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  1. #261
    wearing full dps gear to increase their incomming damage for more vengeance.
    That wouldn't affect vengeance gain.

    It would affect DPS, yes, but not vengeance.

  2. #262
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindark View Post
    DPS gear increases damage output, it doesn't not increase the incoming damage.
    This. Vengeance is a percentage of the unmitigated incoming damage; what gear you're wearing doesn't affect it.
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  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    That doesn't follow what I said. If you mean that "bitching about vengeance two months after the current raids have been out" is hilariously out of date, then you're entitled to that opinion, but it's safe to say that most of us would accept that a two-month polling period for current raids would be more than enough to judge whether it's over the top of not. Blizzard would catch tanks doing huge DPS within minutes of it occuring to prevent World Firsts disappearing under imbalance, however.
    It actually does. You were implying that the data was "Out of date" because he had the ability to get better gear right? You can have beeter gear now that this raid has been out for 2 months. Even if you were in full 489 gear, if you played correctly, you would outgear the 489 content in your 489 gear because of what the game allows you to do now..... and thats improve your gear with valor.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Yup, a very straight forward question. How can you be ok with vengeance? It gives tanks way too much AP and they are out dpsing alot of dps speccs, even on single target dps fights. Lets not forget fights, where it's all about the tanks and a few of their supports.

    Blizz took away a dps' pride and gave it to the tanks. Now all dps do is make up numbers in the a raid unless there are massive dps buffs in the fight or you are playing one of the strong dps speccs, that also on only a few fights. As soon as there are a couple of adds involved, that's it, forget about beating the tanks in dps.

    What is the point of vengeance? Blizz says it's there to provide undergeared tanks enough AP so they can hold aggro against geared dps in heroics. WHAT? Heroics are are obsolete. If a dps is outgearing a heroic, he/she, 1) doesn't belong there, 2) can easily "tank" a mob or two he/she has aggro on. The entire point of vengeance is utter nonsense.

    Tanks were one of the most important part of raids, and now they are given way, way, WAY too much importance. It's all about the tanks right now who have a few people supporting them. I don't want to play a support anymore. As a dps I should be doing more dps then a tank because that's my job, TO DPS DOWN THE BOSS/ADDS not the fucking tanks' job.

    Vengeance is should be removed from the game and if Blizz wants the tanks to generate more aggro against geared dps, just increase the threat generation from spells. Threat is a joke anyways so why the hell do we have vengeance undermining what the dps do best?

    And all that tanks bring dps to down bosses faster etc. crap. PLEASE, bosses went down just fine before tanks started doing more dps then dps themselves.

    The entire point of the trinity is, tanks soak damage, position the boss/adds, etc. DPS kill the add/boss and healers heal the raid. Why the hell are breaking away from a system that worked perfectly fine for 8 fucking just so you can give speccs far too much importance when they already were the most important part of the raid?

    Seeing tanks topping meters and getting top ranks on WoL, beating dps my miles makes me sick.

    I don't want to play a support anymore, I want my role and respect back.
    Ill fill you in cause im a tank and I actually understand how it works vs a dps whos raging cause he can't do his rotation correctly.

    The reasons for vengeance:

    1. It helps scale with dps so they aren't doing insane damage and instantly ripping aggro from us.
    2. It helps all raids actually pick up slack since people like you don't know how to do rotation.
    3. We all know tank dps does actually matter and tanks have been removed from group for doing shitty dps.
    4. It only scales x ammount it doesn't keep on scaling like a dps gear does so there is a soft cap/hard cap to it.

    Learn your class and play better period.

  5. #265
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferstwin View Post
    It actually does. You were implying that the data was "Out of date" because he had the ability to get better gear right?
    Yes, but the game is (currently) balanced around the current raid tier. Previous ones have (been) always thrown to the dust, hence why people go back and get their WoL rankings in Naxx years after it's become outdated (see this Naxxramas table that has a mage at 120kDPS, when that wasn't possible back in Wrath).
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  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Dero View Post
    Ill fill you in cause im a tank and I actually understand how it works vs a dps whos raging cause he can't do his rotation correctly.

    The reasons for vengeance:

    1. It helps scale with dps so they aren't doing insane damage and instantly ripping aggro from us.
    2. It helps all raids actually pick up slack since people like you don't know how to do rotation.
    3. We all know tank dps does actually matter and tanks have been removed from group for doing shitty dps.
    4. It only scales x ammount it doesn't keep on scaling like a dps gear does so there is a soft cap/hard cap to it.

    Learn your class and play better period.
    Pretty much this, well stated.

    And as stated by others earlier, there are some fights where the Tank will do some serious dps due to the mechanics of the fight, the main example being Will of the Emperor.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim32 View Post
    It was implemented to stop high-geared DPS always stealing threat. In some fights due to the boss mechanics, the tanks will top DPS. But most of the time DPS will - if they know their role. The threat gen is already boosted 500% but that still isnt enough if your say a newly starting out tank vs someone even half geared.

    -Grim
    It's still possible to pull threat off of the tanks.

  8. #268
    Biggest thing people fail to remember when talking about this issue, is that DPS will continue to increase their DPS throughout the remaining raid tiers in MoP. Tanks will increase their survivability/mitigation as time goes on, and there's a pretty finite amount of DTPS that bliz can tune encounters around, since they don't want to return to the Wrath philosophy of a boss being able to kill a tank in two hits w/o a heal, because it limited raid encounter mechanics, especially in a 10-player raid where you generally only run with 2 healers for most fights.


    All in all, DPS will constantly increase their DPS, while tanks will more than likely stay around where they are now, without a major increase on most fights, as they will aim to be taking less damage, and because they can only take so much damage before dying anyways (spike-damage aside). Thus the current levels of vengeance you are seeing today, should be similar to what you see in T15 raids onward. (with an obvious slight increase as you go, as bosses WILL hit harder due to higher HP levels, but not to an exponential extent)

  9. #269
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dero View Post
    1. It helps scale with dps so they aren't doing insane damage and instantly ripping aggro from us.
    Greater threat percentage linked with Strength/Agility (or otherwise) also solves this without encroaching on the DPS tables.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dero View Post
    2. It helps all raids actually pick up slack since people like you don't know how to do rotation.
    It's not always been like that, and (nostalgia) some people want to go back to when DPS did DPS and Tanks positioned/blew cooldowns/didn't die/etc. Having a larger proportion of the success of the raid dependent on the tank has left some DPS disenfranchised.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dero View Post
    3. We all know tank dps does actually matter and tanks have been removed from group for doing shitty dps.
    Again, hasn't always been like that. I've tanked Firelands when it was current on my DK who was Blood and dual wield: no-one batted an eyelid (not even on Baleroc).

    I know one example doesn't prove anything, but still.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dero View Post
    4. It only scales x ammount it doesn't keep on scaling like a dps gear does so there is a soft cap/hard cap to it.
    This problem will disappear, either in this raid patch or the next.
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  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim32 View Post
    It was implemented to stop high-geared DPS always stealing threat. In some fights due to the boss mechanics, the tanks will top DPS. But most of the time DPS will - if they know their role. The threat gen is already boosted 500% but that still isnt enough if your say a newly starting out tank vs someone even half geared.

    -Grim
    That's true, the coined term is actually called threat creep, and it says that over the duration of an entire boss fight DPS would eventually slowly beat the tanks in threat given that they're doing so much more DPS than them.

    Vengeance was created to counter that problem, but the issue lies in the fact that vengeance doesn't have a true cap (well, didn't until the PTR) - Vengeance as a mechanic is perfectly fine, and I prefer it to dps all getting threat reductions (I play a tank, I like to see bigger numbers..sue me) But the level that it's at currently is really far too high, you don't need such a ludicrous level of AP to hold threat, You don't need to do 100k dps to hold threat as a tank. You could be doing 1/5th the dps of a Damage Dealer and hold threat (probably not an exact number, just judging by Defensive stances giving 500% threat).

    So while Vengeance is a 'necessary' mechanic, It should be turned down a bit..tanks shouldn't be emasculating dps.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Wait, we all agree that tanks are doing huge dps (aka, vengeance is doing huge dps) on aoe fights, right?

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_Lord...11111111000000

    By default tank specs aren't checked, that link should show them.

    My criticism is limited to aoe fights and dungeons, which have a lot of aoe. Also, challenge modes, which are based on the dungeons. Single target (or mostly single target) fights I have no such criticism of.
    That's the obvious fight to quote for Vengeance being "OP" C'mon though, tanking that many adds, it's a given.
    Last edited by Alteena; 2013-01-13 at 02:04 AM.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Dero View Post
    Ill fill you in cause im a tank and I actually understand how it works vs a dps whos raging cause he can't do his rotation correctly.

    The reasons for vengeance:

    1. It helps scale with dps so they aren't doing insane damage and instantly ripping aggro from us.
    2. It helps all raids actually pick up slack since people like you don't know how to do rotation.
    3. We all know tank dps does actually matter and tanks have been removed from group for doing shitty dps.
    4. It only scales x ammount it doesn't keep on scaling like a dps gear does so there is a soft cap/hard cap to it.

    Learn your class and play better period.
    Until they put in the vengeance cap in 5.2 The only thing that stops vengeance from scaling is incoming dps. In theory there's a point at which you couldn't be healed anymore and therefore you couldn't stay alive to use the vengeance, But if you were to find a way to toe that line you could pump out some absurd numbers, and that's not exactly right.

  13. #273
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpyo View Post
    You don't need to do 100k dps to hold threat as a tank. You could be doing 1/5th the dps of a Damage Dealer and hold threat (probably not an exact number, just judging by Defensive stances giving 500% threat).
    Just going to clarify this.

    Currently, the threat bonus is 500%. This means you do six times the amount of threat compared to your DPS, so you can actually do one sixth of the DPS of a Damage Dealer.

    I don't raid outside of LFR, but Fire Mages are doing just shy of 500kDPS on Amber Shaper, requiring the tank to do around 85kDPS to keep threat.
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  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpyo View Post
    Until they put in the vengeance cap in 5.2 The only thing that stops vengeance from scaling is incoming dps. In theory there's a point at which you couldn't be healed anymore and therefore you couldn't stay alive to use the vengeance, But if you were to find a way to toe that line you could pump out some absurd numbers, and that's not exactly right.

    The vengeance cap is already in place.

  15. #275
    DPS are not going to be kicked out of the raid in favor of more tanks, and merely swapping into a tank spec and DPS'ing doesn't give you free AP.

    In other words, more DPS from the tank to help burn down a boss a smidge faster is a good thing and the OP is bitching because of... pride?

    Gratz, you've managed to come up with a thread that rivals the ones that call for the removal of flying mounts in crying over nothing.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    At least personally, I don't think Vengeance should be capped, just its scaling reduced so it serves its purpose for mitigation, but tanks aren't topping DPS because of it, or at the low end, relying on it for DPS to begin with. I don't think Blizzard is wrong on their concept of vengeance, just the scaling that it has right now.
    The cap was to fix the low-level exploit that allowed 80-85s to kill MoP bosses solo. It shouldn't actually have any practical effect on current content.(In fact, it pretty much can't, since you would need to get OHKOed by every hit you take to reach that level)

  17. #277
    As a tank: Tank DPS is artificially inflated on a few fights because of vengeance (windlord comes to mind ). That said, on single target fights that DON'T have gimmicks, tanks are NOT ahead of DPS. But they have comparable DPS to any low end DPS (at least as a Brewmaster). That's a lot better than, eg. back in Wrath where it felt pointless attacking when I couldn't come CLOSE to DPS anyway, autoattacking was fine outside of tank swap encouanters acfter a minute or so.

  18. #278
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    I've been a mainspec tank since MoP came out, but I was a hunter for 3.5 years and a balance for 6 months prior to that.

    You know which fight I was the most proud of?

    H LK 25, where I gimped my damage output significantly in order to MD, trap, dispell and deal with orbs.

    Yeah sure, I was in the bottom 4 DPSers on our first kill (and my fellow hunters even further below)... but you know what? We wouldn't have beaten the fight if it wasn't for the work of us three hunters (well, the next kill we were able to bring it down to two).

    I've never minded what I look like on the meters unless it was a fight where I should be working on dominating the meters, for example, Chimaeron in BWD.

    A boss that has come up often in this thread is Wind Lord, well guess what! Your job in that fight isn't to beat the tanks! Your job in that fight will be to ensure that the adds go down appropriately, that ambers are handled correctly (in non heroic), that menders are interrupted, that mobs are dispelled, that your CC (if assigned) is applied and most importantly, to make sure you stay alive through the bosses raid mechanics, because it will not be possible to just fill the raid up with tanks, YOU ARE NEEDED.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?
    Mechanics. Like the last MSV fight... I'm more worried if the adds died in time than if my damage is higher than the tanks. In fact the higher the tanks DPS is, and the lower the need of healers HPS is, the better.

    I'm competing against the bosses, not my teammates.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Vengeance is the problem. I have never created a "qq" (as some of you will call it) thread ever before, and I have been on these forums for a VERY long time.
    Solution: Get a post-it note and put it an inch or so to the right and up a little of center on your monitor. Write "999,999" on it. Look at you! You're doing lots of damage now!

    Seriously, people have given you soooo much evidence. BUT LOOK OUTSIDE THE TOP 10. No, you said they were top dps in some fights and outdoing many dps on others. They are not. Outside the top 10 isn't doing more than top damage dealers. Outside the top 10 there's not a noteworthy amount of tanks either.
    Last edited by link4117; 2013-01-13 at 02:24 AM.

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