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  1. #201
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    On which of the fight outside of windlord does that happen ?
    It doesn't really, hence the phrase "up to" which you conveniently forgot to bold - though I've seen impressive results on Empress, and let's face it, tanks do top meters on fights straight out (so well over 100%).

    Point is, between not tanking and tanking tank DPS is getting a 10x-20x difference (as compared to DPS); what I suggested is to buff tank damage when not tanking much by 4x, and then to reduce the gain by tanking up to 2-3x, from 10-20x. Self-healing would have the same scaling as Live.

    For one example, on Wind Lord, tanks are seeing huge numbers, but also remember that DPS also see big numbers (just relatively much smaller), hence tanks are about doubling DPS by doing 800k-1m DPS. Tank DPS on Wind Lord would go down to about 300-400k by my "solution" - which still isn't an "insignificant" amount of DPS nor "nerfing to the ground" but rather, reducing the spread. Bad DPS will still get beat, but not good ones.

    - also, the fact that tanks scale so incredibly means that tanks basically are far more important for boss DPS/enrage than the DPS, since percentage changes in the main tank's output would make a much bigger difference than percentage changes in a single DPSer's output. So complaints aren't really that unwarranted in that direction.

  2. #202
    100% agreeing with OP, remove vengeance.. Its retarded and tanks shouldnt outdps any decent dps'er. I liked it better when threat actually was a factor in PvE and when stuff like misdirect and tricks would matter to help the tank keep his/her aggro, now threat is just an old mechanic that excists but doesent rly serve any purpose since any lame green tank can just autoattack a boss to get unlimited threat due to retardedly overscaled vengeance.

  3. #203
    Epic! Tokru's Avatar
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    Vengeance is fine and dps tears are delicious.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It doesn't really, hence the phrase "up to" which you conveniently forgot to bold - though I've seen impressive results on Empress, and let's face it, tanks do top meters on fights straight out (so well over 100%).
    Oh look, another fight with Adds

    /clap

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by -Apathy- View Post
    We are being sensible, We're telling you to learn to play better. That's being sensible and we all still want your profile to see if you even know your class *giggle*
    And all you are doing is increasing your post count.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  6. #206
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarella View Post
    Dps should not be there JUST to down a boss, that's a pointless role. They should be cc'ing adds, picking up stacks of scary fog to kill lei shi and other important roles. That's what they should be doing, not simply putting numbers on the board. Perhaps they should rename damage dealers to "Control" so people don't get misguided of the point that dps fill in a raid environment.
    A lot of people would disagree with you here. Many people who enjoy DPS (in fact, I'd wager most) enjoy it because they pull the big numbers, and do the "killing" - that's why even though the support roles (tanks/healers) may be seen as more important and may get priority in a guild, they aren't doing (as much) of the killing.

    DPS are glass which is constantly reiterated, but if you aren't the biggest cannon, then WTF is the point of being made of glass? Make sense?


    Look at a battleground for example. All players - tanks, DPS, and even the healers - have to contribute control on a proper team. That doesn't make DPS "control" players, they are still DPS and their job is still primarily to kill the players and mobs.

  7. #207
    Brewmaster Jess Day's Avatar
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    Stop complaining, there's 2, possibly 3 fights where tanks can top meters, and 2 of those are due to fight mechanics. Play better and you won't see tanks near you on meters.

    Sincerely,

    A Dps.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    And all you are doing is increasing your post count.
    And what is it that you are doing? Besides looking like a 12 year old that just got told he cant watch pokemon.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 01:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jess Day View Post
    Stop complaining, there's 2, possibly 3 fights where tanks can top meters, and 2 of those are due to fight mechanics. Play better and you won't see tanks near you on meters.

    Sincerely,

    A Dps.
    Exactly. Crappy DPS will always be crappy until they L2P.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavax View Post
    100% agreeing with OP, remove vengeance.. Its retarded and tanks shouldnt outdps any decent dps'er. I liked it better when threat actually was a factor in PvE and when stuff like misdirect and tricks would matter to help the tank keep his/her aggro, now threat is just an old mechanic that excists but doesent rly serve any purpose since any lame green tank can just autoattack a boss to get unlimited threat due to retardedly overscaled vengeance.
    Now you have to figure out who is "decent dps". I've been tanking since TBC, and I've been regularly outdpsing dps in 5 mans in wotlk. And out dpsing some dps on some ICC bosses, as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Murder can be justified and to a certain extent I believe genocide can be justified aswell.

  10. #210
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    I've never really understand why people make these threads, when a post by a Blizzard Developer is made on the same day, saying that they're going to change it!

    Blizzard @ 9:00AM: We're changing Vengeance to be capped again, back to a % of their HP.

    Community @ 10:00AM: Hey, I hate how Vengeance is so stupid! Why doesn't Blizzard do something like, cap it at a % of their HP?! I hate this damn game!

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Mindark View Post
    Now you have to figure out who is "decent dps". I've been tanking since TBC, and I've been regularly outdpsing dps in 5 mans in wotlk. And out dpsing some dps on some ICC bosses, as well.
    Pretty much every tank out dpsed dps in 5 man hcs, because the mobs died so fast dps didnt really get going.

    The tank damage in WotLK was at a good place. You would beat poor dps, but good dps with pull 2k-10k more then you (depending on fights/tier). Right now, it doesn't matter if you are good dps or bad, tanks will out dps you on about 8 fights. You need damage buff (Elagon/Garalon/Unsok) to out dps a tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  12. #212
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I've never really understand why people make these threads, when a post by a Blizzard Developer is made on the same day, saying that they're going to change it!

    Blizzard @ 9:00AM: We're changing Vengeance to be capped again, back to a % of their HP.

    Community @ 10:00AM: Hey, I hate how Vengeance is so stupid! Why doesn't Blizzard do something like, cap it at a % of their HP?! I hate this damn game!
    At least personally, I don't think Vengeance should be capped, just its scaling reduced so it serves its purpose for mitigation, but tanks aren't topping DPS because of it, or at the low end, relying on it for DPS to begin with. I don't think Blizzard is wrong on their concept of vengeance, just the scaling that it has right now.

    I don't get what's natural or enjoyable about playing a role that when not tanking anything takes 15 minutes to kill mobs, but when taking more damage and getting healed, becomes a literal superman. I think active mitigation is a good thing, but would rather see lower but more stable damage compared to what should be glass cannons.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I've never really understand why people make these threads, when a post by a Blizzard Developer is made on the same day, saying that they're going to change it!

    Blizzard @ 9:00AM: We're changing Vengeance to be capped again, back to a % of their HP.

    Community @ 10:00AM: Hey, I hate how Vengeance is so stupid! Why doesn't Blizzard do something like, cap it at a % of their HP?! I hate this damn game!
    Can you link the post? All I remember reading was that Vengeance is capped at the tank HP. Which can be as high as 800k in this tier with hc gear and buffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Pretty much every tank out dpsed dps in 5 man hcs, because the mobs died so fast dps didnt really get going.

    The tank damage in WotLK was at a good place. You would beat poor dps, but good dps with pull 2k-10k more then you (depending on fights/tier). Right now, it doesn't matter if you are good dps or bad, tanks will out dps you on about 8 fights. You need damage buff (Elagon/Garalon/Unsok) to out dps a tank.
    I'm sorry, if you need a damage buff to outdps a tank on elegon or garalon, then that's a dps problem, not a vengeance problem.

    edit: and I don't want to spoil this for you...but the tank gets that buff as well
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Murder can be justified and to a certain extent I believe genocide can be justified aswell.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Can you link the post?

    Its on the front page..... Why don't you read before posting next time....



    Link for you.... Since common sense isn't one of your strong points.....

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...es-december-5/
    Last edited by Luciferstwin; 2013-01-13 at 01:16 AM.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabin View Post
    Obviously you've never done wind lord heroic with a dk tank.
    So you're entire issue is with one tank spec on one fight?

    Did the boss die? Did you get loot? Move on.

  17. #217
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Can you link the post? All I remember reading was that Vengeance is capped at the tank HP. Which can be as high as 800k in this tier with hc gear and buffs.
    I'll look for it in just a moment, but another thing I've never understood, is why does anyone care?

    Raiding is about bosses dying, as part of a team effort. You're not fighting each other, you're fighting the boss! So if everyone, even the healers are doing 100K DPS, who cares? I do agree by design, the damage dealers should be doing the majority of the damage, but this isn't PvP, damage doesn't need to be balanced to be fair, it just needs to be enjoyable!

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Pretty much every tank out dpsed dps in 5 man hcs, because the mobs died so fast dps didnt really get going.

    The tank damage in WotLK was at a good place. You would beat poor dps, but good dps with pull 2k-10k more then you (depending on fights/tier). Right now, it doesn't matter if you are good dps or bad, tanks will out dps you on about 8 fights. You need damage buff (Elagon/Garalon/Unsok) to out dps a tank.
    What 8 fights? Seriously how does any dps get out dps'd by a tank on garalon? or elegon?

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Hakto View Post
    What 8 fights? Seriously how does any dps get out dps'd by a tank on garalon? or elegon?
    Never said tanks out dpsed dps on garalon and elegon...

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 01:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I'll look for it in just a moment, but another thing I've never understood, is why does anyone care?

    Raiding is about bosses dying, as part of a team effort. You're not fighting each other, you're fighting the boss! So if everyone, even the healers are doing 100K DPS, who cares? I do agree by design, the damage dealers should be doing the majority of the damage, but this isn't PvP, damage doesn't need to be balanced to be fair, it just needs to be enjoyable!
    Because the dps' job is to pull numbers. It's why that role is fun. You took taht fun and gave it to the tanks. Now the dps have to play second fiddle to tanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  20. #220
    Read the post title and thought it was a morale question, but as long as the boss dies I could care less were the damage comes from.

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