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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    I want my role and respect back.

  2. #422
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    You gte beaten by a tank, on a single target fight? Then there's something wrong with you...
    And even if it weren't, nothing stopping you to roll tank then? If you can DPS as good as a true dps....

    Basically it's not true, on most boss fights the tanks in our raids end up at the bottom of DPS unless we have someone new in the raid. Sometimes they score a bit higher, but all in all it's the way it used to be and is to be expected.

  3. #423
    this is the first tier, vengenace will be the same amount for the rest of the year while your precious dps will increase exponentionally

  4. #424
    I tought raiding was about teamwork.

    Silly me, tank beating me on dps? /ragequit
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  5. #425
    Scarab Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    this is the first tier, vengenace will be the same amount for the rest of the year while your precious dps will increase exponentionally
    *because vengeance recently got capped*

    If it hadn't vengeance would've scaled as bosses did more and more damage.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    *because vengeance recently got capped*

    If it hadn't vengeance would've scaled as bosses did more and more damage.
    Correct, but AT LEVEL CAP, Vengeance will not reach the cap. The cap was implemented to prevent level 80s from soloing level 90 raids.

  7. #427
    i wonder how many there is tanks in here..?

    but yeah, as a tank, and been since tbc, i love vengence, now we arent just the low down there, with 10% of the dmg done..
    now we can start to see some serious numbers, and compete with the dps if they suck, a really good dps will never have problems with tanks out deepsing them AT ALL, (not on windlord or stoneguard)

    but mostly.. i tend to not compete, and dont care about my maximum dps.. im going for survival instead, if i went for pure dps, the healers wuld hate me..

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  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by razski View Post
    Most of our raids have had the tanks at the bottom of the DPS, I don't know where most of you are going wrong, but just because tanks can keep up now, and sometimes push ahead of the DPS classes, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. After all, they nerfed threat right into the ground and tanks NEED those high numbers now.

    It's just numbers. Ask yourself the real question, why are you so butthurt over a mechanic that brings a boss down quicker than if the tanks dps was low (BC low, now that was painful to be a tank in BC).


    I don't get it, but then I play a healer mostly so topping the dps charts isn't really a priority for me.
    They actually balance the encounters alread counting with the tank dps. There is no free dps from tanks to help bringing down bosses quicker today. The same way they were tuned for the tank's low dps back in vanilla/tbc.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    Uhhh... they didn't nerf threat at all. Unless I'm mistaken, please do point me into that direction.

    Back in Cata I believe they reduced the amount of threat generation and tried to fix it with buffing it by 200%. But if you take a look around at some videos from TBC and Wrath that have the addon "Omen" in plain view, you can see the amount of threat a tank has is so much more than by todays standards.

    You could effectively tank for 30 seconds and be so high on threat, you would not lose it at all the entirety of the fight. Now though, the tanks have to fight harder to maintain high threat. Vengeance plays a huge part in that. Reduce it/remove it and you'll have so many tanks that will be completely unable to maintain threat.

    Take a run thru an old raid with a raid geared tank and a raid geared dps. The dps will be able to take threat fairly easily because vengeance isn't stacking very high and the tanks DPS will be a lot lower.

    The 5x threat generation (used to be 3x) "hotfix" they applied isn't going to be helpful much longer and I'm betting there will be adjustments to the way threat is generated in 5.2.

    GC talking about threat in 2010.

    Article on Threat in 2011

    Search "Threat" in patch 4.1 You'll note that threat bonuses were taken off abilities and put straight into damage. They have never put "bonus threat" back onto those abilities. That's the reason for the buff to 5x threat, instead of 3x threat. Vengeance was supposed to help fix the huge loss to threat generation.
    Last edited by razski; 2013-01-14 at 11:20 AM.

  10. #430
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    If you bring 7 tanks, 3 healers (or 8 tanks, 2 healers) to any fight, you are going to hit Enrage. Even tanks can't hit enrage.

    Sure, tanks do a TON of damage with HIGH vengeance, but blizz can calculate the EXACT amount of dps a tank does, and balance around that. Thus, if suddenly tanks no longer had vengeance, ALL dps would need to do about 15% (In 10 man) or 6% (in 25 man) damage done to beat the enrages.

    Finally, even WITH the 5x threat buff tanks have, without vengeance, most tanks would be in the 20-30k dps range, thus limiting dps's damage to 100-150k.

    Be happy that YOUR damage isn't limited by the TANKS damage, however meager your dps is.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 11:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    this is the first tier, vengenace will be the same amount for the rest of the year while your precious dps will increase exponentionally
    Vengeance will increase, slightly over time, scaling with boss damage. You can expect an increase in roughly 10% vengeance from this tier to the next. Of course, dps will probably be up to 200k next tier on average, and we will probably see 400k dps peaking in T16.
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    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by razski View Post
    Back in Cata I believe they reduced the amount of threat generation and tried to fix it with buffing it by 200%. But if you take a look around at some videos from TBC and Wrath that have the addon "Omen" in plain view, you can see the amount of threat a tank has is so much more than by todays standards.

    You could effectively tank for 30 seconds and be so high on threat, you would not lose it at all the entirety of the fight. Now though, the tanks have to fight harder to maintain high threat. Vengeance plays a huge part in that. Reduce it/remove it and you'll have so many tanks that will be completely unable to maintain threat.

    Take a run thru an old raid with a raid geared tank and a raid geared dps. The dps will be able to take threat fairly easily because vengeance isn't stacking very high and the tanks DPS will be a lot lower.

    The 5x threat generation (used to be 3x) "hotfix" they applied isn't going to be helpful much longer and I'm betting there will be adjustments to the way threat is generated in 5.2.

    GC talking about threat in 2010.

    Article on Threat in 2011

    Search "Threat" in patch 4.1 You'll note that threat bonuses were taken off abilities and put straight into damage. They have never put "bonus threat" back onto those abilities. That's the reason for the buff to 5x threat, instead of 3x threat. Vengeance was supposed to help fix the huge loss to threat generation.
    Not entirely sure which BC you played on with that kind of threat, nor Wrath. Maybe you weren't playing with DPS pushing everything as hard as they could, or you're buying into stories you have been told (I know nothing of you, so I couldn't really say either way). Also remember, back in BC/Wrath Hunter's Misdirect threat stayed on the tank, which was insanely useful and gave Hunters a reason to use it more than just the opening of a fight, or when adds come in.

    What I do know is, threat back then was much more of an issue than it is now, and that isn't going to change. No matter how much people wish to believe that "As tiers roll out more dps less threat!", I'm informing everyone it will not change.

    The threat removed from the few abilities you listed (Self healing from DK's DS and Druid's bonus threat from Lacerate, Swipe and Thrash) did nothing significant to nerf it, at all. The damage was increased, which countered the change in the bonus threat. (I'm sure it was still probably less than original, but it went unnoticed in actual gameplay).

    Things they could do to counter spikey threat: Lessen burst damage. Lessen the threat generation during specific abilities during controlled burst damage. Lessen the amount of threat DPS generate by default etc etc etc. There were far more and better ways to acheive a proper threat balance than a gimmicky mechanic named "Vengeance"

  12. #432
    Scarab Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    In TBC threat was an issue, and personally I enjoyed this tanking style as it was actually competing, not "oh vengeance lol free dps" or "oh 500% threat lol free aggro". But that is out of th eway now.

    At the beginning of wrath each tank spec received between 90% and 200% additional threat baseline. AoE threat was also massively increased (only warriors had any issues at all throughout the expansion for aoe and none for single target). Less capable tanks struggled as dps caught up a little in 3.3, but that's it.

    Then vengeance came along, and despite it supposedly being the fix we still had to go from 300% to 500% in cata for threat.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    *because vengeance recently got capped*

    If it hadn't vengeance would've scaled as bosses did more and more damage.
    The vengeance cap is to stop low lvl toons from going into higher dungeons and cheesing mechanics like the lvl 80 pally that solo'd the first boss in MSV. Vengeance doesn't get up as high or pass tanks life in any raid or anything like that with max lvl toons in current raids. The cap would have never been noticed if it wasn't data mined and commented on.
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  14. #434
    Tanks should only be beating you if they vastly out gear you, if the encounter is absolutely horrible for you, or if you're godawful.

  15. #435
    Mechagnome Synbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    In TBC threat was an issue, and personally I enjoyed this tanking style as it was actually competing, not "oh vengeance lol free dps" or "oh 500% threat lol free aggro". But that is out of th eway now.

    At the beginning of wrath each tank spec received between 90% and 200% additional threat baseline. AoE threat was also massively increased (only warriors had any issues at all throughout the expansion for aoe and none for single target). Less capable tanks struggled as dps caught up a little in 3.3, but that's it.

    Then vengeance came along, and despite it supposedly being the fix we still had to go from 300% to 500% in cata for threat.
    It is a tricky thing trying to fix tank threat over the years. Either tanks have TOO much threat, making tanks kind of lazy. Or tanks have had terrible threat, and dps and healers are pulling off tanks. Who here doesn't remember having to salv priests or druids because the hots could pull threat off a tank(even a geared tank). Its never going to be perfect, and for now dps just have to live with the fact that tanks are topping meters in raids.
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  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    AoE all your daily quest mobs at once, and they go down easier than one at a time.

    Try it.
    A pack of 15 lvl 90 mobs(real mobs, not low health adds) gives my DK around 10-15k AP from Vengeance. In the daily quest areas, you're not likely to pull more than that(I think 18 or 19 is the highest I've managed to get on me at once) without losing some of them due to them resetting. And with a pack like that, with vengeance stacked that high, I can pull Death Strikes crits of over 100k. With no vengeance, if I decide to quest in frost, my Obliterates crit for 175k or more. So yeah, like the other dude said, you really need to be fighting a raid boss or a pack of heroic mobs for vengeance to really be stacking to anything worthwhile.

  17. #437
    As someone that has tanked since Vanilla, I can say I'm not that thrilled with the mechanic. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing those crazy numbers when I pull a bunch of stuff, but I've always felt tanks having high damage output was a bit off. A tanks job isn't to do damage, its to survive and help everyone else survive as well, and Vengence kind of messes with that.

    Personally I would just assume see something tied into your main stat ( strength, agility) that increases threat as based on it. It scales with DPS without making damage numbers crazy. I also miss having to choose between threat and survival stats, or even sets. Made things much more interesting imo.

  18. #438
    Interestingly, I still have instant LFD as a tank. Even my healer has to wait a few minutes now and then, let alone my DPS.

    I wonder if anyone realized that it is mathematically irrelevant for the DPS (threat aside), if an encounter is balanced around mobs having (arbitrary numbers) 4M HP and the tank doing 1M damage via vengeance or mobs having 3M HP and tank doing 0 damage.

  19. #439
    Scarab Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synbaby View Post
    It is a tricky thing trying to fix tank threat over the years. Either tanks have TOO much threat, making tanks kind of lazy. Or tanks have had terrible threat, and dps and healers are pulling off tanks. Who here doesn't remember having to salv priests or druids because the hots could pull threat off a tank(even a geared tank). Its never going to be perfect, and for now dps just have to live with the fact that tanks are topping meters in raids.
    For what it's worth, I liked when spells like salv and MD had a real use. The last time I remember using MD was to help a mob at range go to a tank. Probably a more recent example but halfus 10 came to mind.

  20. #440
    Warchief Skorpionss's Avatar
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    I really don't see why exactly it is you are complaining about ... Tanks do good damage... how is that bad for the group? is your epeen hurt coz a tank outdpsed you ? then get more gear/skills and try again...

    or you know... reroll/quit...

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