How can people be ok with Vengeance?

[Waterisbest]

I would like to see this as well.

I have never been beat by a DPS except on the fight in HoF where there like a dozen mobs for me to tank.

What will my armory tell you? It will show you my gear. That's it. WTF are you going to do with the gear I have? Nothing. My armory gives you no valid information about this topic. Stop asking for useless data.

I have given world logs on two different websites. You choose to ignore it, but my armory means everything...

[Vladimeir]

The issue is AoE tanking... Tanks gain absurd and unfair amounts of Vengeance from AoE tanking.

Take a look at WoL for Heroic Wind Lord 25M. Tanks are doing over 1m DPS easily on that fight, highest being a Paladin with 1.4m DPS. Most DPS specs seem to hover at the 500-550k mark, Fire Mages at 750k, still that's barely half of what tanks do on the fight.

Vengeance should just have a cap based on your current health like it used to.

Next patch, vengeance caps at max health again.

[Musta Kyy]

There are only handful of fights where tanks will be the first in dps in raids. I don't see what is the problem with it, only the one taking damage will get vengeance, so there wont ever be a situation where dps spot is given to a tank instead. Currently I cannot think more fights than windlord and will of the emperor where tanks will most likely be first in dps.
People just dont want changes, it is logical that the one holding aggro is also doing high dps, if it had always been that way, no one would be complaining about dps pride. (which makes me laugh, usually that is just ignoring adds/other mechanics and standing in shit to make as much dps as possible, yay)
This is coming from someone who never has had tank as main char, but often as alt.

[Waterisbest]

Because there's nothing wrong with it; Like what are you going to do? Have a top elite guild stack tanks when obviously that isn't viable. It's just plain silly in most cases and even more funny you're complaining about it.

This point of "you cant stack tanks so its fine" is the most retarded counter argument I have seen. Did I EVER mention that guilds will ignore dps speccs cause they will start stacking tanks or bullshit like that? NO.

My point is simple. For 8 years tanks did the part of soaking up damage, leading the raid, setup bosses, controlling the fights. Dps did the dps. Why the fuck would you go on a change a system that worked for 8 because some tanks can't hold aggro in a obsolete heriocs? Undermining what damage dps do in raids just because of that stupid reason?

Tanks were important for the raid for a reason, dps were important for another reason.

[Luciferstwin]

Yup, a very straight forward question. How can you be ok with vengeance? It gives tanks way too much AP and they are out dpsing alot of dps speccs, even on single target dps fights. Lets not forget fights, where it's all about the tanks and a few of their supports.

Blizz took away a dps' pride and gave it to the tanks. Now all dps do is make up numbers in the a raid unless there are massive dps buffs in the fight or you are playing one of the strong dps speccs, that also on only a few fights. As soon as there are a couple of adds involved, that's it, forget about beating the tanks in dps.

What is the point of vengeance? Blizz says it's there to provide undergeared tanks enough AP so they can hold aggro against geared dps in heroics. WHAT? Heroics are are obsolete. If a dps is outgearing a heroic, he/she, 1) doesn't belong there, 2) can easily "tank" a mob or two he/she has aggro on. The entire point of vengeance is utter nonsense.

Tanks were one of the most important part of raids, and now they are given way, way, WAY too much importance. It's all about the tanks right now who have a few people supporting them. I don't want to play a support anymore. As a dps I should be doing more dps then a tank because that's my job, TO DPS DOWN THE BOSS/ADDS not the fucking tanks' job.

Vengeance is should be removed from the game and if Blizz wants the tanks to generate more aggro against geared dps, just increase the threat generation from spells. Threat is a joke anyways so why the hell do we have vengeance undermining what the dps do best?

And all that tanks bring dps to down bosses faster etc. crap. PLEASE, bosses went down just fine before tanks started doing more dps then dps themselves.

The entire point of the trinity is, tanks soak damage, position the boss/adds, etc. DPS kill the add/boss and healers heal the raid. Why the hell are breaking away from a system that worked perfectly fine for 8 fucking just so you can give speccs far too much importance when they already were the most important part of the raid?

Seeing tanks topping meters and getting top ranks on WoL, beating dps my miles makes me sick.

I don't want to play a support anymore, I want my role and respect back.

I really dont see why you are bitching. In my 10 man Heroic raids, I rarely EVER get on top of the damage meters.... If you as a DPS cannot beat a tank on DPs then you need to reroll.....

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:16 AM ----------

There are only handful of fights where tanks will be the first in dps in raids. I don't see what is the problem with it, only the one taking damage will get vengeance, so there wont ever be a situation where dps spot is given to a tank instead. Currently I cannot think more fights than windlord and will of the emperor where tanks will most likely be first in dps.
People just dont want changes, it is logical that the one holding aggro is also doing high dps, if it had always been that way, no one would be complaining about dps pride. (which makes me laugh, usually that is just ignoring adds/other mechanics and standing in shit to make as much dps as possible, yay)
This is coming from someone who never has had tank as main char, but often as alt.

Even in Will, a good dps who knows how to dance can out damage tanks....

[Rivin]

Vengeance should just have a cap based on your current health like it used to.

It already does, and the cap doesn't matter anyway because Vengeance doesn't usually exceed 300k even on AoE fights.

[Waterisbest]

There are only handful of fights where tanks will be the first in dps in raids. I don't see what is the problem with it, only the one taking damage will get vengeance, so there wont ever be a situation where dps spot is given to a tank instead. Currently I cannot think more fights than windlord and will of the emperor where tanks will most likely be first in dps.
People just dont want changes, it is logical that the one holding aggro is also doing high dps, if it had always been that way, no one would be complaining about dps pride. (which makes me laugh, usually that is just ignoring adds/other mechanics and standing in shit to make as much dps as possible, yay)
This is coming from someone who never has had tank as main char, but often as alt.

Shakzeer (hc and normal).
Lei Shi (normal).
Windlord (hc and normal).
Feng (hc and normal).
Guardians (hc).
Will (hc).
Protectors (hc and normal).

Just a handful of fights out of 16 bosses we have in this tier.

Brewmaster Monks (tanks) are top dps if u do a mean of all fights. Feral druids are 3rd dps. Blood DK is 5th. Prot Pala is in top 10. Prot Warr is beating about 8 dps speccs.

Apparently everything is fine and tanks aren't doing too much and people are beaten by Tanks on dps have l2p issues.

[rowaasr13]

Yup, a very straight forward question. How can you be ok with vengeance? It gives tanks way too much AP and they are out dpsing alot of dps speccs, even on single target dps fights. Lets not forget fights, where it's all about the tanks and a few of their supports.

First, you're not fucking "DPS", you're damger or damage dealer. Tanks are not TPS and healers are not HPS either. Second: if it's that easy to be good damaging tank, just roll one and be happy! "I have butthurt, so somebody else must suffer" is just pathetic mentality.

[Waterisbest]

I really dont see why you are bitching. In my 10 man Heroic raids, I rarely EVER get on top of the damage meters.... If you as a DPS cannot beat a tank on DPs then you need to reroll.....

If you aren't beating the dps on the fights I have listed above. You need to up your damage as a tank.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:24 AM ----------

First, you're not fucking "DPS", you're damger or damage dealer. Tanks are not TPS and healers are not HPS either. Second: if it's that easy to be good damaging tank, just roll one and be happy! "I have butthurt, so somebody else must suffer" is just pathetic mentality.

The only one with a pathetic mentality here is you.

[RoKPaNda]

The issue is AoE tanking... Tanks gain absurd and unfair amounts of Vengeance from AoE tanking.

Take a look at WoL for Heroic Wind Lord 25M. Tanks are doing over 1m DPS easily on that fight, highest being a Paladin with 1.4m DPS. Most DPS specs seem to hover at the 500-550k mark, Fire Mages at 750k, still that's barely half of what tanks do on the fight.

Vengeance should just have a cap based on your current health like it used to.

And the fight is designed around that, that's intended, so it's fine. People really need to keep that in mind when they look at damage meters, your top damage class is still your top damage class, just completely discard the tank from the mix because they're only there as part of a fight mechanic. It in no way at all takes anything away from the people in DPS roles, at all. It's one person in each raid on certain fights that can pull really good damage and it helps your raid.

It would only be a problem if tanks could do it while not tanking. If a tank can just show up and deal as much damage as a DPS class without having monsters beating on them then it becomes problematic. At this point it's one tank in each raid that can do good damage. Woooo.

Just as an example lets say there was a spec that's always middle of the pack as far as DPS goes. Lets just say Boomkins for example because I like picking on them. Lets say there are 12 bosses in a tier and in 10 of them Boomkins aren't at the top, and lets just say that they're actually the worst DPS spec possible. Then lets say that 2 of the fights in some way give boomkins an advantage and on those two fights boomkins make up the top 3-5 DPS every time. Do you know what people would say? The same thing they've said every other time any class has had an advantage on a specific fight "Well it's that fight, who cares?"

So it's Wind Lord, tanks are untouchable on damage there, who cares, it's one fight?

If you want to complain about tanks beating out the low/mid tier DPS on the average boss encounter fair enough, but as other people have pointed out the DPS of DPS classes is going to skyrocket as the expansion goes forward while vengeance is capped and tank DPS will increase very slowly. A month tops into next tier this won't even be considered an issue by the people who think it is one now. Though under-performers might still.

[Deleted]

What will my armory tell you? It will show you my gear. That's it. WTF are you going to do with the gear I have? Nothing. My armory gives you no valid information about this topic. Stop asking for useless data.

I have given world logs on two different websites. You choose to ignore it, but my armory means everything...

I may be wrong but weren't you claiming that your tanks in your raids were out dpsing most of your raid? If that's the case your armory is relevant. It shows us your gear levels compared to your guild gear levels. Your progression and may lead to some WoL of your raids specifically.

[Firebert]

Im fine with vengeance. Tanks needed a tool to keep threat from DPS that have far superior gear otherwise it just gets very frustrating for them and they may even stop tanking which results in less tanks.

This may be true, but doubling their threat percentage and halving their DPS nets the same result, with tanks not sitting in the middle of DPS in the parses.

[Deleted]

Seeing tanks topping meters and getting top ranks on WoL, beating dps my miles makes me sick.

I don't want to play a support anymore, I want my role and respect back.

*goes to WorldOfLogs*
*checks the DPS ranks*

One lone Protection Paladin at Lei Shi. Everything else in the entire raid dominated by DPS.
Tanks dominate Wind Lord and Grand Empress.
Everything in Mogu'shan is dominated by DPS.

So I have to go with what BaP said. It's a learn to play issue.

[Waterisbest]

I may be wrong but weren't you claiming that your tanks in your raids were out dpsing most of your raid? If that's the case your armory is relevant. It shows us your gear levels compared to your guild gear levels. Your progression and may lead to some WoL of your raids specifically.

I NEVER said the tanks in my raid were out dpsing most of my raid... I said tanks right are doing far more dps then dps themselves. My argument isn't based around my raid. IT'S BASED AROUND SITES THAT TRACK DPS ON FIGHTS.

[Luciferstwin]

If you aren't beating the dps on the fights I have listed above. You need to up your damage as a tank.[COLOR="red"]

Umm no. Good DPS actually know how to do more damage then a tank.

[Waterisbest]

*goes to WorldOfLogs*
*checks the DPS ranks*

One lone Protection Paladin at Lei Shi. Everything else in the entire raid dominated by DPS.
Tanks dominate Wind Lord and Grand Empress.
Everything in Mogu'shan is dominated by DPS.

So I have to go with what BaP said. It's a learn to play issue.

Open your eyes and look past the top 10. There are ranks below top 10. Stop acting stupid.

[Firebert]

Umm no. Good DPS actually know how to do more damage then a tank.

This isn't Wrath/Cataclysm any more. Good DPS can't deal with tanks getting 300,000AP (that is, effectively 150,000 Strength/Agility less the Parry/Dodge) for free.

[Deleted]

I NEVER said the tanks in my raid were out dpsing most of my raid... I said tanks right are doing far more dps then dps themselves. My argument isn't based around my raid. IT'S BASED AROUND SITES THAT TRACK DPS ON FIGHTS.

The same site that says:

"Be smart about using this data in discussions of class balance. Don't just look at the overall charts and QQ on forums. The truth is usually more nuanced than what is shown here."

[Luciferstwin]

If you aren't beating the dps on the fights I have listed above. You need to up your damage as a tank.[COLOR="red"]

Your fight is Invalid.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...ss_Spring/dps/

I see 3 tanks in top 10 on all bosses. No where does it show "tanks are always on top damage"

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:35 AM ----------

This isn't Wrath/Cataclysm any more. Good DPS can't deal with tanks getting 300,000AP (that is, effectively 150,000 Strength/Agility less the Parry/Dodge) for free.

I have yet to break 300k AP on my DK. Even with pulling all 3 sets of adds on the 4th boss in HoF I still only manage to get MAYBE 200k AP

[Waterisbest]

Umm no. Good DPS actually know how to do more damage then a tank.

Have raided in MoP? Done any heroic modes? My argument is not baseless and I have shown enough proof. There are alot of people backing me up on this. Good dps used to out dps tanks in WotLK and Cata (in TBC tanks did little to no dps), not in MoP. Tanks can get upto 200k or more AP. You cannot outdps anyone with 200k more AP then you, anyone. 200k AP...

Vengeance is so broken a level 80 paladin soloed a raid boss in MoP. That's enough proof right there how stupid and broken vengeance is.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:37 AM ----------

Your fight is Invalid.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...ss_Spring/dps/

I see 3 tanks in top 10 on all bosses. No where does it show "tanks are always on top damage"

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:35 AM ----------




I have yet to break 300k AP on my DK. Even with pulling all 3 sets of adds on the 4th boss in HoF I still only manage to get MAYBE 200k AP

GOOD GOD PEOPLE. There ARE ranks below TOP 10.