You gte beaten by a tank, on a single target fight? Then there's something wrong with you...
And even if it weren't, nothing stopping you to roll tank then? If you can DPS as good as a true dps....
Basically it's not true, on most boss fights the tanks in our raids end up at the bottom of DPS unless we have someone new in the raid. Sometimes they score a bit higher, but all in all it's the way it used to be and is to be expected.
this is the first tier, vengenace will be the same amount for the rest of the year while your precious dps will increase exponentionally
i wonder how many there is tanks in here..?
but yeah, as a tank, and been since tbc, i love vengence, now we arent just the low down there, with 10% of the dmg done..
now we can start to see some serious numbers, and compete with the dps if they suck, a really good dps will never have problems with tanks out deepsing them AT ALL, (not on windlord or stoneguard)
but mostly.. i tend to not compete, and dont care about my maximum dps.. im going for survival instead, if i went for pure dps, the healers wuld hate me..
sorry for my english, im not born with an silverspoon in my hand.
Back in Cata I believe they reduced the amount of threat generation and tried to fix it with buffing it by 200%. But if you take a look around at some videos from TBC and Wrath that have the addon "Omen" in plain view, you can see the amount of threat a tank has is so much more than by todays standards.
You could effectively tank for 30 seconds and be so high on threat, you would not lose it at all the entirety of the fight. Now though, the tanks have to fight harder to maintain high threat. Vengeance plays a huge part in that. Reduce it/remove it and you'll have so many tanks that will be completely unable to maintain threat.
Take a run thru an old raid with a raid geared tank and a raid geared dps. The dps will be able to take threat fairly easily because vengeance isn't stacking very high and the tanks DPS will be a lot lower.
The 5x threat generation (used to be 3x) "hotfix" they applied isn't going to be helpful much longer and I'm betting there will be adjustments to the way threat is generated in 5.2.
GC talking about threat in 2010.
Article on Threat in 2011
Search "Threat" in patch 4.1 You'll note that threat bonuses were taken off abilities and put straight into damage. They have never put "bonus threat" back onto those abilities. That's the reason for the buff to 5x threat, instead of 3x threat. Vengeance was supposed to help fix the huge loss to threat generation.
Last edited by razski; 2013-01-14 at 11:20 AM.
If you bring 7 tanks, 3 healers (or 8 tanks, 2 healers) to any fight, you are going to hit Enrage. Even tanks can't hit enrage.
Sure, tanks do a TON of damage with HIGH vengeance, but blizz can calculate the EXACT amount of dps a tank does, and balance around that. Thus, if suddenly tanks no longer had vengeance, ALL dps would need to do about 15% (In 10 man) or 6% (in 25 man) damage done to beat the enrages.
Finally, even WITH the 5x threat buff tanks have, without vengeance, most tanks would be in the 20-30k dps range, thus limiting dps's damage to 100-150k.
Be happy that YOUR damage isn't limited by the TANKS damage, however meager your dps is.
---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 11:20 AM ----------
What I do know is, threat back then was much more of an issue than it is now, and that isn't going to change. No matter how much people wish to believe that "As tiers roll out more dps less threat!", I'm informing everyone it will not change.
The threat removed from the few abilities you listed (Self healing from DK's DS and Druid's bonus threat from Lacerate, Swipe and Thrash) did nothing significant to nerf it, at all. The damage was increased, which countered the change in the bonus threat. (I'm sure it was still probably less than original, but it went unnoticed in actual gameplay).
Things they could do to counter spikey threat: Lessen burst damage. Lessen the threat generation during specific abilities during controlled burst damage. Lessen the amount of threat DPS generate by default etc etc etc. There were far more and better ways to acheive a proper threat balance than a gimmicky mechanic named "Vengeance"
In TBC threat was an issue, and personally I enjoyed this tanking style as it was actually competing, not "oh vengeance lol free dps" or "oh 500% threat lol free aggro". But that is out of th eway now.
At the beginning of wrath each tank spec received between 90% and 200% additional threat baseline. AoE threat was also massively increased (only warriors had any issues at all throughout the expansion for aoe and none for single target). Less capable tanks struggled as dps caught up a little in 3.3, but that's it.
Then vengeance came along, and despite it supposedly being the fix we still had to go from 300% to 500% in cata for threat.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
"Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
Good is the enemy of great.
Tanks should only be beating you if they vastly out gear you, if the encounter is absolutely horrible for you, or if you're godawful.
What doesn't destroy us, only makes us stranger
As someone that has tanked since Vanilla, I can say I'm not that thrilled with the mechanic. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing those crazy numbers when I pull a bunch of stuff, but I've always felt tanks having high damage output was a bit off. A tanks job isn't to do damage, its to survive and help everyone else survive as well, and Vengence kind of messes with that.
Personally I would just assume see something tied into your main stat ( strength, agility) that increases threat as based on it. It scales with DPS without making damage numbers crazy. I also miss having to choose between threat and survival stats, or even sets. Made things much more interesting imo.
Interestingly, I still have instant LFD as a tank. Even my healer has to wait a few minutes now and then, let alone my DPS.
I wonder if anyone realized that it is mathematically irrelevant for the DPS (threat aside), if an encounter is balanced around mobs having (arbitrary numbers) 4M HP and the tank doing 1M damage via vengeance or mobs having 3M HP and tank doing 0 damage.
I really don't see why exactly it is you are complaining about ... Tanks do good damage... how is that bad for the group? is your epeen hurt coz a tank outdpsed you ? then get more gear/skills and try again...
or you know... reroll/quit...