How can people be ok with Vengeance?

[NQ Exac]

Interesting you say this.

I used to love PvP and PvE in WoW. Now I only PvE.

PvP is so inaccessible to me because i dont have time to catchup with gear that I barely know PvP exists in this game anymore. All i ever hear about is how imbalanced it is, to the point i think "why bother".

To give you an idea of where i am -

I have 17k achieve points and ilevel 503.
I dont even know what MoP battlegrounds look like, nor do i know if they added any new arenas for MoP.

Sometimes i even forget PvP still exists............


PvP and PvE are just completely seperate entities now. Might as well split the game into 2 games.

You'll really feel this if you roll on a heavy PvP server, especially on bloodlust.

[Decklan]

If a tank is out DPSing you on fights other than Feng, Will, Wind Lord or Empress you're doing something terribly wrong, and you should feel bad.

[The Fiend]

I like Vengence on my tank because it is at least a nice consolation prize to see big numbers considering I have a far more complex and less rewarding job than any DPS.

[Abysal]

1. The point of Warcraft isn't to top charts. That's a huge part of what's wrong with the game today. People with "OMG THIS CLASS RANKS HIGHER THAN ME ON RECOUNT HELP BLIZZARD" mentality are forcing the game into homogenization.

2. I have no problem with tanks being able to pull good DPS on some fights. It helps my raid group down the boss faster. I don't care if the tank beats me. I care that we down the boss.

3. Seriously, why are people's ego's so bruised if someone pulls more DPS than them on a fight? If the boss gets down, the vast majority of people aren't going to give one crap what everyone's DPS was. The purpose of a DPS meter isn't to grow your e-peen. It's to help you figure out how you can play your class better.

[dewd]

Than learn to play, of the tanks are beating you on most fights its your fault and you are just not playing to your full potential !!!!

wind lord, much?

[The Fiend]

wind lord, much?

Some fights are good for it, some are bad, but the honest question here is.


Why do you give a crap? It's not like tanks will be stealing your raid spots. Do tanks complain when you can survive more than one hit of the boss?

[iperson]

Try replacing all the dps in your raid with tanks and then come back and tell us how it went...

[howdydiddlydoo]

I like Vengence on my tank because it is at least a nice consolation prize to see big numbers considering I have a far more complex and less rewarding job than any DPS.

Being clever sometimes serves me well in life.

I personally believe they didnt implement vengaence for the reason they stated anyway..........

GC said it was so tank gear could roughly scale with dps gear in terms of threat generation. I believe this is a load of tosh. If they wanted to focus on scaling threat generation, they could of made vengaence a threat multiplier instead of an attack power multiplier.


The REAL reason vengance was created was because tanks were becoming sparse and they used a "fun dps mechanic" (because most people like playing dps and seeing big numbers) to entice more players to play tanks......................

[The Fiend]

Being clever sometimes serves me well in life.

Congratulations, you managed to quote yourself and not read entirely what I was talking about, making my Quote totally moot.

You know threat is all well and good, but at the end of the day, Being a tank is like babysitting, and babysitting is not fun unless you have fun things to do WHILE babysitting, having big numbers pop up is a fun thing to do, therefor, it makes tanking more fun.

You basically want to make tanks suffer because YOU can't top a magical chart that in the end means little to nothing because if a boss goes down, it goes down.

[howdydiddlydoo]

Congratulations, you managed to quote yourself and not read entirely what I was talking about, making my Quote totally moot.

You know threat is all well and good, but at the end of the day, Being a tank is like babysitting, and babysitting is not fun unless you have fun things to do WHILE babysitting, having big numbers pop up is a fun thing to do, therefor, it makes tanking more fun.

You basically want to make tanks suffer because YOU can't top a magical chart that in the end means little to nothing because if a boss goes down, it goes down.

Uhm what?

My quote agrees with exactly what you said. You gave an example that fit my theory.

Have a reread.

[Sarthan]

The only fight a tank should beat you on is windlord, will of the emperor, and empress. Other then that you are just getting beaten. You bring up respect I think this is an issue of your guild mates calling you out on your low damage output.

They already nerfed vengeance.

[Drilnos]

Tank dps and damage dealer dps work off entirely different mechanics systems. They aren't balanced against each other, they don't affect each other. Thus it's pointless to compare them. It's like getting pissed that a guy in a vehicle is ahead of you on dps. It's just a quirk of the fight.

Dps should compare themselves to other dps, since that's the only comparison that actually means anything.

[Goldfingaz]

Why ppl like yourself feel its a bad think for the tank to be able to to reasonable damage as well as tank I have no idea, its harms no one and actually adds an element to the tanks game.

I remember the days when you'd bore something to death before killing it as a tank ... glad those days are long gone

I feel it isn't reasonable to do damage as a tank because WoW is based off of a "Trinity" when it comes to your roll. Heals kept people alive, Tanks kept aggro, DPS did the damage. There is more to it than just that, but that is the basic.

When we look more into it, Healers kept people safe, they predicted who was going to need heals and they managed their mana.

Tanks kept the aggro, to prevent "the weaklings" from getting "smashed". This included watching their own threat, vs the rest of the group, which could be challenging at times, and challenge to some people is "fun". They alwasy tried to manage the damage they took via abilities and passive avoidance/mitigation.

DPS were the ones who brought the "boom". They are the ones who brought the damage to the fight, they were relied on for just that. DPS also had to keep an eye on their threat, to make sure their damage didn't go overboard and pull threat. When most DPS classes started getting to the same threat levels as a tank, they had to weave another ability into their rotation. Whether it was Soulshatter, Feint, Fade, Feign Death, Misdirect, Invis, Cower, Hand of Salvation (Blessing of Salvation) or simply only white hit for a matter of 2-3 seconds, there was a lot more to manage than hitting 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 (Exaggerated rotation). These Players also had to avoid as much damage as they possibly could while keeping their damage as high as possible without pulling threat, and use any damage reduction cooldowns they had in order to help save the mana of their Friendly healers.

At one point in time, DPS weren't just about "Blasting things as hard as you can and loot", that was a Hack and Slash model, not an MMORPG based off the Trinity Roll system model. However today, with vengeance and insane threat buffs, half of their job was removed. No longer did they need addons like Omen to keep an eye on their threat. No longer did they need to balance their DPS and their threat levels. No, now they just sit there whacking away at the boss and moving occasionally to avoid extra damage taken.

The Tanks have now become "An important part of the raid DPS" which shouldn't even be considered. When you do this, you skew their viability and cause for "Balance changes". It causes the problem when tanks might start to hit too hard in PvP (Early Prot Wars in Wrath as an example). Now not only will people pick a tank on their mitigation/avoidance, they will pick them on their DPS capabilities, which causes a huge imbalance between tanking classes.

Tanks should never be about how much damage they can do, they should be about how much damage they can take (Avoid/mitigate), their reaction times on "lost mobs", and their ability to move the fight under "high stress" situations. Just because you see high numbers on your screen doesn't make your job more important, it just makes the DPS's job less important as they won't have to worry about aggro.

Why you and the rest of the people like that can't understand taking away responsibility from other roles just so you can go "Lul I pulled 50k dps there hur hur hur", boggles my mind.

Again, develop the game around bad players, and you end up with a bad game.

Little note: Sorry I didn't talk about you healers much, you're still the best <3

[Sarthan]

I feel it isn't reasonable to do damage as a tank because WoW is based off of a "Trinity" when it comes to your roll. Heals kept people alive, Tanks kept aggro, DPS did the damage. There is more to it than just that, but that is the basic.

When we look more into it, Healers kept people safe, they predicted who was going to need heals and they managed their mana.

Tanks kept the aggro, to prevent "the weaklings" from getting "smashed". This included watching their own threat, vs the rest of the group, which could be challenging at times, and challenge to some people is "fun". They alwasy tried to manage the damage they took via abilities and passive avoidance/mitigation.

DPS were the ones who brought the "boom". They are the ones who brought the damage to the fight, they were relied on for just that. DPS also had to keep an eye on their threat, to make sure their damage didn't go overboard and pull threat. When most DPS classes started getting to the same threat levels as a tnak, they had to weave another ability into their rotation. Whether it was Soulshatter, Fient, Fade, Feign Death, Misdirect, Invis, Cower, Hand of Salvation (Blessing of Salvation) or simply only white hit for a matter of 2-3 seconds, there was a lot more to manage than hitting 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 (Exaggerated rotation). These Players also had to avoid as much damage as they possibly could while keeping their damage as high as possible without pulling threat, and use any damage reduction cooldowns they had in order to help save the mana of their Friendly healers.

At one point in time, DPS weren't just about "Blasting things as hard as you can and loot", that was a Hack and Slash model, not an MMORPG based off the Trinity Roll system model. However today, with vengeance and insane threat buffs, half of their job was removed. No longer did they need addons like Omen to keep an eye on their threat. No longer did they need to balance their DPS and their threat levels. No, now they just sit there whacking away at the boss and moving occasionally to avoid extra damage taken.

The Tanks have now become "And important part of the raid DPS" which shouldn't even be considered. When you do this, you skew their viability and cause for "Balance changes". It causes the problem when tanks might start to hit too hard in PvP (Early Prot Wars in Wrath as an example). Now not only will people pick a tank on their mitigation/avoidance, they will pick them on their DPS capabilities, which causes a huge imbalance between tanking classes.

Tanks should never be about how much damage they can do, they should be about how much damage they can take (Avoid/mitigate), their reaction times on "lost mobs", and their ability to move the fight under "high stress" situations. Just because you see high numbers on your screen doesn't make your job more important, it just makes the DPS's job less important as they won't have to worry about aggro.

Why you and the rest of the people like that can't understand taking away responsibility from other classes just so you can go "Lul I pulled 50k dps there hur hur hur", boggles my mind.

Again, develop the game around bad players, and you end up with a bad game.

Little note: Sorry I didn't talk about you healers much, you're still the best <3

So we should go back to vanilla in burning crusade days where a tank could not do dailys at a speed close to what dps where doing them at? Nah its fine where it is at, I mean I pull good dps as a tank with loads of adds on me but single target fights a dps will always win especially if you have a tank swap mechanic.

[LazarusLong]

So that can be summed up with "I tanked since classic" and anecdotes, ok.

No, it can be summed up with:
DPS can start complain about tanks when they stop standing in fire.

[Goldfingaz]

So we should go back to vanilla in burning crusade days where a tank could not do dailys at a speed close to what dps where doing them at? Nah its fine where it is at, I mean I pull good dps as a tank with loads of adds on me but single target fights a dps will always win especially if you have a tank swap mechanic.

There were dailies in Vanilla days? No? Right.

BC Days? Never said get rid of secondary specs. Building a second set of gear takes no time at all. My DK has 4 set of gear currently, PVE DPS and Tank and PvP DPS and Tank.

This isn't even touching down on the fact Vengeance does next to nothing against quest mobs.

Do you have a better argument?

[razski]

Most of our raids have had the tanks at the bottom of the DPS, I don't know where most of you are going wrong, but just because tanks can keep up now, and sometimes push ahead of the DPS classes, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. After all, they nerfed threat right into the ground and tanks NEED those high numbers now.

It's just numbers. Ask yourself the real question, why are you so butthurt over a mechanic that brings a boss down quicker than if the tanks dps was low (BC low, now that was painful to be a tank in BC).


I don't get it, but then I play a healer mostly so topping the dps charts isn't really a priority for me.

[Goldfingaz]

Most of our raids have had the tanks at the bottom of the DPS, I don't know where most of you are going wrong, but just because tanks can keep up now, and sometimes push ahead of the DPS classes, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. After all, they nerfed threat right into the ground and tanks NEED those high numbers now.

It's just numbers. Ask yourself the real question, why are you so butthurt over a mechanic that brings a boss down quicker than if the tanks dps was low (BC low, now that was painful to be a tank in BC).


I don't get it, but then I play a healer mostly so topping the dps charts isn't really a priority for me.

Uhhh... they didn't nerf threat at all. Unless I'm mistaken, please do point me into that direction.

[herpecin]

the main issue with tank damage right now is that vengeance came about as a result of the strange wrath gear situation where mages had 50% crit and 70% haste. so the tanks needed a way to keep threat.

but now with the active mitigation model almost all tanks are capping hit and exp, so that along with the 600% threat modifier for all tanks threat is no longer an issue.

while the initial reasons for vengeance may no longer be valid, new ones have arisen with the tight enrage timers that many bosses have where you actually need a tank to be doing as much DPS as they are.

and many of the fights where tanks top damage are gimmicky fights like windlord.

all in all, vengeance is here to stay in one form or another. the more likely solution is to get all the DPS classes more in line(looking at you aff locks)

[HardCoder]

This is what keeps me playing healers, DPS players feeling outrage that their tank is doing too much damage.

That and the short queues.