your opinions with fact and not just blanket statements.

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  7. #27
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Then back up your opinions with fact and not just blanket statements.
    This has been the point all along.

    You don't go to a scientist and say 'your theory backed by research and numbers is wrong because I say so'. You say 'here, look at my research'.

    You don't say 'don't blindly follow spreadsheets because they are wrong' then blindly follow the word of one person.


    You can come and say 'I wear all leather agility gear and are finding that to be optimal', that's not constructive and it's not helping the OP. You say 'I wear all agi gear and here are my logs and testing to show it's optimal'. If crit is better SHOW people. Show people your large amount of logs and testing with all different gear options and how they played out. Just because you feel stacking crit was better doesn't always make it so. And just because something works for one person doesn't mean it works for everyone.

    Top resto druids play completely different from middle and lower tier druids. So does every other spec.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Then back up your opinions with fact and not just blanket statements.
    I'm not going to have this discussion because it is pointless. I've tested haste vs crit myself and crit has always won out. The OP can go test it if he so wishes. With LFR, it is very easy to reforge and regem then test out the mechanics by yourself. Spending the time to do so yourself is worth far more than spending the time putting numbers in a spreadsheet.

  9. #29
    When people ask for advice a top end raider isn't going to go through your gear and stat weights which takes a lot of time. They can only give you blanket advice to try to help. You have to take the suggestions with a grain of salt and use your own logic with the advice. That's why it's advice.

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