I consider this to be a very real problem. I do not think Blizzard does.
There is only so much vengeance to go around. The tanks aren't really dealing that damage. Here's an example: if you think, say, a blood DK is such hot dps on wind lord, why don't you stack blood DKs?
The answer is obvious- the DK isn't bringing that damage. The meter records it is as his, but it isn't. The meter is lying. There's a fight mechanic- in this case vengeance- that you can choose to put on one person only, or split between more. You can't get any MORE of it, because the boss only puts out so much.
That being said, it's fucking nonsense and should stop. One of my supposed niche's is uncapped multitarget damage. They just gave this to survival hunters, but that decision is probably because hunters needed it. Tanks shouldn't be shitting on dps on meters, because dps actually have to try hard to get numbers. I don't mean they all have super complex aoe rotations- I mean that they are stacked to the gill with dps gear, with dps flasks, burning dps potions, and just absolutely getting waxed because vengeance is worth four of anything. The fact that so much of the damage is brought by the tank also means that there's not much reason to bring a spec that is good at aoe, or to excel at it, because so much of the damage will be brought by the tank under those situations.
I also find the numbers ludicrous in dungeons. When a dungeon is CHALLENGING content- aka, when you are still below full 463 type gear- a tank is your best damage, again, because vengeance. It really emphasizes "daddy tank and mommy healer take the dps kids out for ice cream and loot". In challenge modes, vengeance is also rather important.
I mean, say you roll a rogue today. You start up and level, and you find that in no dungeon are you ever really on the meter. No one wants you, you are useless. You find that you have a role in pvp, to a degree, but in pve you are a tag-along. You get all the way to level 90, and you find that this is STILL true. You actually have to be raiding competitively to have any fucking job in pve at all. Unless we were here to tell you otherwise, you would assume your rogue is just a terrible version of a warrior with a battleground trick to go invisible. You would never suspect anything else.
Vengeance makes dps not feel like dps, and this stretches even into raids. I don't care that it's a limited mechanic or whatever- it's dumb.
Four step solution.
Normalise Tank DPS for all specs.
Adjust defensive abilities accordingly, scaling them off of another stat if needs be.
Boost the threat multiplier to compensate.
DPS get their meters back, and Tanks have to switch to a DPS spec to quest, just like Healers have to.
37 + (3*7) + (3*7)W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/2/3SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
Last time i checked a raid is a team.
And its not like any dps losing a spot to a tank. Tanks do only dps when they have aggro.
Howt he fuck can someone be so egoistic to get emo about tanks being able to do more in raid then just getting slammed into their face.
How does it personally effect you if you are up or below a tank. You are not in competition against tank classes. You are against other dps classes.
I repeat: A dps is not going to lose a spot for a tank so this discussion is kinda senseless.
Iam not arguing that vengeance might be too strong but srsly. If you go emo about it then i dont know what to say.
By default tank specs aren't checked, that link should show them.
My criticism is limited to aoe fights and dungeons, which have a lot of aoe. Also, challenge modes, which are based on the dungeons. Single target (or mostly single target) fights I have no such criticism of.
You need to look at the ranks again and look at each specc on each fight individually rahter then then just looking at the top 10 which noramlly shows Tanks, Arcance mages, Aff locks and rogues.
And if you think tank dps gets pushed by dailies then you obv never played a tank or dont know shit about vengeance.
Little hint: 5k vengeance from questmobs doesnt do shit.
Originally Posted by Blizzard EntertainmentOriginally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
I'm not. I think it's a fairly slipshod and weak solution and a poor gameplay mechanic in many ways.
Now...the problem it is designed to solve is very real. DPS damage does scale a lot better for various reasons and that can cause issues with threat as an example.
But I think there are better solutions that could be used.
I guess some less AoE/cleaving could be taken away from tanks without compromising anything.
If you have a tank, who tops dps charts - your damage dealers have l2p issues.
Take a look. And think about it rather then spouting "AMG HOW CAN YOU BE MAD OF TANK DPS??"
I'm truly at a loss for words at why have extra damage during a boss fight can even be remotely considered a bad thing.
DPS pride? Suck it up sally, you have the easiest job out of the 3.
If a healer dies, it's usually going to cause a wipe.
If a tank dies, it's most definitely going to cause a wipe.
If a dps dies, not all is lost.
During one of my guilds Wind Lord kills, our mage decided it would be an amazing idea to stand in the whirling blade and die a horrible death. Our RL told us to just keep going, and we killed him with 2 seconds left on the enrage.
The whole point i'm trying to make, is that DPS are, 90% of the time, EXPENDABLE. In groups you come at a dime a dozen, and are easily replaceable.
Walking with a friend in the dark is better than walking alone in the light.
So I chose the path of the Ebon Blade, and not a day passes where i've regretted it.
I am eternal, I am unyielding, I am UNDYING.
I am Zethras, and my blood will be the end of you.
No really, wanting tanks to do ass damage, which hinders your raid's progress, is taking selfishness to a whole new level.
I just think back to when heroic elegon was actual progression and 6 sparks were needed to be killed each round and I think - "where would be be without those tank sometimes lol". Also I feel like the only people really crying about this are probably the ones that are used to get a pat on the back for their dps.
Every role has it's purpose and respect. Right now, a dps role is the least satisfying of all cause your tanks out dps you asap some little adds hit them.