Have you done any other bosses than Windlord?
I'm sorry mate, but if tanks are winning on half the fights... Someone is doing something wrong.
Oh, I may be on the side of the angels, but don't think for one second that I am one of them.
I am not asking and I don't think people are asking to reduce them to utter crap. People are asking to take them down a notch so DPS suddenly lose their purpose and feel alienated and lose interest in their class. There are many factors why DPS do lower damage then tanks but to say *Tanks are fine, just stfu and L2P* is not a valid argument here. We're all adults here I hope, I would think we could reason Tanks need a minor nerf(Vengeance or whatever) but not destroy them.
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There's a pretty simple reason why you see tanks out-DPSing people. Vengeance is designed so that a tank can do DPS as if they had a whole lot of gear even when they don't. Vengeance for tanks will not scale with gear nearly as well DPS gear for DPS scales. A full raid of geared DPS will generally be out-DPSing their tank by a wide margin on any fight that isn't super extreme AoE, such as normal Wind Lord. As the expansion goes on and people get much more gear (even those who only do LFR), DPS will, in general, outpace the tanks.
The purpose of this is pretty simple: so undergeared tanks will be able to have a chance against holding threat against overzealous, and much more geared DPS. It's a 'problem' (insomuch that it's even a problem, Blizzard obviously tunes bosses with the knowledge that tanks will be doing a certain amount of DPS, so it's not like it's breaking the game at all) that will fix itself over time.
If you're angry that a tank is outDPSing you... well, that's a silly thing to be angry about.
At least this butthurt DPS whinning about having a tank do more numbers than him admits thats his sole problem with veng. Most of them try to make up other excuses as to why it should be removed because they dont want to admit they feelings of insecurity tied directly to what recount or skada says.
If it's that big of a deal to your e-peen, why not simply ignore when a tank is above you and simply judge your worth against the other DPSers in the raid instead?
Boss fights these days are balanced with tank's contributed DPS in mind. You can't simply remove veng without retuning every boss in the game and also it would just go back to the world of ludicrously high threat modifiers, otherwise tanks couldn't hold agro. Vengeance was a brilliant solution to a well known problem of tank threat scaling against dps damage scaling. If you can't stand someone being higher than you in skada or recount, that is YOUR problem, not something the game needs to be redesigned about.
Last edited by Dasani; 2013-01-12 at 09:09 PM.
I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.
At this point, I can't help but think that OP is complaining just for the sake of complaining.
Waterbeist - what is your actual reason for not liking Vengeance?
All you've told us so far is that you somehow lose "pride and respect", but is that really so? It's not like you're getting booted from a raid and another tank is being brought in.
why do you even care about tanks doing more dps than dps?
ok, this sentence can sound weird because the roles are not really respecting their place, but i'm pretty sure i never missed any thread where you QQed about mages spreading combustion on Halfus (BoT), rogues going crazy with aoe on Garalon (HoF) or anything like that.
and, expecting the obvious and wrong answer "but that's just one fight where i can be op i want to be op everywhere", good job at predicting the whole expansion from the first tier. why aren't you working at Blizzard and putting such a great talent at use then? oh right, probably because you cannot predict anything and you shouldn't start complaining about something before you can even see how it works on the long term, which is the most common problem of these threads..
edit: one more thing that many people seem to be ignoring, even if it's been said... you can have 1-2 people building decent vengeance in a raid, so...
Q: why would anyone roll a dps class?
A: because you can't kill a boss* with only tanks and healers, derp
*waiting for captain obvious to point out "you can kill bosses in normal deadmines with a level 90 healer and tank"
Last edited by Shuyin; 2013-01-12 at 09:24 PM.
vengeance plus the need to AOE everything.
It is also amplified this tier because DPS does a ton of off-target stuff.... just a bunch of really weird encounters where the tanks can continually dps but the dps have to switch targets a lot.
I will say, in LFD, I almost always do double the dps as any of the dps, but that is just Bears having spammable AOE
2) Blizzard is capping it at max health, which, aside from extreme situations, will never be seen either
3) A competent dps, gear for gear, on just about every fight, should not only be outdoing a tank, they should be outdoing them by a lot.
4) AoE dps is the only place tanks can really surge over regular dps, because only a handful of classes have good aoe abilities, like Monks and Destro locks, but thats why we shouldn't concern ourselves too much with AoE dps on trash packs.
Until I see a video of 20 tanks and 5 healers downing Sha, I remain unconvinced
Truthfully if tank dps went back to what it used to be before vengeance gave us the ability to do somewhat decent dps I wouldn't even want to tank anymore . Vengeance is what makes tanking fun for me. I like being able to pump out some decent numbers and as many people have pointed out unless its a fight like windlord. The dps in our raids always beat the tanks, and your doing some thing wrong if you can't beat your tanks dps on a majority of fights by a significant margin.
I got about 3 pages in, skipped the rest. Too much whining, not enough practicing. This is coming from a Brewmaster 16/16HM complete that ranks regularly top 20. Am I the best? Of course not. Does my experience lend credibility? Yes.
Have we seen an armory from the OP yet? Curious to know how much experience he has, the guild progression, etc. It does weigh into these conversations for the sole fact that there are countless thousands of people that are bad at this game.
Fights are tuned with Vengeance in mind. There are some fights in this game where enrage timers would not be met in this current tier without vengeance, until you have 5.2 gear.
Goodness, blizzard already did nerf vengeance significantly since the expansion started. I could understand the whining if they hadn't nerfed vengeance a great deal already but this is just a bit silly. I see our dps try harder when they lose to the tank instead of whining about it.
I seriously do not see any problem with this at all. None. So what if tanks are beating DPS on a few fights because of certain mechanics, tanks are NOT going to replace DPSers. Imagine if you had a 25 man raid with 6-7 healers and the rest tanks. Only 1-2 of those tanks are going to get anywhere near enough vengeance to be able to pull the numbers they do right now, the rest are going to be so far down the list on DPS that you will hit enrage on every single fight.
I'd also be willing to bet on a lot of those meters with tanks way high that they are wearing some (if not all) DPS gear to push themselves higher if their healers can keep up. I know we did a lot in FL and DS.
Vengeance is hardly an issue. I don't get a lot of free time to devote to more than one gear set, so if I have to DPS it is always in my tank gear and I rarely have a problem beating the tanks. I typically can manage to hit midrange numbers, even with tank gear.
The inflated dps/damage we see is just a result of initial difference in group gear/comp. DPS shouldn't even be a concern if you're downing the boss anyhow.
The people complaining do understand that a tank has to be actively taking big hits in order to get those high numbers, right? You don't just automatically start doing absurd DPS for specing Guardian/Blood/Protection/Brewmaster and Vengeance doesn't last forever so you can't just roll a high stack and let someone else tank for the rest of the encounter while you focus on doing damage. If everyone went tank just because of their high theoretical numbers you would still only have one or two people doing any kind of meaningful damage and the rest would be doing far less than if they were speced for DPS in the first place. So what was the point again?