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  1. #1
    The Patient MYTHRIZ's Avatar
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    [Balance] Need help to improve after being resto for AGES.

    Hello,
    Long story short, i may or may not have to go balance for the guild, and i want to put my heart into it and really improve myself as a dpser.
    The downside is that currently most of my gear is a mix of balance stuff but mainly restoration parts.

    I have been checking out some guides, mainly MMO-Champ and Elitist jerks
    Currently i cant reach the haste cap (unless i stack haste gems) so i figured i should just stack crit for the time being until i get some more gear.

    If you guys have ANY input as to how i can improve, please do share.
    I'd also love any macros or tips to help improve if you have any.

    Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...thriz/advanced

    Thanks in advance.

    - Mythriz
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythriz View Post

    Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...thriz/advanced

    Thanks in advance.

    - Mythriz
    Hello there

    One thing that im sure plenty will agree is to try your hardest to go for that 5273 Haste Plateau.

    Now I did a couple different reforges, but this one seems to have the least amount of wasted stats (extra hit, haste over 5273). It does drop you Crit considerably ~8100 to about 5600. You have to replace your 3 Yellow Crit gems for Straight Haste 320+.

    Since you have alchemy, I would also shoot for Zen Alchemist Stone. (Dropping a purple for a Blue! This is madness!) It is actually a very good trinket. Get it upgraded ASAP.

    If you need the math on why Zen Alchemist > Jade Figurine. I'd be happy to show you when I get home.

    You should have 5642 crit, ~5300 haste(over plateau ), 5100 hit (yay exact cap) and ~2700 Mastery

    Eternal Blossom Cover 258 mastery (out of mastery into haste) haste

    Worldwaker Cachabon No reforge

    Eternal Blossom Mantle 224 crit → haste

    Cape of Three Lanterns 200 crit → haste

    Robes of Eighty Lights 278 mastery → haste

    Clever Ashyo's Armbands 182 mastery → haste

    Clutches of Dying Hope 244 crit → hit

    Weaver's Cord... 211 spirit → haste

    Fear-Blackened Leggings 308 spirit → haste

    Phasewalker Striders 199 spirit → haste

    Leven's Circle of Hope 194 crit → haste

    Seal of the Prime 194 mastery → haste

    Relic of Yu'lon no reforge

    Zen Alchemist Stone 323 mastery → haste

    Regail's Crackling Dagger 144 mstery → haste

    Fan of Fiery Winds 168 spirit → crit


    Other than that It deals with rotational stuff which I cannot comment on until we see some logs.
    Last edited by Kilma; 2013-01-12 at 06:25 PM.

  3. #3
    This is the best I could find for you, if you replace your figurine with an upgraded alchemist stone:
    (Press optimize, the weights are already set, and I believe they are saved in that profile)
    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/8...8-e4fc107c7395

    Shopping list:
    1x revitalizing meta stone
    5x energyized wild jade
    3x quick sun's radiance
    2x reckless vermilion onyx

    Other than that, you should see what reforge to what, the final stats are:
    (If you need reassurance, get reforgelite, and do it ingame after you regemmed. TIP of the day: don't use spirit flask while doing it)
    14.99% hit
    5375 haste
    5613 crit
    3182 mastery

    Note: You could force yourself closer to the haste cap, but the difference would be minimal ( like -70 haste, 40 less crit, and more mastery. )
    Last edited by skrog; 2013-01-12 at 06:45 PM.

  4. #4
    The Patient MYTHRIZ's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for the great feedback!

    I have one question though! Whilst checking the mmo champ guide i noticed that it said to ignore the haste cap IF you had a hard time reaching it, but to try and get it later on.
    So if i go for that cap now i'll have to give up a lot of crit (as you guys said), and trying this out on a dummy i dropped quite alot in dps doing so. I was actually reaching the haste cap earlier today whilst i still had alot of resto gemming going on, but going all crit and ignoring the haste cap pushed my dps up by about 20k.
    Is it still worth it?
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  5. #5
    Yes, dummy dps = irrelevant. You're missing buffs, debuffs, everything. The only reason crit becomes so popular is because it gives us extra procs on the move + extending of dots. However, with haste breakpoints you're receiving extra ticks that means, they will have the chance to be crits aswell, make your casts faster and your gcd a lot faster aswell. Crit becomes extremely good after reaching your breakpoints because that means you can benefit from the above effects aswell have the fast dots, gcd's and casts.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythriz View Post
    Thanks guys for the great feedback!

    I have one question though! Whilst checking the mmo champ guide i noticed that it said to ignore the haste cap IF you had a hard time reaching it, but to try and get it later on.
    So if i go for that cap now i'll have to give up a lot of crit (as you guys said), and trying this out on a dummy i dropped quite alot in dps doing so. I was actually reaching the haste cap earlier today whilst i still had alot of resto gemming going on, but going all crit and ignoring the haste cap pushed my dps up by about 20k.
    Is it still worth it?
    Zoomkins, a famous Moonkin, says that he found after going through hundreds of logs, moonkin should reforge for crit and let the haste come naturally through high ilvls. I tend to believe him since he's probably has hundreds of wipes worth of data.

  7. #7
    The Patient MYTHRIZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilma View Post
    If you need the math on why Zen Alchemist > Jade Figurine. I'd be happy to show you when I get home.
    Please do! I've also got the Mithril Stopwatch laying about if that would change anything.
    Thanks again for the reply.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythriz View Post
    Please do! I've also got the Mithril Stopwatch laying about if that would change anything.
    Thanks again for the reply.
    Alright a little bit of napkin math here:

    For INT procs: (proc amt x stat weight) x (Duration/ICD) = approx. Int benefit.
    Then add secondary stats (if any) (Mastery, Haste, ect) for total benefit, -> Seconday Stat x (stat weight).

    So for Zen Alchemist Stone 466: (4689 Int x 3.66) x (15sec/55) = ~4680
    Reforge Mastery to Haste -> 523 Mastery x 1.65* + 348 Haste x 2.00*
    ~863(mastery benefit) 696(haste benefit)
    Total : 4680 + 863 + 696 = 6239 total int benefit.

    *Stat weights are from Skrogs AskMrRobot.com Profile. 3.66int 2.00 Haste 1.91 Crit 1.65 Mastery

    Jade Figurine: 1079 x 3.66 INT
    (3595 Crit x 1.91 weight)(15sec/60) = Avg int benefit. = 1716.6125
    3949 + 1716.61 (avg int benefit of crit) = 5665

    The 5665 value can go down if you forget to use your trinket on CD.

    The Brewfest Trinket is hardly worth using when you have the alchemist stone only 4 ilvl below beating a 489 trinket on avg int.

    Bonus 484 Darkmoon Card: 1029 x 3.66 INT static = 3766
    (3261 Int Proc x 3.66) x (15/50) = 3580
    Total benefit: 7346
    Elegon 489 Trinket (no upgrade): 1079 Haste x 2.00 = 2158
    Int proc: (3236 x 3.66) (20/45) = ~5264
    Total benefit: 7422

    Heroic Upgraded Elegon trinket is def the best thing in the game for caster trinkets!
    Last edited by Kilma; 2013-01-12 at 11:17 PM. Reason: Butcher of Mathematics

  9. #9
    The Patient MYTHRIZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilma View Post
    Alright a little bit of napkin math here:

    For INT procs: (proc amt x stat weight) x (Duration/ICD) = approx. Int benefit.
    Then add secondary stats (if any) (Mastery, Haste, ect) for total benefit, -> Seconday Stat x (stat weight).

    So for Zen Alchemist Stone 466: (4689 Int x 3.66) x (15sec/55) = ~4680
    Reforge Mastery to Haste -> 523 Mastery x 1.65* + 348 Haste x 2.00*
    ~863(mastery benefit) 696(haste benefit)
    Total : 4680 + 863 + 696 = 6239 total int benefit.

    *Stat weights are from Skrogs AskMrRobot.com Profile. 3.66int 2.00 Haste 1.91 Crit 1.65 Mastery

    Jade Figurine: 1079 x 3.66 INT
    (3595 Crit x 1.91 weight)(15sec/60) = Avg int benefit. = 1716.6125
    3949 + 1716.61 (avg int benefit of crit) = 5665

    The 5665 value can go down if you forget to use your trinket on CD.

    The Brewfest Trinket is hardly worth using when you have the alchemist stone only 4 ilvl below beating a 489 trinket on avg int.

    Bonus 484 Darkmoon Card: 1029 x 3.66 INT static = 3766
    (3261 Int Proc x 3.66) x (15/50) = 3580
    Total benefit: 7346
    I had for some reason not noted the int procc on the alch stone, derp. But i already got it crafted awhile back so i'll be sure to use it. Thanks again!
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  10. #10
    dont go for the 5273 haste cap its a waste on most fights unless there is 0 movement then the hast reforge is ok. Crit is your friend once yyou have 4 piece boomkin then you can get the 3706 haste cap and you should be fine

  11. #11
    listen. dont go for the haste breakpoint unless your gear is like 495 or better and you can mostly get it naturally. in the real world, not on a dummy, crit is just so much better than haste. i think people just like to over complicate things because they feel like this shit should be more complex than it really is. ignore what guides and forums tell you and go FULL CRIT. the spreadsheets are wrong

    i, myself, am 15/16H with top 30 dps ranks on most fights this tier and have been raiding moonkin since late wotlk. Top moonkins like Zoomkins, Bushino (Blood Legion), and Lappe (DREAM Paragon) agree with this sentiment.

  12. #12
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    listen. dont go for the haste breakpoint unless your gear is like 495 or better and you can mostly get it naturally. in the real world, not on a dummy, crit is just so much better than haste. i think people just like to over complicate things because they feel like this shit should be more complex than it really is. ignore what guides and forums tell you and go FULL CRIT. the spreadsheets are wrong

    i, myself, am 15/16H with top 30 dps ranks on most fights this tier and have been raiding moonkin since late wotlk. Top moonkins like Zoomkins, Bushino (Blood Legion), and Lappe (DREAM Paragon) agree with this sentiment.
    Lappe doesn't think that at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    eventually people (Read: i) will just go with the highest crit solution with 8k breakpoint (go search for it for me, i dont have the time )
    Going for the 8k bp is not FULL CRIT

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Lappe doesn't think that at all...



    Going for the 8k bp is not FULL CRIT

    did you even read that thread? idk he reads these forums if he feels like commenting he can but the bottom line is you reforge down to breakpoints when you can take away from non-crit stats and put them into haste, not up to breakpoints by sacrificing crit.
    Last edited by crunk; 2013-01-13 at 11:53 AM.

  14. #14
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    did you even read that thread? idk he reads these forums if he feels like commenting he can but the bottom line is you reforge down to breakpoints when you can take away from non-crit stats and put them into haste, not up to breakpoints by sacrificing crit.
    It all really depends on the math, really. Obviously sacrificing 100 crit to reach a breakpoint will be beneficial. That's why we have WrathCalcs.

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  15. #15
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    listen. dont go for the haste breakpoint unless your gear is like 495 or better and you can mostly get it naturally. in the real world, not on a dummy, crit is just so much better than haste. i think people just like to over complicate things because they feel like this shit should be more complex than it really is. ignore what guides and forums tell you and go FULL CRIT. the spreadsheets are wrong

    i, myself, am 15/16H with top 30 dps ranks on most fights this tier and have been raiding moonkin since late wotlk. Top moonkins like Zoomkins, Bushino (Blood Legion), and Lappe (DREAM Paragon) agree with this sentiment.
    Content has been out since September and you haven't cleared all Hms yet. You make blank statements with no facts while trying to use your progression(even though hundreds of guilds have as many or more HMs down) as a 'I'm right because I've cleared most of the HMs'. You also put words into top raiders mouths which are incorrect while shitting on spreadsheets you don't understand how to use.

    Sorry, people who want to min/max don't take the word of mouth of a random forum user over hours and hours of ingame and spreadsheet testing.

    If you want to point out why you are correct with FACTS that's great and constructive. What you are doing isn't constructive, is borderline trolling, and helps absolutely no one. Are you right? Shit, maybe you are. But don't just go into threads 'no ya'll are wroooong just because' and expect to be helping people.

    If you want to debate if the spreadsheets are accurate you can make a new thread. =]

  16. #16
    Just to quote Zoomkins.

    Through numerous instances and levels of gear, I've seen crit stacking and ignoring the haste soft cap to out preform on almost every fight.

    The reason you see me with the haste cap is because (not trying to gloat please) I have been clearing heroic raids for a while so my haste/crit rating is naturally higher at this point. I am reaching the haste cap not even reforging into it.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004698423

  17. #17
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    *I'm resto, not boomy, but misrepresenting what someone's saying bothers me*

    1st off read that whole thread. He isn't saying ignore all secondaries, he says multiple times they are all good and balance is key based on your gear and encounters.
    As a moonkin your ratings all help you but, in different ways. No stat is a bad stat. It just depends on the balance (not pun) of what you're working with at the time.
    2. He is basing his data off his guilds logs and his and another boomkin in on of the best guild in the world's playstyle. Read post #5 in that thread, it's 100% correct.

    He even says
    Don't use me at 500 ilvl as a complete example on what you should be doing at say 470 ilvl. It's a lot of gear.
    In his gear ignoring haste(since even reforging it all off will keep it high) and stacking crit may work out best. But that's due to gear. What he does won't always work for people in lfr gear, reg gear, or even 1/2 heroic gear.

    He's seeing crit performing better because it's so disgustingly high(on his other boom too I assume). His gear is good enough to where he can pretty much move any stats to wherever he wants and be perfectly OK.

    3. It's gear dependent. It's not always 'don't go for the cap'. It depends on how close you are, which is what he was saying. If you have to drop 1k crit it may not be best. This is why spreadsheets are cool(and even Zoomkins said he takes time to math things out). You can look and see how much of a difference dropping what will make.
    As you get more gear you will naturally reach that haste cap but from extensive knowledge and playing it was a dps loss to gear for it too early because you are very far from it. You end up giving up your other rating synergies for it. For a single tick of dots, which 70% of the time, you should clip while running out of fires.


    He's saying don't stack haste if you kill your other stats and at top tier gear crit is beastly due to already having an overabundance of stats. It's the same as resto druids, you don't go for the cap if you are going to hurt your main stat too much

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    *I'm resto, not boomy, but misrepresenting what someone's saying bothers me*

    1st off read that whole thread. He isn't saying ignore all secondaries, he says multiple times they are all good and balance is key based on your gear and encounters.
    He says to gem int and reforge crit at lower ilvls, and to gem crit at higher ilvls. At higher ilvls, he says this. "Through numerous instances and levels of gear, I've seen crit stacking and ignoring the haste soft cap to out preform on almost every fight."

    He even says
    In his gear ignoring haste(since even reforging it all off will keep it high) and stacking crit may work out best. But that's due to gear. What he does won't always work for people in lfr gear, reg gear, or even 1/2 heroic gear.

    He's seeing crit performing better because it's so disgustingly high(on his other boom too I assume). His gear is good enough to where he can pretty much move any stats to wherever he wants and be perfectly OK.
    Quoted directly from his post. "I still advocate and advise that at lower gear levels you should use int gemming and crit reforging."
    Last edited by happyzod; 2013-01-14 at 08:30 AM.

  19. #19
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    He says to gem int and reforge crit at lower ilvls, and to gem crit at higher ilvls. At higher ilvls, he says this. "Through numerous instances and levels of gear, I've seen crit stacking and ignoring the haste soft cap to out preform on almost every fight."



    Quoted directly from his post. "I still advocate and advise that at lower gear levels you should use int gemming and crit reforging."
    Yes, if you have to drop a ton of crit for haste. Like Sunfyre said
    It all really depends on the math, really. Obviously sacrificing 100 crit to reach a breakpoint will be beneficial. That's why we have WrathCalcs.
    At lower gear levels you won't even be close to the cap. So as the guides and spreadsheets all say 'get the haste cap unless you lose too much to get there'. The problem is the people saying 'always ignore the haste cap' or 'always get the haste cap'. They are both incorrect.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    Yes, if you have to drop a ton of crit for haste. Like Sunfyre said


    At lower gear levels you won't even be close to the cap. So as the guides and spreadsheets all say 'get the haste cap unless you lose too much to get there'. The problem is the people saying 'always ignore the haste cap' or 'always get the haste cap'. They are both incorrect.
    What about ignore the haste cap until you get ilvl 495, where you're naturally 1 gem away from the cap even after reforging for crit?

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