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  1. #141
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    As long as a tank isn't able to compete with a DPS while not actively tanking (e.g. when hes not having aggro), I don't see a problem here. It's not like you're filling raids with 8 tanks and 2 healers because they do more damage than a dps... (because that's not how it is: a tank only does damage while tanking.)
    What doesn't kill me gives me Vengeance.
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  2. #142
    Dreadlord Lovecrafts's Avatar
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    I play a tank and am disgusted that I get in the top 5 for DPS charts on some fights. Vengence was a nice idea to help with keeping aggro, but it's time to reevaluate it. Instead of something that boosts the damage, how about something that boosts threat levels? DPS would be happy, tanks would keep aggro, everyone is full of smiles.
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    The community whined and bitched and cried, they stamped their little feet and demanded faster expansion releases. They don't get to complain now that expansions are shorter.

  3. #143
    While I don't think vengeance should be removed, it is however too strong.
    This is my personal opinion as a brewmaster monk.
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  4. #144
    Who cares really? Of the few (not half) fights where tanks top damage meters, who cares? The boss is down. Damage meters are there only for your epeen. As others have said, putting 8 tanks in a raid isn't going to do shit. Why care so much about numbers? If numbers is the only thing driving your love of the game, then open up a calculator and just keep hitting 9.

  5. #145
    Fluffy Kitten Millennía's Avatar
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    Im fine with vengeance. Tanks needed a tool to keep threat from DPS that have far superior gear otherwise it just gets very frustrating for them and they may even stop tanking which results in less tanks.

  6. #146
    As long as you aren't stacking tanks because of it, I don't see the problem.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by link4117 View Post
    Who cares really? Of the few (not half) fights where tanks top damage meters, who cares? The boss is down. Damage meters are there only for your epeen. As others have said, putting 8 tanks in a raid isn't going to do shit. Why care so much about numbers? If numbers is the only thing driving your love of the game, then open up a calculator and just keep hitting 9.
    Personally, I think this is a problem with damage meters (and relying on them), not the vengeance mechanic. If your tank is topping the damage meters because of vengeance, it's a sign that the raid is doing a good job... the tank is taking massive damage and not dying? Good. It means your healers are doing their jobs on the tank by keeping him healed. Good. It means the tank is taking the brunt of the damage and holding aggro. Good. It means the DPSers are focusing on the correct targets and not pulling things off the tank. Good.

    So your DPSers are getting butthurt about not getting assigned this damage? The fact is, by doing things right, the whole raid is being rewarded by getting the Vengeance mechanic on the tank, and is downing the boss more easily.

    Nothing to see here folks. The goal here is not to satisfy your e-peen by topping damage meters. The goal is to down bosses and get stuff they drop.

    If Vengeance affected PvP balance, that would be another story. But it doesn't.

  8. #148
    Simply put, you are looking at recount and crying about your one versus one dps with the tank

    So what if one tank outdps a single target minded dps spec in aoe, thats ONE dps in your raid out of 15+ dps, the combined dps of the dps classes will do far more dps than the one or two tanks

    If you remove the supplimental damage from tanks, you must remove CC from healers, any kind of healing from dps, and any kind of defensive ability from all dps and healers and all DPS must die in one hit to raid damage, then you will be stuck with a game with absolutely zero variety and one boring and broken game, dont just whine about tanks when dps and healers can do the tanks job in many instances aswell

    And if you simply increase threat of tanks and make tanks all do 5 damage per hit, then how does tank function in anything else? how does tank do daily, how does tank pvp, how does tank do achievments, are you seriously trying to turn tanks and healers into GROUP ONLY class? dont be selfish this is not skyrim, this is a class role based game and all role should be viable in every aspect of the game, tank damage is not breaking dps, you are just crying about being butthurt and jealous of it
    Last edited by Tokiii; 2013-01-12 at 11:23 PM.

  9. #149
    Field Marshal komgcn's Avatar
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    Although I'm a healer and which raider doing what dps doesn't really matter me, I've got to agree with this thread.
    Put aside all those data-farming, WoL-explanantion, game-balancing, this vengeance system just simply makes the game~~~~WEIRD.

  10. #150
    Its getting nerfed in 5.2, so it cant above a tank health a blue post said yesterday, so dw
    Last edited by Rotted; 2013-01-12 at 11:23 PM. Reason: 5.2 typo

  11. #151
    multiple reasons to not like vengeance.
    nr1 for me is that it is making tank switches really annoying, even to the point that i have to stop auto attacking when other tanks taunts.

    besides that, its the issue of tank winning dps meters, which isnt so fun for DD's, but also makes the diffuclty of the bosses harder to balance.
    Take empress heroic p2 for example.
    lets say your raid have a problem doing enough damage in this phase, so your healers wont get the precious mana reg time in the end and you keep whiping, you conduct that the raid needs to do 5% more damage in this phase.

    you look at the healers: yes they can do dmg, but not much, and prob not in p2, and not enough.
    you look at the dpsers: Yes, they SHOULD be the ones pushing the extra 5% here. BUT since DPS together doesnt even do 50% of the damage tanks provide here, you instead look to tanks.
    Tanks: Ok we need to do 5-10% more damage here to pull this off, how can we do that? well lets tank more mobs, take more damage and hope that our healers can manage.

    --> all this leads to: Tanks have to take unneccesary risks to GAIN raid dps,
    Healers have to work their asses off.
    and still, it doesnt really matter if DPS does bring their A-game or not. cos in the end, the tank will cover their part, and a good tank try compared to a bad can be the difference of a whole dps being fully active, or afk.

    It is riddonculus. totally riddonculus and makes it harder to balance enrage timers, and makes it less incentive that dps actually do the most they can.
    Imo tanks should do 50-75% of DPS'ers in raids, it still MATTERS, but when the raid needs 5% extra damage, you dont look at the TANK first.

    And for people that say that they only tank for the DPS gain of vengeance (seems to be quite a few).
    Stop tanking. seriously. thats not what tanking is about. if you want to DPS, then do so, as a DPS.
    Let us worry about how to maximize survival, minimize risk,damage taken,deaths. Let us help our healers help us help the raid.


    Vengeance makes to big differences between Main tanking and OT aswell, its just plain bad.
    give vengeance to bosses instead. that would be fun.. "no dont BL, it might kill the tank!"
    Last edited by imoom; 2013-01-12 at 11:32 PM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotted View Post
    Its getting nerfed in 5.2, so it cant above a tank health a blue post said yesterday, so dw
    That's actually a 5.1 hotfix to the live servers from Jan 8.

  13. #153
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    Vengeance going above tank health isn't an issue for current raiders, it was a fix to prevent high inflated lowbies wearing MoP/Cata gear at 80 from breaking the game.

    I like vengeance, makes tanking far more enjoyable than just sitting there. Tanking is largely the easiest roll in the game but having meaningful DPS contribution while maintaining survivability is good game design IMO.

    This isn't going to be much of an issue going forward unless there are encounters with lots of adds, which tanks do well on because of AoE tools. Look at encounters that tanks do well in.

    Amber-shaper: Inflated damage because of constructs

    Windlord: Inflated damage because of AoE. In reality on heroic a number of classes do more meaningful (boss) damage during the burn then you, which is what matters.

    Shek'zeer: Again inflated because of AoE. Tanks AoE to keep threat, get massive AP while DPS single target a couple down (which is meaningful damage).

    Protectors: AoE. Commonly single tanked. Tank is AoEing while a lot of other people are single targeting. This isn't because a tank is purposely padding, but because of threat and that some rotational abilities are just AoE anyway.

    There are mechanic specific reasons why tanks do better damage than DPS from time to time, but a lot of the time it's padding. At the beginning of the expansion you saw this because with low combat ratings (crit, haste, mastery) tanks excelled because +AP adds a bigger portion of damage. Vengeance will get larger as the expansion goes on but the effect on tank DPS isn't going to be as big because the contribution +AP gives to DPS isn't as significant as say adding crit/haste would. DPS are relatively speaking going to gain a larger % of AP/spell power going forward, and naturally because of their role are going to be rocking more crit/haste/mastery than a tank has access to.

    Mastery doesn't scale tank damage, tanks need more expertise, and for a lot of classes sacrificing mastery/dodge/parry for more haste/crit would be at the sacrifice of damage.

    I don't see it being a problem going forward outside of gimmicky encounters, encounters where tanks have more uptime and of course, encounters that rely heavily as AoE.

    The only thing I don't like about vengeance is encounters like Lei shi where I have to stop attacking because I'll pull aggro. Can be solved with salvation /cancel auras when ready to taunt though.
    Last edited by Tojara; 2013-01-12 at 11:38 PM.

  14. #154
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Because there's nothing wrong with it; Like what are you going to do? Have a top elite guild stack tanks when obviously that isn't viable. It's just plain silly in most cases and even more funny you're complaining about it.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Tanks do everything, take dmg, position boss, dps boss. Healers heal, and dps do dps. Tanks are given far too much importance, and yes, healers and dps are just there to support tanks. MoP's raiding is nothing like any of the previous WoW versions.
    I also heal as a paladin tank.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Elhorn the Doomchicken View Post
    Still waiting for OP's armory link...
    I would like to see this as well.

    I have never been beat by a DPS except on the fight in HoF where there like a dozen mobs for me to tank.

  17. #157
    Learn to wait 3-4sec between fights to blow ur CDs then


    Vengeance was added to give tanks more threat to deal with impatient idiots

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    There's a pretty simple reason why you see tanks out-DPSing people. Vengeance is designed so that a tank can do DPS as if they had a whole lot of gear even when they don't. Vengeance for tanks will not scale with gear nearly as well DPS gear for DPS scales. A full raid of geared DPS will generally be out-DPSing their tank by a wide margin on any fight that isn't super extreme AoE, such as normal Wind Lord. As the expansion goes on and people get much more gear (even those who only do LFR), DPS will, in general, outpace the tanks.

    The purpose of this is pretty simple: so undergeared tanks will be able to have a chance against holding threat against overzealous, and much more geared DPS. It's a 'problem' (insomuch that it's even a problem, Blizzard obviously tunes bosses with the knowledge that tanks will be doing a certain amount of DPS, so it's not like it's breaking the game at all) that will fix itself over time.

    If you're angry that a tank is outDPSing you... well, that's a silly thing to be angry about.
    Silly point? Are you seriously telling you are happy that someone who has full control over the fight, takes up all the damage, AND do far superior dps then you on some fights, and constantly fights with you on the dps on others?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shink View Post
    Learn to wait 3-4sec between fights to blow ur CDs then


    Vengeance was added to give tanks more threat to deal with impatient idiots
    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please learn about the topic before posting nonsense.
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  19. #159
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Tanks do everything, take dmg, position boss, dps boss. Healers heal, and dps do dps. Tanks are given far too much importance, and yes, healers and dps are just there to support tanks. MoP's raiding is nothing like any of the previous WoW versions.
    And that is why tanking is the most interesting thing.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  20. #160
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    That means your DPS are playing wrong.

    Our DPS destroy our Tanks usually.

    I say usually because there's always one or two people who lag behind because of gear and barely beat them.

    Perfect example: our Monk and DK tanks have about a 498 iLevel, and our sub in Paladin DPS who has a 468 iLevel barely beat them. See the gear difference? He still beat them.
    The issue is AoE tanking... Tanks gain absurd and unfair amounts of Vengeance from AoE tanking.

    Take a look at WoL for Heroic Wind Lord 25M. Tanks are doing over 1m DPS easily on that fight, highest being a Paladin with 1.4m DPS. Most DPS specs seem to hover at the 500-550k mark, Fire Mages at 750k, still that's barely half of what tanks do on the fight.

    Vengeance should just have a cap based on your current health like it used to.

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