Page 6 of 26 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
16
... LastLast
  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    What are you going to bitch about when Vengeance isn't enough to make tanks top the meters in the next tier?
    I'll be cross that they started us in what amounts to greens that they colored purple. I'll also be a bit shocked, because that damage difference on aoe fights is pretty goddamned huge.
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_Lord...10111111000000

    This is REGULAR wind lord. While reg modes aren't relevant to most tight dps discussions, this isn't one of those. The top tank is wildly ahead of everyone- the lowest tank is ALSO. Reg wind lord is only relevant because it's mostly a real aoe fight with a section of single target that, despite being like half the fight, doesn't even allow for dps to catch up. If it was phase 1 for all or most of the fight, or if a challenging fight needed that, you can see how much of a huge and unneeded stroking the tanks are getting.

    The tier after that? What are you going to do when you get more DPS out of the raid by solo-tanking a fight and bringing in a DPS that puts out more damage than a tank?
    What am I going to do if need more damage dealers and that means I bring more damage dealers? Uh, nothing, because that's fucking how it should be. It says Damage Fucking Dealer on my goddamned sword I have to click for no reason.

    However, your point isn't quite valid- if a fight can be solo tanked, then the vengeance goes to the one tank. It isn't lost. If it's two tanked, then the vengeance is distributed. Normally how many tanks isn't determined by making so many mobs that the tanks can't keep up, it's determined by needing multiple mobs tanked apart, or picked up, or a stacking debuff, or many other mechanics.

    But obviously if you add dps to a fight and your damage goes up, that's good.

    Because that's what's coming. That's how vengeance is designed. It's a catchup mechanic. It's strong at the start of an expansion, but it gets progressively weaker as our gear improves, while DPS gets progressively stronger as their gear improves.
    It needs to be there now. It needs to be there in low level 5 mans that your alt runs, because those suck as dps too. You can't even remotely matter throughout this entire game's pve unless you have a tank spec... until you are max level and in solid gear. And even then, you have fights like the junk we link, where vengeance just explodes someone's apparent contribution meaninglessly and without reason.

  2. #102
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Dat Ingurlund, brrrrrap
    Posts
    5,019
    Quote Originally Posted by Elhorn the Doomchicken View Post
    Still waiting for OP's armory link...
    Why, and I frown basing your opinion on someone's armory.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/2/2
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Legendary Overlooked

  3. #103
    As someone who plays both a tank and dps in a raid you are doing something wrong on a fight if tank is beating you in dps. UNLESS, the fight caters to the tanks ability to generate dps. Emperor, Dodge = 500k attack periodically and the ability to run a single target rotation without ever stopping to change targets. Or AE fights where the tank is able to AE without regard to what mob its hitting. Tanks should only beat someone forcing a low dps spec or someone that is under geared in fights where the tanks dps abilities are favored. This is like saying Gaurdians is unfair because Cleave specs and DoT specs do way more damage than those without that ability. Some aspects of the game favor certain specs and classes sometimes. Its been going on for years. If you are loosing to a tank on everyfight or more than half, its you. Not some vengeance mechanic thats causing your low dps. Looking at WoL isn't going to help either, you have no idea how they got that DPS, there are *gasp* gimmicks that occur to allow for certain parses out there.

    Cry all you want, but its you and your gear or a fight that favors the tanks mechanic. Gear makes a large difference, which at the start when I out geared everyone in my raid fairly well I did out dps them on certain fights, they caught up in gear and I'm back to where most tanks are at on the chart. As DPS I can't think of many fights beyond a two maybe where I loose to a tank on DPS and thats normally mechanic related. If you are in a fucked up DPS spec that does shit all damage your going to be on the bottom, sorry Blizz isn't catering to you one spec in 3 dps spec scenario, but get over it suck it up and do whats right for your raid you selfish asshats.

  4. #104
    i agree that vengeance is fucking retarded now and do not understand how blizzards can be so blind.
    LFR, 1st boss - both tanks sitting at 250k dps, nearest dps - 160k. bullshit

  5. #105
    Those of you who uses World of Logs to back up your "Tanks are doing too much DPS" statements need a wake-up-call. You forget that those tanks who set these World Ranks are in crazy Heroic Guilds, and I can guarantee you that the tanks are using Full DPS HC gear, which makes them reach these crazy numbers.
    Knock it out and let the game go it's way.
    Last edited by OriginalsWoW; 2013-01-12 at 08:36 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Why, and I frown basing your opinion on someone's armory.
    Because it shows that the person actually has somewhat of an idea what he's talking about ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    As someone who plays both a tank and dps in a raid you are doing something wrong on a fight if tank is beating you in dps. UNLESS, the fight caters to the tanks ability to generate dps. Emperor, Dodge = 500k attack periodically and the ability to run a single target rotation without ever stopping to change targets. Or AE fights where the tank is able to AE without regard to what mob its hitting. Tanks should only beat someone forcing a low dps spec or someone that is under geared in fights where the tanks dps abilities are favored. This is like saying Gaurdians is unfair because Cleave specs and DoT specs do way more damage than those without that ability. Some aspects of the game favor certain specs and classes sometimes. Its been going on for years. If you are loosing to a tank on everyfight or more than half, its you. Not some vengeance mechanic thats causing your low dps. Looking at WoL isn't going to help either, you have no idea how they got that DPS, there are *gasp* gimmicks that occur to allow for certain parses out there.

    Cry all you want, but its you and your gear or a fight that favors the tanks mechanic. Gear makes a large difference, which at the start when I out geared everyone in my raid fairly well I did out dps them on certain fights, they caught up in gear and I'm back to where most tanks are at on the chart. As DPS I can't think of many fights beyond a two maybe where I loose to a tank on DPS and thats normally mechanic related. If you are in a fucked up DPS spec that does shit all damage your going to be on the bottom, sorry Blizz isn't catering to you one spec in 3 dps spec scenario, but get over it suck it up and do whats right for your raid you selfish asshats.
    basically this

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldoran View Post
    i agree that vengeance is fucking retarded now and do not understand how blizzards can be so blind.
    LFR, 1st boss - both tanks sitting at 250k dps, nearest dps - 160k. bullshit
    if you're talking about stoneguards, never seen that. Unless we're discussing windlord.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    ppl like you should be banned for commenting things they dont know.


    If you would ever outDPS tanks in wind lord or empress that means only 1 thing - your tank died after 60 sec of the fight.
    hmmm, check out this chart: average DPS on Grand Empress Skek'zeer Those bottom four lines are Prot Warrior, Prot Pally, Blood DK and Guardian Druid. Only tanking class that is on average pulling more DPS the 'true DPS' classes is the brewmaster monk, and then only beating a few DPS specs (balance druid, shadow priest and elemental shaman).

    Granted, Windlord is messy and yea tanks are in the middle of the pack DPS-wise. I suspect that this is due to the nature of the fight and not vengeance.

    Finally, this chart is the average DPS across all bosses. Bottom five lines are for the tanks, and the only class that on average that was doing worse then a tank class was arcane mage, and that was prior to the love they got in patch 5.1.

    Again, like others have said...if tanks are beating you in DPS, you are probably doing something wrong. And instead of gripping here you might be better served by reading icy-veins or elitist jerks class guides
    "You give us money, we give you content" -- Russ Brown, VP of Developement for Rift
    Something some MMO companies seem to have forgotten.

    Golyr - Faeblight / Golgarax - Argent Dawn

  8. #108
    While it is a bit out of whack on some fights, a tank not taking hits hits like a hungry, angry baby. This means that you can't just fill up a raid with tanks and call it a day - actual dps are in zero danger of losing spots over vengeance. That's how.

    I'm actually more curious how so many people can be ok with having lower raid output and/or fail to get a boss down just so they can look at a neatly ordered "damage done" list in a third party addon.

  9. #109
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Dat Ingurlund, brrrrrap
    Posts
    5,019
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    If you are in a fucked up DPS spec that does shit all damage your going to be on the bottom, sorry Blizz isn't catering to you one spec in 3 dps spec scenario, but get over it suck it up and do whats right for your raid you selfish asshats.
    They are, though. See the new talent trees and Blizzard balancing forcing a smaller gap between best and worst DPS spec.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/2/2
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Legendary Overlooked

  10. #110
    If it's a fight that everyone knows is tank friendly then why would you feel insecure about where you ranked on the recount meters. Some fights are tank friendly for a reason ( to prevent the heals and DPS from bitching about people never rolling tanks because we will not unless it interests us as much as it does you to raid). after many bosses have been created by Blizz and destroyed by us they need to add creative mechanics to make one boss differ from another. So obviously every once in a while a tank will have a more prevalent role in the demise of said boss. However, if Blizz does listen to you I propose my idea that I have waited for forever, my Prot Pally DWing Sheilds because weapons are of no use on "Damage Soakers" (laced with Sarcasm).

  11. #111
    Have any of you played a Tank back in the day they did nearly no damage at all? I didn't because it was really boring. You coudn't even quest alone. Now tanks do some damage and you hate them? I'm glad they actually fixed the design.

    Do you really want to go back to watching Omen all fight? Waiting 5 stacks of sunder armor (not literally speaking) because the tank can't do burst? Pull agro every single time you AOE?

    I'm a DPS and I'm extremely happy about vengeange. I don't need other people to be nerfed just to feel like I'm doing a good job. Raiding is about a group, not toping the meters.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post

    When will people learn I'm not talking about just the top 10 on every fight? God damnit people, there are ranks below the top 10.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...10111111000000

    Have a LOOK at this chart.
    Umm, and what do you want us to take away from this chart?

    This chart shows 'Spec Scores' for all classes. Which is a derived statistic.

    A better chart might be this chart which shows the actual average DPS values for each spec.
    "You give us money, we give you content" -- Russ Brown, VP of Developement for Rift
    Something some MMO companies seem to have forgotten.

    Golyr - Faeblight / Golgarax - Argent Dawn

  13. #113
    Banned Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Jaina Proudmoore's side. Always and forever.
    Posts
    22,172
    Quote Originally Posted by JoaoPinga View Post
    Have any of you played a Tank back in the day they did nearly no damage at all? I didn't because it was really boring. You coudn't even quest alone. Now tanks do some damage and you hate them? I'm glad they actually fixed the design.

    Do you really want to go back to watching Omen all fight? Waiting 5 stacks of sunder armor (not literally speaking) because the tank can't do burst? Pull agro every single time you AOE?

    I'm a DPS and I'm extremely happy about vengeange. I don't need other people to be nerfed just to feel like I'm doing a good job. Raiding is about a group, not toping the meters.
    I think you are strawmanning here.

  14. #114
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,133
    Quote Originally Posted by thurizas View Post
    average DPS on Grand Empress Skek'zeer Those bottom four lines are Prot Warrior, Prot Pally, Blood DK and Guardian Druid. Only tanking class that is on average pulling more DPS the 'true DPS' classes is the brewmaster monk, and then only beating a few DPS specs (balance druid, shadow priest and elemental shaman)...

    Finally, this chart is the average DPS across all bosses. Bottom five lines are for the tanks, and the only class that on average that was doing worse then a tank class was arcane mage, and that was prior to the love they got in patch 5.1.
    It's the difference between the main and off tank, the main tank does the top damage, the off tank is at the bottom (since he isn't tanking much); hence the spread. For Shek'zeer, it's the Reaver tank (I believe, anyway) who gets the short stick, for Stone Guard obviously the single boss tank gets shit on (since he has a 90% damage taken debuff). So "average" isn't that useful here.


    Main problem I see that's "unnatural and wrong" (as I said elsewhere too) is that a tank that isn't tanking deals about 10% of a similar-geared DPS spec. But if he is tanking, he can balloon up to 200% of an average DPS'er's DPS (or maybe higher).

    Just IMO, that spread should be a lot closer, perhaps between 40% (when not tanking) up to 80% (when tanking) of a similar-geared DPS spec.

  15. #115
    Brewmaster Csunforgiven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Spirestone
    Posts
    1,355
    Quote Originally Posted by BaP View Post
    Than learn to play, of the tanks are beating you on most fights its your fault and you are just not playing to your full potential !!!!
    There are fights where tanks will legitimately beat a DPS. Feng comes to mind especially, with his gimmick mechanics.

    @OP, as a Tank, I think vengeance is just fine. Hell, even as a DPS I think its fine, because I can outplay every tank I've ever gone up against /shrug.

  16. #116
    Looking through this thread, I'm seeing lots of whining and bitching about vengeance and tank DPS, but no real alternatives. Until someone comes up with one, all the moaning in the world isn't going to change a thing.

    There seems to be four main options at the moment:

    1) Leave vengeance as it is. Some DPS get butt-hurt because tanks are all over 'em on the meteres, while other DPS just don't care.
    2) Remove vengeance and boost tank damage to make up for the reduced threat. Great, now tanks are gods in PvP and *all* PvPers moan like hell.
    3) Remove vengeance and boost tank threat significantly, so that DPS never pull aggro. Cool, now the tank's AFK most of the fight because it doesn't matter, and suddenly there's no tanks around.
    4) Remove vengeance and boost tank threat significantly on specific single-target abilities. Now we're back to "OMG, some idiot over-aggroed the wrong mob and pulled it into the healers, now they're all dead". Some tanks find this too stressful and stop tanking.

    Personally I'd prefer option 1 thanks; I don't give a monkey's who's top of the meters, I'm just happy that hey, this week I did more DPS than usual - hopefully I've got better!

    By the way, in case you didn't notice - all 4 of those have been tried before.

  17. #117
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Dat Ingurlund, brrrrrap
    Posts
    5,019
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Because it shows that the person actually has somewhat of an idea what he's talking about?
    Or you can judge what they say on the evidence they provide, rather than who says it.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/2/2
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Legendary Overlooked

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Main problem I see that's "unnatural and wrong" (as I said elsewhere too) is that a tank that isn't tanking deals about 10% of a similar-geared DPS spec. But if he is tanking, he can balloon up to 200% of an average DPS'er's DPS (or maybe higher).

    Just IMO, that spread should be a lot closer, perhaps between 40% (when not tanking) up to 80% (when tanking) of a similar-geared DPS spec.
    On which of the fight outside of windlord does that happen ?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Zethras View Post
    I'm truly at a loss for words at why have extra damage during a boss fight can even be remotely considered a bad thing.

    DPS pride? Suck it up sally, you have the easiest job out of the 3.

    If a healer dies, it's usually going to cause a wipe.

    If a tank dies, it's most definitely going to cause a wipe.

    If a dps dies, not all is lost.

    During one of my guilds Wind Lord kills, our mage decided it would be an amazing idea to stand in the whirling blade and die a horrible death. Our RL told us to just keep going, and we killed him with 2 seconds left on the enrage.

    The whole point i'm trying to make, is that DPS are, 90% of the time, EXPENDABLE. In groups you come at a dime a dozen, and are easily replaceable.
    Imagine for a moment that DPS had better survivability than tanks.


    There, you now have your answer.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    I think you are strawmanning here.
    He really isn't.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •