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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixhart View Post
    Imagine for a moment that DPS had better survivability than tanks.


    There, you now have your answer.
    You mean like.. say rogues .. on vizier ?

  2. #122
    Herald of the Titans Tzalix's Avatar
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    Have you done any other bosses than Windlord?

    I'm sorry mate, but if tanks are winning on half the fights... Someone is doing something wrong.
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  3. #123
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    He really isn't.
    Oh I believe he is. I don't believe anyone here is asking for Tanks to suddendly go back to the old model of tanking and constantly paying attention to Omen. No I don't think that is the issue. I believe the issue is tanks are doing supremely amount of damage on encounters it craps on DPS and thus in theory renders them useless. If Tanks much higher damage then DPS then why would one roll a DPS class? Logically you would roll a tank for higher damage and so on and so forth if you see the point.

    I am not asking and I don't think people are asking to reduce them to utter crap. People are asking to take them down a notch so DPS suddenly lose their purpose and feel alienated and lose interest in their class. There are many factors why DPS do lower damage then tanks but to say *Tanks are fine, just stfu and L2P* is not a valid argument here. We're all adults here I hope, I would think we could reason Tanks need a minor nerf(Vengeance or whatever) but not destroy them.
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  4. #124
    There's a pretty simple reason why you see tanks out-DPSing people. Vengeance is designed so that a tank can do DPS as if they had a whole lot of gear even when they don't. Vengeance for tanks will not scale with gear nearly as well DPS gear for DPS scales. A full raid of geared DPS will generally be out-DPSing their tank by a wide margin on any fight that isn't super extreme AoE, such as normal Wind Lord. As the expansion goes on and people get much more gear (even those who only do LFR), DPS will, in general, outpace the tanks.

    The purpose of this is pretty simple: so undergeared tanks will be able to have a chance against holding threat against overzealous, and much more geared DPS. It's a 'problem' (insomuch that it's even a problem, Blizzard obviously tunes bosses with the knowledge that tanks will be doing a certain amount of DPS, so it's not like it's breaking the game at all) that will fix itself over time.

    If you're angry that a tank is outDPSing you... well, that's a silly thing to be angry about.

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  5. #125
    At least this butthurt DPS whinning about having a tank do more numbers than him admits thats his sole problem with veng. Most of them try to make up other excuses as to why it should be removed because they dont want to admit they feelings of insecurity tied directly to what recount or skada says.

    If it's that big of a deal to your e-peen, why not simply ignore when a tank is above you and simply judge your worth against the other DPSers in the raid instead?

    Boss fights these days are balanced with tank's contributed DPS in mind. You can't simply remove veng without retuning every boss in the game and also it would just go back to the world of ludicrously high threat modifiers, otherwise tanks couldn't hold agro. Vengeance was a brilliant solution to a well known problem of tank threat scaling against dps damage scaling. If you can't stand someone being higher than you in skada or recount, that is YOUR problem, not something the game needs to be redesigned about.
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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    Oh I believe he is. I don't believe anyone here is asking for Tanks to suddendly go back to the old model of tanking and constantly paying attention to Omen. No I don't think that is the issue. I believe the issue is tanks are doing supremely amount of damage on encounters it craps on DPS and thus in theory renders them useless. If Tanks much higher damage then DPS then why would one roll a DPS class? Logically you would roll a tank for higher damage and so on and so forth if you see the point.

    I am not asking and I don't think people are asking to reduce them to utter crap. People are asking to take them down a notch so DPS suddenly lose their purpose and feel alienated and lose interest in their class. There are many factors why DPS do lower damage then tanks but to say *Tanks are fine, just stfu and L2P* is not a valid argument here. We're all adults here I hope, I would think we could reason Tanks need a minor nerf(Vengeance or whatever) but not destroy them.
    Using your logic everyone should replace 5-6 dps with 5-6 tanks "cuz tanks do higher dmg!!!!!!111one"
    Except then it will fail. The only fights when tanks outright beat dps is windlord and empress. That's 2 out of .... 16 ? Sounds terrible.

  7. #127
    At this point, I can't help but think that OP is complaining just for the sake of complaining.

    Waterbeist - what is your actual reason for not liking Vengeance?

    All you've told us so far is that you somehow lose "pride and respect", but is that really so? It's not like you're getting booted from a raid and another tank is being brought in.

  8. #128
    why do you even care about tanks doing more dps than dps?
    ok, this sentence can sound weird because the roles are not really respecting their place, but i'm pretty sure i never missed any thread where you QQed about mages spreading combustion on Halfus (BoT), rogues going crazy with aoe on Garalon (HoF) or anything like that.

    and, expecting the obvious and wrong answer "but that's just one fight where i can be op i want to be op everywhere", good job at predicting the whole expansion from the first tier. why aren't you working at Blizzard and putting such a great talent at use then? oh right, probably because you cannot predict anything and you shouldn't start complaining about something before you can even see how it works on the long term, which is the most common problem of these threads..

    edit: one more thing that many people seem to be ignoring, even if it's been said... you can have 1-2 people building decent vengeance in a raid, so...
    Q: why would anyone roll a dps class?
    A: because you can't kill a boss* with only tanks and healers, derp

    *waiting for captain obvious to point out "you can kill bosses in normal deadmines with a level 90 healer and tank"
    Last edited by Shuyin; 2013-01-12 at 09:24 PM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    Let me understand this correctly - the tanks, who traditionally do very little damage, are now hitting pretty hard and actively contributing to bringing the boss down faster... and somehow this is a bad thing?

    Also, I have NEVER seen a tank be top in an actual raid. 5H? Sure. LFR? Sure. This only happens because people AFK or are autofollowing, or aren't really paying attention.

    \
    Obviously you've never done wind lord heroic with a dk tank.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    Seriously? You guys still don't get it?

    Gear scaling makes tank damage increase slower with every tier while DPS damage pushes ahead. This will not be a problem after the next tier is released.

    Hell, it's not even a problem now. This isn't a problem. I sincerely do not understand why anyone would complain about it. Does it make your game less fun to have a tank class beating you on DPS during the first tier? Are tanks going to start crying when guilds come back every tier from now and get all the top rankings with DPS classes?

    Get some common fucking sense.
    As one of the tanks in this thread explained, that isn't going to happen to the extent it did before because tanks are now stacking things like haste and not just pure defensive stats like in previous expansions. In previous expansions they fell back rather quick because dodge/defense/parry etc don't give dps while actual dps are stacking haste/crit/hit etc. Not saying tanks will scale completely evenly with dps, but you aren't going to see this big drop off like before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    What happens if ONE of those tanks goes down? You're royally fucked if it's nowhere near to being downed, a heavily plated dps may be able to pick up the slack for 5% or less of health, but if it's any higher, you're done.
    No actually, I could on my rogue tank a raid boss for a considerable amount of time if blizzard didn't make the taunt not work on raid bosses because they don't want us infringing on your role (taunt only needed to grab initial threat, the defensive part isn't really necessary due to the insane amount of dr and avoidance stuff we can pop which lasts an incredibly long time), well actually I can still do that, but theres a good chance the boss would run off and kill a few people before I got threat. I can actually understand that, I mean what tank wants to know that the rogue in his raid could do a better job at being the off tank, and its equally silly that on an ae fight like windlord any tank can faceroll their keyboard and pull far more dps than I do.

  11. #131
    vengeance plus the need to AOE everything.

    It is also amplified this tier because DPS does a ton of off-target stuff.... just a bunch of really weird encounters where the tanks can continually dps but the dps have to switch targets a lot.

    I will say, in LFD, I almost always do double the dps as any of the dps, but that is just Bears having spammable AOE

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    A highly insightful and intellectual post. Let's try this again.

    Currently vengeance is beyond fucking overpowered for tanks and it is not any dps' fault for doing less than a tank nor should they feel bad. Blizzard has admitted themselves that vengeance is far above where it should be. Tanks have admitted it. Anyone with half a brain can see it. That said, a lot of players are actually under-performing and just playing the blame game instead of learning how to properly play whatever spec they choose to play. There are guides to help out new players and veterans alike. Noxxic, EJ, wowhead, etc.
    1) It's not "overpowered", there is no huge advantage it gives over other players, it's not an issue in pvp and tanks aren't the top dps in a raid unless the fight is a gimmick aimed at them.
    2) Blizzard is capping it at max health, which, aside from extreme situations, will never be seen either
    3) A competent dps, gear for gear, on just about every fight, should not only be outdoing a tank, they should be outdoing them by a lot.
    4) AoE dps is the only place tanks can really surge over regular dps, because only a handful of classes have good aoe abilities, like Monks and Destro locks, but thats why we shouldn't concern ourselves too much with AoE dps on trash packs.

  13. #133
    Scarab Lord Humbugged's Avatar
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    Until I see a video of 20 tanks and 5 healers downing Sha, I remain unconvinced
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  14. #134
    Truthfully if tank dps went back to what it used to be before vengeance gave us the ability to do somewhat decent dps I wouldn't even want to tank anymore . Vengeance is what makes tanking fun for me. I like being able to pump out some decent numbers and as many people have pointed out unless its a fight like windlord. The dps in our raids always beat the tanks, and your doing some thing wrong if you can't beat your tanks dps on a majority of fights by a significant margin.

  15. #135
    I got about 3 pages in, skipped the rest. Too much whining, not enough practicing. This is coming from a Brewmaster 16/16HM complete that ranks regularly top 20. Am I the best? Of course not. Does my experience lend credibility? Yes.

    Have we seen an armory from the OP yet? Curious to know how much experience he has, the guild progression, etc. It does weigh into these conversations for the sole fact that there are countless thousands of people that are bad at this game.

    Fights are tuned with Vengeance in mind. There are some fights in this game where enrage timers would not be met in this current tier without vengeance, until you have 5.2 gear.

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  16. #136
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Goodness, blizzard already did nerf vengeance significantly since the expansion started. I could understand the whining if they hadn't nerfed vengeance a great deal already but this is just a bit silly. I see our dps try harder when they lose to the tank instead of whining about it.
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  17. #137
    I seriously do not see any problem with this at all. None. So what if tanks are beating DPS on a few fights because of certain mechanics, tanks are NOT going to replace DPSers. Imagine if you had a 25 man raid with 6-7 healers and the rest tanks. Only 1-2 of those tanks are going to get anywhere near enough vengeance to be able to pull the numbers they do right now, the rest are going to be so far down the list on DPS that you will hit enrage on every single fight.

    I'd also be willing to bet on a lot of those meters with tanks way high that they are wearing some (if not all) DPS gear to push themselves higher if their healers can keep up. I know we did a lot in FL and DS.
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  18. #138
    Vengeance is hardly an issue. I don't get a lot of free time to devote to more than one gear set, so if I have to DPS it is always in my tank gear and I rarely have a problem beating the tanks. I typically can manage to hit midrange numbers, even with tank gear.

    The inflated dps/damage we see is just a result of initial difference in group gear/comp. DPS shouldn't even be a concern if you're downing the boss anyhow.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    I believe the issue is tanks are doing supremely amount of damage on encounters it craps on DPS and thus in theory renders them useless. If Tanks much higher damage then DPS then why would one roll a DPS class? Logically you would roll a tank for higher damage and so on and so forth if you see the point
    Tanks top the charts on certain encounters because the mechanics allow for it (read: a lot of incoming damage). If you're consistently being beaten by your tanks across the majority of the encounters the problem lies with you. Even on the gimmicky fights like Windlord the tanks still don't do so much damage that you could bench all of your DPS and still make the enrage timer, not even close, so I fail to see how that renders anyone "useless". You still require the presence of your damage dealers even if they're being melted by the main tank.

    The people complaining do understand that a tank has to be actively taking big hits in order to get those high numbers, right? You don't just automatically start doing absurd DPS for specing Guardian/Blood/Protection/Brewmaster and Vengeance doesn't last forever so you can't just roll a high stack and let someone else tank for the rest of the encounter while you focus on doing damage. If everyone went tank just because of their high theoretical numbers you would still only have one or two people doing any kind of meaningful damage and the rest would be doing far less than if they were speced for DPS in the first place. So what was the point again?

  20. #140
    OP, please check again the definition of teamwork. If your only aim in this multiplayer game is to "top teh meterz", think again.
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