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  1. #461
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It's the difference between the main and off tank, the main tank does the top damage, the off tank is at the bottom (since he isn't tanking much); hence the spread. For Shek'zeer, it's the Reaver tank (I believe, anyway) who gets the short stick, for Stone Guard obviously the single boss tank gets shit on (since he has a 90% damage taken debuff). So "average" isn't that useful here.


    Main problem I see that's "unnatural and wrong" (as I said elsewhere too) is that a tank that isn't tanking deals about 10% of a similar-geared DPS spec. But if he is tanking, he can balloon up to 200% of an average DPS'er's DPS (or maybe higher).

    Just IMO, that spread should be a lot closer, perhaps between 40% (when not tanking) up to 80% (when tanking) of a similar-geared DPS spec.

    You are in a fight. You have 1 person yelling at you and slapping you. You have another who is beating the hell out of you. Who do you want to attack first?

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEss View Post
    Vengeance was supposed to be a mechanic that got more people to play tanks when people were complaining about 45 minute queues. If someone rolls a tank 'cause they're under the impression that they have tons of DPS, let 'em. They'll find out how it works soon enough.
    You've already been correct on this. The C2A for dungeons was meant to attract people to tanking, not vengeance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEss View Post
    I have a finite amount of time to play. I'm maxing out my valor each week to get the best tanking gear I can. I have little interest in getting another set of gear unless it's to run with guildies that want to try their hand at tanking. Furthermore, I don't know of any DPS players that say, "Whoops! I forgot I'm doing dailies, better swap my gear! Hell, they even made it so Spirit counted as hit for healers that wanted to switch to casters. Sure, there are other stat priorities between those, but not much. Without reforging, the best healer in my guild can crank out 60k in a heroic by going to Shadow. We've always been the ones to have multiple sets of gear, Stamina, Avoidance, DPS, resist, etc. They stopped with a lot of it (and thank god, my bags couldn't take it any more), but why go back to forcing it on people, because DPS's pride is injured for a few fights in one raid tier?
    When you're capping out Valor Points, you're most likely doing Heroics, in which case... roll on DPS gear. That was hard. Shame you typed up all that just to be told the simplest solution.

    Also note: Vengeance does pretty much crap all vs questing mobs.

    I'd comment on the rest but it's already been covered earlier and your arguments are very tired.

  3. #463
    Stood in the Fire Confucius's Avatar
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    as a tank, I don't care about my personal dps. I have my recount hidden during fights. Only time I take a look at it is when someone dies or we wipe. As long as the boss dies, all is well. Vengeance is good, it gives relative snap aggro at the start of the fight and after that I can focus what I'm suppose to do. I dont wanna go back to the days when aoeing dps whores meant that you spend more time taunting than tanking.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    You've already been correct on this. The C2A for dungeons was meant to attract people to tanking, not vengeance.


    When you're capping out Valor Points, you're most likely doing Heroics, in which case... roll on DPS gear. That was hard. Shame you typed up all that just to be told the simplest solution.

    Also note: Vengeance does pretty much crap all vs questing mobs.

    I'd comment on the rest but it's already been covered earlier and your arguments are very tired.
    Shame that's not the simplest solution. Leaving it like it is would be the simplest solution here. And my arguments are not nearly as tired as the case against Vengeance. If it's tired, more people would be getting it, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

  5. #465
    So, I see people are still whining about this enough that it's still ongoing?

    For any DPS that is crying over vengeance, answer me one question: Were you removed from the raid as DPS in favor of someone in a tank spec with tank gear that would not be the MT/OT (which means they wouldn't be gaining any appreciable AP from vengeance and their DPS would be horrible)?

    If yes, then you must really suck as DPS. Gratz!
    If no, then what are you bitching about? Your spot wasn't taken, and it's not like you can do the tank's job as DPS. Besides, if the Boss dies everyone wins, not just #1 on recount.
    Last edited by Deathgoose; 2013-01-15 at 02:41 AM.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEss View Post
    Shame that's not the simplest solution. Leaving it like it is would be the simplest solution here. And my arguments are not nearly as tired as the case against Vengeance. If it's tired, more people would be getting it, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
    When a mechanic needs to be reworked over and over and over again, it isn't a good mechanic. It's poor design to develop something that needs constant changing.

  7. #467
    How can I be ok with Vengeance? easy, because I'm a tank, and then there's THIS

    Por que odiar si amar es mas dulce? (*^_^*)

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim32 View Post
    It was implemented to stop high-geared DPS always stealing threat. In some fights due to the boss mechanics, the tanks will top DPS. But most of the time DPS will - if they know their role. The threat gen is already boosted 500% but that still isnt enough if your say a newly starting out tank vs someone even half geared.

    -Grim
    If vengeance was created because of high geared DPS then threat is an old and outdated mechanic. Typical Blizzard behavior with shortsighted bandaid fixes.

  9. #469
    For some reason, it won't let me quote, so here is the line from Raiju "Vengeance is an extremely poor mechanic and pretty much offers the reverse of what not-so-capable tanks wanted to get into tanking. Instead of fixing the system blizzard just bump up base threat each tier so now anyone who even read their spells upon dinging (new player POV) can hold agro."

    I'm choosing to focus on what is bolded here, because it seems to be a recurring theme that the tanks didn't need more damage to keep threat, since things worked before. Back in Wrath, tanks were regularly losing threat in the later tiers (when Vengeance was introduced) because the DPS refused to wait for any time to attack. As soon as the boss was pulled, everyone went balls out, and then yelled at the tank for "not holding aggro". Take a look at any run today, even tanks that have a ramp up time, such as paladins, people start going balls to the wall before the first 2 hits of the seal, and the boss turns. As a tank, I'll agree to take away Vengeance if all the DPS is willing to wait 3-5 seconds before they start attacking again, you know, like Vanilla that many people seem to have loved so much. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid, so Blizzard introduced a way that people could continue to play as they were, without making it so people who were playing tanks and enjoying it quit tanking.

    I have been tanking for almost 7 years, and still enjoy the challenges of the role. If I lose Vengeance, then I will refuse to taunt off people that are hitting the boss before 5 seconds into the fight.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by EtherealMists View Post
    For some reason, it won't let me quote, so here is the line from Raiju "Vengeance is an extremely poor mechanic and pretty much offers the reverse of what not-so-capable tanks wanted to get into tanking. Instead of fixing the system blizzard just bump up base threat each tier so now anyone who even read their spells upon dinging (new player POV) can hold agro."

    I'm choosing to focus on what is bolded here, because it seems to be a recurring theme that the tanks didn't need more damage to keep threat, since things worked before. Back in Wrath, tanks were regularly losing threat in the later tiers (when Vengeance was introduced) because the DPS refused to wait for any time to attack. As soon as the boss was pulled, everyone went balls out, and then yelled at the tank for "not holding aggro". Take a look at any run today, even tanks that have a ramp up time, such as paladins, people start going balls to the wall before the first 2 hits of the seal, and the boss turns. As a tank, I'll agree to take away Vengeance if all the DPS is willing to wait 3-5 seconds before they start attacking again, you know, like Vanilla that many people seem to have loved so much. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid, so Blizzard introduced a way that people could continue to play as they were, without making it so people who were playing tanks and enjoying it quit tanking.

    I have been tanking for almost 7 years, and still enjoy the challenges of the role. If I lose Vengeance, then I will refuse to taunt off people that are hitting the boss before 5 seconds into the fight.
    That early threat issue could be be solved by competent Hunters and Rogues using Misdirection and Tricks. (and if Blizz reverted them to their natural form of leaving the threat on the tanks)

  11. #471
    I never understood this complaint. "ONOZ, our tank is out-DPS'ing the DPS!" ....who the fuck cares? You should be worried about how your RAID is performing overall, not that the tank is topping charts. If your tank is doing stupidly high DPS, THAT IS A GOOD THING!!!!! Cripes, fucking ridiculous QQ'ing! Pull your e-peen out of your ear ffs. He's holding agro so you can sit back and complain about him out-DPS'ing you. He's probably also making up for the piss-poor DPS that you're doing while QQ'ing in the first place.

    As far as PvP goes...meh, can't comment as I don't do it. I can't imagine someone surviving long enough to get their vengeance up high enough to be a problem, else they would nerf the fuck out of it like they do everything that works perfectly fine in PvE but some twit happens to abuse in PvP.
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    Except maybe Morgan Freeman. That man could convince God to be an atheist with that voice of his . . .

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    on some fights like windlord and empress p2 it's possible.
    I doubt that. You'd need to take 2.5 times your own health in unmitigated damage per second to reach the cap.

  13. #473
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    How can I be ok with vengeance?

    How can you be ok with people doing anywhere from early firelands dps to early dragon soul dps? I would be really annoyed if I could not carry a group as a tank.

    I don't have a problem with getting a satchel for doing 40% of the group's dps. It's made the job for queuing for satchels so much easier. I actually got my Blue Proto-Drake and Raven Lord last week, and I've probably run close to a thousand heroics (across 4 characters) this expansion.

    As for raids... Well, the encounters are designed around it. That's why people aren't stacking blood dks to kill the boss. Sure, I was annoyed on day 1 that Blood DK was doing all the damage on Stone Guard, but all that matters is that the group is progressing and I'm having fun myself.

  14. #474
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    When a mechanic needs to be reworked over and over and over again, it isn't a good mechanic. It's poor design to develop something that needs constant changing.
    Then we should do away with Deathknights, Vanish and Retribution Paladins!
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I doubt that. You'd need to take 2.5 times your own health in unmitigated damage per second to reach the cap.
    That sounds pretty easy for a tank to take, since they can probably take tons more dmg per second than 2.5 times theire health unmitigated.
    Consider you can pop some CDs and get a 80% dmg mitigation for a few sec while doing a massive AoE tanking that means you can take 4 times your health in mitigated dmg per second and still survive since many healers are spamming heals on you.

  16. #476
    As a pure dps, i have no problems with this, i raid with my team, and if a tank doubles everyone damage, people will know it's because of vengeance.
    Do i mind losing to a tank on a fight with lots of tank damage and huge vengeance scaling? No ofcourse not, we killed the boss right?

    Now if we would be talking single target, i would just feel bad.
    Trylb / Galesin
    Winners never quit, Quitters never win
    Nobody Said It Was Easy

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalamander View Post
    That sounds pretty easy for a tank to take, since they can probably take tons more dmg per second than 2.5 times theire health unmitigated.
    Consider you can pop some CDs and get a 80% dmg mitigation for a few sec while doing a massive AoE tanking that means you can take 4 times your health in mitigated dmg per second and still survive since many healers are spamming heals on you.
    4 times your health reduced by 80% is still 80% of your health per second. For a normal raidequipped tank, that's over 540k DPS.
    If all of the enemies attacks sync up, you actually take 160% of your health all at once.

  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by EtherealMists View Post
    I'm choosing to focus on what is bolded here, because it seems to be a recurring theme that the tanks didn't need more damage to keep threat, since things worked before. Back in Wrath, tanks were regularly losing threat in the later tiers (when Vengeance was introduced) because the DPS refused to wait for any time to attack. As soon as the boss was pulled, everyone went balls out, and then yelled at the tank for "not holding aggro". Take a look at any run today, even tanks that have a ramp up time, such as paladins, people start going balls to the wall before the first 2 hits of the seal, and the boss turns
    As someone who mained paladin tank, no. Our threat was one of if not the easiest to hold in wrath. 96969 was almost as easy as shadowbolt spam, you get the first 4 buttons correct and you were set the entire fight. As mentioned you also had MD's for occasions where aggro may be a risk.

    As a tank, I'll agree to take away Vengeance if all the DPS is willing to wait 3-5 seconds before they start attacking again, you know, like Vanilla that many people seem to have loved so much. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid, so Blizzard introduced a way that people could continue to play as they were, without making it so people who were playing tanks and enjoying it quit tanking.
    You could have put in the 500% threat without vengeance and you would still have no problems holding agro anywhere in wrath. The fact that change went in proved that vengeance didn't work.

    I have been tanking for almost 7 years, and still enjoy the challenges of the role. If I lose Vengeance, then I will refuse to taunt off people that are hitting the boss before 5 seconds into the fight.
    what we all enjoy is entirely our own opinion, but I rarely saw decent tanks in cata lose agro. There was once in a blue moon where say I would get lucky with crits and they miss at the start of ultraxion where we both start on the split second, but that was remedied by a rogue using tricks on the tanks at the start of the fight. If we didn't have a rogue I don't see the issue with people waiting.

  19. #479
    I have my opinion to venegance as well and it aint no good one, but i have some point with your post.

    Even tho i went casual with MOP, yeah i have a raid that raids 2 times a week, but considering the level and dedication i´d say its still casual. So eventho i went casual i still like to cap my valor points or at least get near the cap.
    Once you got one or two peices from LFR you are seriously outgearing heroic instances but still you kinda need to go there for the points. And even if i come back 2 tiers later and would like to do a heroic instance again without people telling me that i should have other business.
    As a mage i cant tank a mob when i aggro it. Well i actually can technically speaking, but neither can i sustain the damage i pulled aggro with when i got someone beating on me, nor can i be sure the healer will get it done. It is not like TBC anymore where every mob oneshotted a clothie.

    What i can do is stay alert with aggro and not pull it of the tank no matter how much i outgear him. But that needs attention which is rare in heroics.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    You could have put in the 500% threat without vengeance and you would still have no problems holding agro anywhere in wrath. The fact that change went in proved that vengeance didn't work.
    Is this really about raiding, or about 5-mans? And, also, isn't it mostly about trash? (Which is what wipes groups in 5-mans most of the time.)

    Until the tank changes in mid 2011 it was easy for a mediocre DPS (like me) to pull trash off a tank in ZA/G. On my spriest it was always wait a beat, mind sear, fade because they were coming for me anyway. On my boomkin it was more like just watch for a while and then hope whatever I hit was already severely pissed off at the tank or someone else who didn't have a threat dump.

    I never, or rarely, ran into that in Wrath, but in Cata I was pulling stuff off tanks all the time, until the 5x change went through.

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