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  1. #61
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I guess I'll weigh in with the apparently unusual but sensible view that if the boss goes down and everyone is happy with everyone else's performance I honestly could not care less about who's doing the most damage. That's from a shadow priest. So there's that.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    No really, wanting tanks to do ass damage, which hinders your raid's progress, is taking selfishness to a whole new level.



    Really the only thing I can conclude is that they don't know shit about vengeance. Vengeance while doing anything other than fighting a raid boss or an absolutely huge pack of heroic 5-man / challenge mode mobs is irrelevant because it doesn't stack to anything worthwhile.
    Never talked about 5man. Please try to keep up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Tank can do dps. I am not against it. In WotLK, tanks did good dps, about 50% or more of what the dps were doing. But a tank shouldn't out dps a dps. Which they are right now. A tank will out dps a dps asap a couple of adds or more then one boss is invovled and its really stupid.
    No. Just no. So one tank makes it into the top 10 of the damage meter, or is top on one or two fights. How does that take anything at all away from the DPS? The tank was higher because of a tanking mechanic, so just exclude him or her from your comparisons. Lets say Sally McTankerton was #1 on the damage meter and you Waterisbest are #2 ... Congratulations!!! You're still the #1 DPS! Nobody is going to think less of you because a fight mechanic made the tank deal a bunch of damage, you're still the #1 DPS. Nothing was taken from you.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I guess I'll weigh in with the apparently unusual but sensible view that if the boss goes down and everyone is happy with everyone else's performance I honestly could not care less about who's doing the most damage. That's from a shadow priest. So there's that.
    Nothing wrong with your thinking. Nothing wrong with being ok with vengeance either. But we played this game 8 years without vengeance and how did it went? Great. So now all of a sudden why to we need it? When we can have far better solutions to threat problems rather then undermining what dps do best, deal damage.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    No. Just no. So one tank makes it into the top 10 of the damage meter, or is top on one or two fights. How does that take anything at all away from the DPS? The tank was higher because of a tanking mechanic, so just exclude him or her from your comparisons. Lets say Sally McTankerton was #1 on the damage meter and you Waterisbest are #2 ... Congratulations!!! You're still the #1 DPS! Nobody is going to think less of you because a fight mechanic made the tank deal a bunch of damage, you're still the #1 DPS. Nothing was taken from you.
    When will people learn I'm not talking about just the top 10 on every fight? God damnit people, there are ranks below the top 10.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...10111111000000

    Have a LOOK at this chart.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Never talked about 5man. Please try to keep up.
    Can you try to keep up please before you tell me to? This thread isn't entirely about you, there are other people participating in it and they have brought up 5-mans and daily quests. That's what I was addressing. Thank you. The issue of raids has already been addressed as well.

  6. #66
    why does it matter if u have one-2 more dps'ers or not? i like when my tank is woppin everyone on the dps meters =P

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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Nothing wrong with your thinking. Nothing wrong with being ok with vengeance either. But we played this game 8 years without vengeance and how did it went? Great. So now all of a sudden why to we need it? When we can have far better solutions to threat problems rather then undermining what dps do best, deal damage.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:35 PM ----------



    When will people learn I'm not talking about just the top 10 on every fight? God damnit people, there are ranks below the top 10.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...10111111000000

    Have a LOOK at this chart.
    So what? The argument still applies, even more so below the top 10. If nobody cares that a tank out DPSes a top DPS spec due to a tank mechanic on a couple fights, they'd care even less if a tank outDPSed a mid-tier DPS spec.

  8. #68
    Pandaren Monk Zethras's Avatar
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    Plus another thing I thought of, why in the name of all things unholy and desecrated do you even care what your numbers are at the end of the day? The whole group is aimed at one goal, to kill bosses. Who gives a flying f*ck who did how much dps as long as the boss dies?

    A boss kill is a boss kill.

    The guild gets progression.

    You get shiny purples.

    Everyone goes home satisfied.
    Walking with a friend in the dark is better than walking alone in the light.
    So I chose the path of the Ebon Blade, and not a day passes where i've regretted it.
    I am eternal, I am unyielding, I am UNDYING.
    I am Zethras, and my blood will be the end of you.

  9. #69
    Sorry, tanks top dps only on 3 fights (windlord, empress, and one tank on lei shi who probably got to incredible veng due to taking too many hits).
    On fights other than that i haven't had problems with out dpsing tanks, and if they do deal more dmg on certain fights imo it's fine.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Zethras View Post
    Plus another thing I thought of, why in the name of all things unholy and desecrated do you even care what your numbers are at the end of the day? The whole group is aimed at one goal, to kill bosses. Who gives a flying f*ck who did how much dps as long as the boss dies?

    A boss kill is a boss kill.

    The guild gets progression.

    You get shiny purples.

    Everyone goes home satisfied.
    Pretty sure most of the people who play WoW give a fuck. That's why there is a certain DPS requirement for every fight and Blizz keeps buffing/nerfing dps of speccs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  11. #71
    Vengeance was created in a time in WoW-life when tanks geared only for defense (Dodge, Parry, Stamina, and possibly Mastery depending on the class).

    I will use a Prot Pally for my example, as I have one and have played one for several years.

    In Cata, the gearing priority for a Prot Pally was Mastery > Dodge = Parry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hit = Expertise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Haste = Crit

    Or to put it simply, any gear that had Hit, Expertise, Haste or Crit was crap. The reasoning behind this was that, in order to survive longer and put less strain on the healers, you had to max out your defenses. By stacking Mastery, Dodge and Parry, you could reach the magical 102.4% avoidance, and never take full damage from any non-magical boss attack. You would either take a blocked hit (40% less damage), dodge or parry (100% less damage).

    In this scenario, Tank DPS (and therefore THREAT) would remain essentially the same from the beginning of the expansion until the end of the expansion (with only nominal gains in Strength; we are talking about less then 500 Strength difference from 4.0 until 5.0). DPS would gear more Haste, Crit and Mastery, and gain it faster. DPS dps would skyrocket while tank dps would stay the same. Threat was a real issue. 3 or 4 lucky crits in a row, and a DPS that was at the bottom of the threat meter would suddenly pull off of the tank with almost no warning. If that DPS was melee, the boss would spin and most likely OHKO not only the lucky dps, but if the boss had a cleave or a cone AoE, the boss would OHKO about half the DPS and wipe the raid.

    Vengeance was introduced so that tanks could hold threat against a lucky crit streak, and still feel like they helped down the boss. Unfortunately, this gearing ideal created a very boring experience for tanks. You felt like there was very little you could actively do to help the raid or improve your own performance or survivability. Quite literally, a Prot Pally could set up several of those bobbing bird desk ornaments, and walk away from the computer for 5 minutes, make dinner, call up a booty call, take a shower, come back, and the boss would be one hit away from dieing. This drove away newer tanks, and made LFD/LFR queues longer.




    Fast forward to MoP, and that same Prot Pally now sees a piece of gear with Dodge/Parry, Dodge/Mastery, or Parry/Mastery, and they will shard it faster then you can blink. The change in tanking philosophies from Blizz meant that if you wanted to survive, you need "DPS" stats. You need to DPS in order to survive. Haste is one of the best stats for Prot Pallies right now because of how much control it gives you in your survivability. Tank DPS matters now, because if the tank does not DPS, they will be killed by the boss. It is not so much how much they DPS, but if they do not perform their rotation, they will die.







    TL;DR: Gearing has changed. And most importantly, IT IS THE FREAKING BEGINNING OF THE EXPANSION!!!!!!! Tank DPS will not go up as fast as DPS dps. Look back at previous expansions, and how much DPS dps changed from the start of the expansion until the end of the expansion.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Sorry, tanks top dps only on 3 fights (windlord, empress, and one tank on lei shi who probably got to incredible veng due to taking too many hits).
    On fights other than that i haven't had problems with out dpsing tanks, and if they do deal more dmg on certain fights imo it's fine.
    My point is not about how they out dps on 3 fights. It's how tanking speccs are doing more dps then half the dps speccs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  13. #73
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    And then patch the threat multiplier every new contnent or addon?
    Have it scale with item level if needs be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    And if you think tank dps gets pushed by dailies then you obv never played a tank or dont know shit about vengeance.
    DW Blood DK from Wrath to current content*, and by "Normalise Tank DPS for all specs" I mean put Tank DPS down to about 50% of the lowest DPSers DPS.

    *Don't start.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    My gear and my dps are fine and pretty amazing for the specc I play. Doesn't change the fact that tanks are out dpsing dps on half of the fights and it can be 100% in 5.2 cause pretty much every fight has alot of boss/adds involved.
    If your tanks are outdpsing your raid on half of the fights, that's a failure on your raid's part.

    Perhaps you never heard the design intent behind vengeance. It's there to allow tanks to keep up with DPS threat through the tiers. Next tier, DPS classes will be putting out a lot more damage and tanks a lot less. The tier after that? DPS will pull even further ahead. The only fight that tanks will be topping on in the coming tiers will be fights with a lot of tank damage or mechanics that favor tanks. You shouldn't use the current tier as a benchmark, because it certainly is not.

    So, seriously, stop bitching. This is a temporary "problem." It will almost certainly be fixed by the next tier since that's kind of, you know, the design intent.

  15. #75
    Pandaren Monk Zethras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Pretty sure most of the people who play WoW give a fuck. That's why there is a certain DPS requirement for every fight and Blizz keeps buffing/nerfing dps of speccs.
    Seeing as you only seem to read parts of a quote, I shall point to the important part of the quote with bolded, with bold, italic, underlines, and a larger font size:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zethras View Post
    Plus another thing I thought of, why in the name of all things unholy and desecrated do you even care what your numbers are at the end of the day? The whole group is aimed at one goal, to kill bosses. Who gives a flying f*ck who did how much dps as long as the boss dies?

    A boss kill is a boss kill.

    The guild gets progression.

    You get shiny purples.

    Everyone goes home satisfied.
    Of course dps being at the required dps for a fight is important. But as long as the boss dies, who cares where it came from?

    A kill, is a kill.
    Walking with a friend in the dark is better than walking alone in the light.
    So I chose the path of the Ebon Blade, and not a day passes where i've regretted it.
    I am eternal, I am unyielding, I am UNDYING.
    I am Zethras, and my blood will be the end of you.

  16. #76
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Vengeance while doing anything other than fighting a raid boss or an absolutely huge pack of heroic 5-man / challenge mode mobs is irrelevant because it doesn't stack to anything worthwhile.
    AoE all your daily quest mobs at once, and they go down easier than one at a time.

    Try it.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
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  17. #77
    Yes. Nerf tankdps to the ground to make it even less attractive for new players, and it's not like many players even tank as it is.
    That will show those LFR/LFD queues who's the boss.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim32 View Post
    Must have been some bad healers. No seriously. BM tanks get three heals. On my 490 BM tank I heal for a crit heal at 100k - followed by 15 sec CD. I have seen many healers in MoP who suck at their class - how do I know if I dont play one? I see the same spec & class, with less gear out healing them by 30%+.

    So yes, a BM can do that, but the healers must REALLY suck.

    -Grim
    Also absorbs do count to healing done. He will put a absorb shield that scales with vengeance on players after he has done X damage, an with the sick amount of vengeance on Windlord this happens every 3 seconds.

  19. #79
    The Patient BaP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    ppl like you should be banned for commenting things they dont know.


    If you would ever outDPS tanks in wind lord or empress that means only 1 thing - your tank died after 60 sec of the fight.
    I play a war tank, if I am beating you in dps its your fault, either you are playing a sub-par spec or ( and this is my feeling) you just can't play !!!

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    AoE all your daily quest mobs at once, and they go down easier than one at a time.

    Try it.
    I do, and Vengeance still doesn't play very much into it. Vengeance requires something significant to be eating your face before it gets to the point where you're putting out more damage than a middle of the pack DPS role, and it requires something truly monstrous before you can be topping the meter. There is a mod out there to track your vengeance stack, you'd be surprised by how little it stacks in most situations or for how little of a period of time it stacks decently.

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