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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Tanks should tank, let dps do their job. Vengeance is terrible and should be changed, make abilities generate X% more threat during Y% seconds.
    As told before.
    Vengeance is more then Damage. It also makes sure Tank bubbles and self heal and whatever scales with content.

  2. #382
    And to be honest ive been a tank since vanilla, started raiding in BC... I'm damn glad they got rid of the "Tank does 5-10% of the damage of a dps" design, it sucked balls to see myself do 100-200 dps when everybody else is doing 1000-1500, puts some more excitement in the role.

    I'd say tanking is at it's most fun it's ever been, high dps, dont have to bang your head to get threat, although the threat game was kinda fun in BC... active mitigation requires some thought, what's not to like? Leave our fun alone.

  3. #383
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    As told before.
    Vengeance is more then Damage. It also makes sure Tank bubbles and self heal and whatever scales with content.
    You didn't need this in past expansions I don't get why you'd need it now.

    Vengeance is an extremely poor mechanic and pretty much offers the reverse of what not-so-capable tanks wanted to get into tanking. Instead of fixing the system blizzard just bump up base threat each tier so now anyone who even read their spells upon dinging (new player POV) can hold agro.

    Active tanking - I repeat - does not need to be tied to vengeance in the slightest and is not an excuse to keep such a failed mechanic ingame. We have had varying levels of implementation with active tanking since at least TBC, dk's were known for their active tanking in cata which did not run off vengeance at all, etc.

    @Dreyen "our fun"? Ever considered some people dropped tank because it became so passive and boring? Others enjoyed the old style, and while you can't argue preferences you can argue a mechanic that has done nothing but add issues since it's implementation.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Flawless101 View Post
    What does it matter? Not like you can just stack tanks for fights because of Vengeance.
    I'll have to agree with this. It's a little funny how a tank can be so high in damage, but it doesn't really matter. Whether a tank is #1 in dps or dead last by far, you're still going to bring the same amount to each encounter.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    You didn't need this in past expansions I don't get why you'd need it now.

    Vengeance is an extremely poor mechanic and pretty much offers the reverse of what not-so-capable tanks wanted to get into tanking. Instead of fixing the system blizzard just bump up base threat each tier so now anyone who even read their spells upon dinging (new player POV) can hold agro.

    Active tanking - I repeat - does not need to be tied to vengeance in the slightest and is not an excuse to keep such a failed mechanic ingame. We have had varying levels of implementation with active tanking since at least TBC, dk's were known for their active tanking in cata which did not run off vengeance at all, etc.

    @Dreyen "our fun"? Ever considered some people dropped tank because it became so passive and boring? Others enjoyed the old style, and while you can't argue preferences you can argue a mechanic that has done nothing but add issues since it's implementation.
    I tank since classic. For all i care they can make tanking as hard as fuck i enjoy it both ways.
    But no dps better come to the forums crying they have to wait 1-2hrs to get into a dungeon.
    Thats the downside.

    And i can understand any tank that wont spend his freetime putting up with all the shit random dps in lfd can you put up to.
    Try to get the 4 adds the huntard just pulled into the group and feigned dead them to the healer while the mage pyropulls the group ahead.
    Ya that might sound like fun but after that dungeon 90% of the tanks do the next only with friends and guildes. Gz your que just got longer.
    And that was back in classic and tbc when people were less retarded because it was all server only. Imagine it now.

    Ofc i enjoyed getting pushed by warlocks in tbc, riding the limit.
    But it was also no fun knowing you simply held them back sometimes because there is only so much you can do for aggro and if you got outgeared you couldnt do nothing.
    Last edited by Asmalya; 2013-01-13 at 09:22 PM.

  6. #386
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    So that can be summed up with "I tanked since classic" and anecdotes, ok.

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by lopk View Post
    I'll have to agree with this. It's a little funny how a tank can be so high in damage, but it doesn't really matter. Whether a tank is #1 in dps or dead last by far, you're still going to bring the same amount to each encounter.
    Think of it like this: "if a dude stabs you with a sword, it's pretty much gonna hurt just as much whether it's a dude with a shield on his side or a dude with a 2nd sword (you get my drift!)^^"

    *giggle*
    made by Shyama

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    So that can be summed up with "I tanked since classic" and anecdotes, ok.
    No. It can be summed up with: "I dont care but dont go cry if wow suffers"

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Yup, a very straight forward question. How can you be ok with vengeance? It gives tanks way too much AP and they are out dpsing alot of dps speccs, even on single target dps fights. Lets not forget fights, where it's all about the tanks and a few of their supports.

    Blizz took away a dps' pride and gave it to the tanks. Now all dps do is make up numbers in the a raid unless there are massive dps buffs in the fight or you are playing one of the strong dps speccs, that also on only a few fights. As soon as there are a couple of adds involved, that's it, forget about beating the tanks in dps.

    What is the point of vengeance? Blizz says it's there to provide undergeared tanks enough AP so they can hold aggro against geared dps in heroics. WHAT? Heroics are are obsolete. If a dps is outgearing a heroic, he/she, 1) doesn't belong there, 2) can easily "tank" a mob or two he/she has aggro on. The entire point of vengeance is utter nonsense.

    Tanks were one of the most important part of raids, and now they are given way, way, WAY too much importance. It's all about the tanks right now who have a few people supporting them. I don't want to play a support anymore. As a dps I should be doing more dps then a tank because that's my job, TO DPS DOWN THE BOSS/ADDS not the fucking tanks' job.

    Vengeance is should be removed from the game and if Blizz wants the tanks to generate more aggro against geared dps, just increase the threat generation from spells. Threat is a joke anyways so why the hell do we have vengeance undermining what the dps do best?

    And all that tanks bring dps to down bosses faster etc. crap. PLEASE, bosses went down just fine before tanks started doing more dps then dps themselves.

    The entire point of the trinity is, tanks soak damage, position the boss/adds, etc. DPS kill the add/boss and healers heal the raid. Why the hell are breaking away from a system that worked perfectly fine for 8 fucking just so you can give speccs far too much importance when they already were the most important part of the raid?

    Seeing tanks topping meters and getting top ranks on WoL, beating dps my miles makes me sick.

    I don't want to play a support anymore, I want my role and respect back.
    You are the reason this game has gone to shit.

    You have actually reached a level of bad that I didn't even know existed; complaining about tank damage beating your own.

    Usually when horrible players play the game they are with other horrible players, including tanks. But some how you managed to surpass even that barrier. A horrible player with a dps class being beaten by a horrible player with a non dps class.

    I also like how in your long drawn out op you didn't link a single picture or log as part of your pathetic argument. But that's alright, I did it for you

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...one/?enc=kills


    Notice how the tanks are at the bottom in a real guild? And before you bring up the rogue, look at bosses these are for.

    Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?

    Again, not a log or even a picture of recount. Yeah, you ARE playing wrong. Infact I'm surprised you even managed to install the game for the level of horrible that you are demonstrating for the entire forums to see. Unfortunately blizzard catered to people like you during the last 2 xpacs and here is the result. Good players are dropping off but the bottom feeders are still sustaining the game and still complaining even though the entire game has been directly tuned you them specifically.

  10. #390
    Vengeance is a terrible mechanic. To the ones thinking it is needed for threat in any shape or form of the word, it is not. "But in BC Warlocks would be gaining threat and almost pulling 50% or more into the fight!", well that's why there is an ability called "Soul Shatter" to counter that massive threat that is currently in the game, and rarely on a Warlock's bar these days. By making the tanks have threat without issue, you remove some of the fun aspects I had as a DPS (I also tank btw, I found keeping threat fun), which was their own threat management.

    "Some classes didn't have any threat drops!", they did but either way they could have been given some.

    "But it hurts DPS, and the only thing fun about DPS is big numbers!~" - That's one PoV that isn't shared by a fair amount of people. Not going to say who prefers what the most, but personally mashing buttons in a "rotation" and moving out of things without the need to worry about anything else, is meant for Hack and Slash games and not an MMORPG.

    "But bad players!" So what? Design a game around bad players and the game will be bad.

    There is no reason for vengeance. It was a band-aid fix that seems to be redesigned a fair bit. How can something be "Good design" when it needs to be modified a fair amount?

    "But what about later tiers and DPS scaling?" Scale some tank abilities with Stamina, as that is always going up, every single tier. However don't make it so appealing that tanks just stack stamina.

    There are plenty of ways to handle "Threat" issues beyond Vengeance. As it is right now I enter a heroic, LFR or regular raid on my tank and I can pretty well mash my face on the keyboard and complete the fight so long as I'm moving out of shit. That is not fun, at all.

    Big numbers != Fun. Whoever believes it is, probably doesn't belong in this genre, in my personal opinion.

  11. #391
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Sure before I was geared. Not anymore.

    The reason tanks do more damage is partially due to active mitigation being better/more popular, so more tanks have hit/expertise caps.

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    Vengeance is a terrible mechanic. To the ones thinking it is needed for threat in any shape or form of the word, it is not. "But in BC Warlocks would be gaining threat and almost pulling 50% or more into the fight!", well that's why there is an ability called "Soul Shatter" to counter that massive threat that is currently in the game, and rarely on a Warlock's bar these days. By making the tanks have threat without issue, you remove some of the fun aspects I had as a DPS (I also tank btw, I found keeping threat fun), which was their own threat management.

    "Some classes didn't have any threat drops!", they did but either way they could have been given some.

    "But it hurts DPS, and the only thing fun about DPS is big numbers!~" - That's one PoV that isn't shared by a fair amount of people. Not going to say who prefers what the most, but personally mashing buttons in a "rotation" and moving out of things without the need to worry about anything else, is meant for Hack and Slash games and not an MMORPG.

    "But bad players!" So what? Design a game around bad players and the game will be bad.

    There is no reason for vengeance. It was a band-aid fix that seems to be redesigned a fair bit. How can something be "Good design" when it needs to be modified a fair amount?

    "But what about later tiers and DPS scaling?" Scale some tank abilities with Stamina, as that is always going up, every single tier. However don't make it so appealing that tanks just stack stamina.

    There are plenty of ways to handle "Threat" issues beyond Vengeance. As it is right now I enter a heroic, LFR or regular raid on my tank and I can pretty well mash my face on the keyboard and complete the fight so long as I'm moving out of shit. That is not fun, at all.

    Big numbers != Fun. Whoever believes it is, probably doesn't belong in this genre, in my personal opinion.
    Since when after getting some gear has heroic been different than "face mashing" as you put in since TBC ended.... oooh for about 2 months at the start of Cata ..... then face roll and MoP started with em being intentionally like that.

    LFR has always been super easy.

    And while you may enjoy doing a 3rd of the damage of everyone else I certainly do not I don't expect to be at the top but at least in touch with the lower DPS is nice, which on average outside gimic fights with lots of add tanking is where things are.

    If it need explaining vengeance is for threat scaling as DPS scale with DPS and thats the major function as tanks threat does not scale anywhere near as well.

    Why ppl like yourself feel its a bad think for the tank to be able to to reasonable damage as well as tank I have no idea, its harms no one and actually adds an element to the tanks game.

    I remember the days when you'd bore something to death before killing it as a tank ... glad those days are long gone
    Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men: Jean Rostand. Yeah, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour!.
    Classic: "The tank is the driver, the healer is the fuel, and the DPS are the kids sitting in the back seat screaming and asking if they're there yet."
    Irony >> "do they even realize that having a state religion IS THE REASON WE LEFT BRITTEN? god these people are idiots"

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?
    It really depends on the tank also :/ sadly I see Paladin's at the bottom part and BrM Monk/Blood Dk's on the top.


    There are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't...

  14. #394
    The Patient
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    I don't see the issue, lets say the tanks were even top dps. It's not like you stack them?

    I'll admit vengeance is a lil strange, atleast now when it dosen't even scale with anything. A flat damage boost does the same job.

  15. #395
    The tank doing much damage isn't going to make everyone reroll tank specs for damage, so I don't really see the issue, at all.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?
    False. Stop spreading your lies.

    Tanks currently hold the top spot on Wind Lord, Lei Shi and Empress.

  17. #397
    Stood in the Fire Satanous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    So that can be summed up with "I tanked since classic" and anecdotes, ok.
    Roll a tank? honestly you are all working towards the same goal (killing big scary mob number 2415125) so maybe you should focus more on the task at hand instead of other peoples dps and your dps wouldn't be worse then the tanks on 8 fights.

  18. #398
    Who even play PVE in this game nowadays?

    Post constructively
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-01-14 at 03:19 PM.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Hezo View Post
    Who even play PVE in this game nowadays?
    Interesting you say this.

    I used to love PvP and PvE in WoW. Now I only PvE.

    PvP is so inaccessible to me because i dont have time to catchup with gear that I barely know PvP exists in this game anymore. All i ever hear about is how imbalanced it is, to the point i think "why bother".

    To give you an idea of where i am -

    I have 17k achieve points and ilevel 503.
    I dont even know what MoP battlegrounds look like, nor do i know if they added any new arenas for MoP.

    Sometimes i even forget PvP still exists............


    PvP and PvE are just completely seperate entities now. Might as well split the game into 2 games.

  20. #400
    Sorry to break it for you but dps players have never had much importance/responsibility compared to healers and especially tanks (quite understandable why, look at the amount of guilds struggling on fights like amber-shaper hc purely because the average dps player has to do something outside of the normal rotation). Due to the way vengence works it'll also never result in tanks replacing dps, so no I have no issues with it, that I'll have a player automatically being higher than me on the dps meter on a few selected fights doesn't bother me the least (just like I wasn't bothered by not topping the dps, as a rogue, on a few fights heavily favoring range dpsers, and in those situations there was even a chance that I could've been replaced).

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