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  1. #1

    How can people be ok with Vengeance?

    Yup, a very straight forward question. How can you be ok with vengeance? It gives tanks way too much AP and they are out dpsing alot of dps speccs, even on single target dps fights. Lets not forget fights, where it's all about the tanks and a few of their supports.

    Blizz took away a dps' pride and gave it to the tanks. Now all dps do is make up numbers in the a raid unless there are massive dps buffs in the fight or you are playing one of the strong dps speccs, that also on only a few fights. As soon as there are a couple of adds involved, that's it, forget about beating the tanks in dps.

    What is the point of vengeance? Blizz says it's there to provide undergeared tanks enough AP so they can hold aggro against geared dps in heroics. WHAT? Heroics are are obsolete. If a dps is outgearing a heroic, he/she, 1) doesn't belong there, 2) can easily "tank" a mob or two he/she has aggro on. The entire point of vengeance is utter nonsense.

    Tanks were one of the most important part of raids, and now they are given way, way, WAY too much importance. It's all about the tanks right now who have a few people supporting them. I don't want to play a support anymore. As a dps I should be doing more dps then a tank because that's my job, TO DPS DOWN THE BOSS/ADDS not the fucking tanks' job.

    Vengeance is should be removed from the game and if Blizz wants the tanks to generate more aggro against geared dps, just increase the threat generation from spells. Threat is a joke anyways so why the hell do we have vengeance undermining what the dps do best?

    And all that tanks bring dps to down bosses faster etc. crap. PLEASE, bosses went down just fine before tanks started doing more dps then dps themselves.

    The entire point of the trinity is, tanks soak damage, position the boss/adds, etc. DPS kill the add/boss and healers heal the raid. Why the hell are breaking away from a system that worked perfectly fine for 8 fucking just so you can give speccs far too much importance when they already were the most important part of the raid?

    Seeing tanks topping meters and getting top ranks on WoL, beating dps my miles makes me sick.

    I don't want to play a support anymore, I want my role and respect back.
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    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  2. #2
    The Patient BaP's Avatar
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    Than learn to play, of the tanks are beating you on most fights its your fault and you are just not playing to your full potential !!!!

  3. #3
    Tanks/healers/dps all support each other in raids, so therefore they are all support roles. Try raiding with even 1 of those roles and you'll shortly find out its literally impossible.

    You're plain wrong.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by BaP View Post
    Than learn to play, of the tanks are beating you on most fights its your fault and you are just not playing to your full potential !!!!
    Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaP View Post
    Than learn to play, of the tanks are beating you on most fights its your fault and you are just not playing to your full potential !!!!
    A highly insightful and intellectual post. Let's try this again.

    Currently vengeance is beyond fucking overpowered for tanks and it is not any dps' fault for doing less than a tank nor should they feel bad. Blizzard has admitted themselves that vengeance is far above where it should be. Tanks have admitted it. Anyone with half a brain can see it. That said, a lot of players are actually under-performing and just playing the blame game instead of learning how to properly play whatever spec they choose to play. There are guides to help out new players and veterans alike. Noxxic, EJ, wowhead, etc.
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    Also....my condolences to whoever is Lora's lover. You got matched up with a madman, regardless of his alignment.

  6. #6
    It was implemented to stop high-geared DPS always stealing threat. In some fights due to the boss mechanics, the tanks will top DPS. But most of the time DPS will - if they know their role. The threat gen is already boosted 500% but that still isnt enough if your say a newly starting out tank vs someone even half geared.

    -Grim

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by BaP View Post
    Than learn to play, of the tanks are beating you on most fights its your fault and you are just not playing to your full potential !!!!
    ppl like you should be banned for commenting things they dont know.


    If you would ever outDPS tanks in wind lord or empress that means only 1 thing - your tank died after 60 sec of the fight.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by reohh View Post
    Tanks/healers/dps all support each other in raids, so therefore they are all support roles. Try raiding with even 1 of those roles and you'll shortly find out its literally impossible.

    You're plain wrong.
    Tanks do everything, take dmg, position boss, dps boss. Healers heal, and dps do dps. Tanks are given far too much importance, and yes, healers and dps are just there to support tanks. MoP's raiding is nothing like any of the previous WoW versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  9. #9
    You or your gear is terrible for DPS. Vengeance makes for a very interesting and rewarding balance between damage intake, skill rotation and CDs, far more than threat. So answering your question, vengeance is there to make tanking much more attractive and valuable for the raid, without displacing any decent dps.

    PD: I don't think tanks are given far too much importance, just more that they one they had in horrible tiers like DS. But if anyone should be given it by raid mechanics, it should be tanks. I have known players playing a DPS who are not confortable at all with additional responsabilities in raid; I have never known a tank at that situation.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-01-12 at 06:57 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Seeing tanks topping meters and getting top ranks on WoL, beating dps my miles makes me sick.

    I don't want to play a support anymore, I want my role and respect back.
    This is one of those posts where someone complains because of information they see on WoL without having all the facts. First off how old are some of those logs of where people got them before hotfixes? Secondly, if you want to complain about tank dps come back in about 2-3 weeks and see if it's the same. You know there was a hotfix applied the other day that caps Vengeance at a certain point that may or may not have an affect at 90 raiding. Hard to tell until several raids have been ran and tested. (Yes I know it was primarily for the 80's who were solo'ing unattended stuff, but it still has an affect on everyone at every level)

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Tanks do everything, take dmg, position boss, dps boss. Healers heal, and dps do dps. Tanks are given far too much importance, and yes, healers and dps are just there to support tanks. MoP's raiding is nothing like any of the previous WoW versions.
    Based on that each role has 1 job except for tanks. What exactly would like a tank to do? Take damage and sit there and do nothing and hope the boss doesn't need positioning? Would you rather the tank just move the boss and not be the sponge? Or would you rather them dps the boss for threat and not take damage or position?

    The tank role is to take damage so the raid doesn't by doing damage which causes threat and moving the boss if necessary. A dps' role is to ensure the boss is going down by tanking damage while watching out for certain mechanics that help out in the fight and use their self defense spells to alleviate healing/damage taken. Healer's role is to ensure the raid is constantly healed, debuffs (if possible) removed and do occasional dps when possible.

    Every role has multiple jobs, if you are only doing damage as a dps then you are doing it wrong. If a tank is beating you on dps (and there aren't mechanics in the fight that make it so such as Alysrazor) then you are not doing something you should. Whether it's popping cooldowns at appropriate times, not taking advantage of damage buffs, etc.
    Last edited by Lucetia; 2013-01-12 at 07:01 PM.

  11. #11
    What does it matter? Not like you can just stack tanks for fights because of Vengeance.
    Only make passive aggressive posts when it doesn't make you look like a dumbass.

    Flawless - Cats on Ice. Raiding twice a week. Go casual or go home.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim32 View Post
    It was implemented to stop high-geared DPS always stealing threat. In some fights due to the boss mechanics, the tanks will top DPS. But most of the time DPS will - if they know their role. The threat gen is already boosted 500% but that still isnt enough if your say a newly starting out tank vs someone even half geared.

    -Grim
    The reason you give is what Blizz give. And I am not saying this with any disrespect to you or to Blizz, but I believe vengeance is a joke and stupid mechanic. If they don't want overgeared dps to take aggro off tanks, then simply increase the threat generation of spells coming from the tank. No need to give them so much dps that dps themselves feel unimportant.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    This is one of those posts where someone complains because of information they see on WoL without having all the facts. First off how old are some of those logs of where people got them before hotfixes? Secondly, if you want to complain about tank dps come back in about 2-3 weeks and see if it's the same. You know there was a hotfix applied the other day that caps Vengeance at a certain point that may or may not have an affect at 90 raiding. Hard to tell until several raids have been ran and tested. (Yes I know it was primarily for the 80's who were solo'ing unattended stuff, but it still has an affect on everyone at every level)
    The hot fix you are talking about is that vengeance now caps at the TOTAL AMOUNT OF HP a tanks has. Which can be as high as 750k, which means 750k AP. It's not a nerf or anything like you are thinking it to be. It's only a nerf to lower level players. 90s won't feel a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  13. #13
    Fluffy Kitten Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    The reason you give is what Blizz give. And I am not saying this with any disrespect to you or to Blizz, but I believe vengeance is a joke and stupid mechanic. If they don't want overgeared dps to take aggro off tanks, then simply increase the threat generation of spells coming from the tank. No need to give them so much dps that dps themselves feel unimportant.
    Vengeance was a stopgap measure while they worked on the threat buff, looking back. Currently, Vengeance serves to assist in threat generation, and it looks like in 5.2 they're giving the mechanic a fairly reasonable cap. Between Vengeance and the threat buff, nowadays tanks can focus more on their mitigation and survivability, rather than keeping their eyes glued to Omen.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  14. #14
    Let me understand this correctly - the tanks, who traditionally do very little damage, are now hitting pretty hard and actively contributing to bringing the boss down faster... and somehow this is a bad thing?

    Also, I have NEVER seen a tank be top in an actual raid. 5H? Sure. LFR? Sure. This only happens because people AFK or are autofollowing, or aren't really paying attention.

    A DPS's pride? Respect? As a long time tank, I've never thought much of DPSer that would warrant respect. The only time might be on DPS race fights (Ultrax), but I congratulate as a whole. DPS aren't really in a position to save the raid when wiping by healing, and they're not intended to hold aggro. If they want respect, they need to bring the boss down, not just top the meters.

    Moreover - no one was playing as a tank because it was stressful, you weren't appreciated, and you never did that much damage. This was punctuated by having fail DPS either face pulling or nuking from the get-go before a tank could gather aggro.

    I fail to see any merit in your argument. This is a classic case of 'complaining about a good thing'.

  15. #15
    I guess you never saw a Brewmaster tank. They can sometimes do more hps than the healers while they are tanking and out dps'ing the DPS.
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  16. #16
    Why would it matter that tanks do high dmg?
    It only makes it more important for tanks to min max dmg to help the raid.

    It's still the same old trinity since taking more tanks would mean less dmg due to lower vengeance on each tank.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?
    Lets look at the fights, and since I play in a 25 man guild, I'll use 25H for the numbers.

    Stone Guard - 3/10
    Feng - 7/10
    Gara'jal - 0/10
    Spirit Kings - 1/10
    Elegon - 0/10
    WotE - 3/4
    Vizier - 0/10
    Ta'yak - 0/10
    Garalon - 0/10
    Mel'jarak - 9/10
    Un'sok - 1/10
    Shek'zeer - 10/10
    Protectors - 0/10 normal - 1/10 elite
    Tsulong - 2/10
    Lei Shi - 1/10
    Sha of Fear - 0/10

    Of all of the fights at least 5 of them have mechanics which cause tanks to do high damage from abilities (Feng), or lots of aoe damage (Mel'jarak/Shek'zeer). You can game two of the bosses (Stone Guards, Protectors) by tanking multiple bosses in the fight. For 11 of the fights though, DPS should be winning the meters. If they're not,they're doing something wrong. In the beginning of the xpac, tanks were doing absurd damage on every boss. It wasn't until dps got gear they were able to catch up and surpass tanks on the majority of the fights.



  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    You or your gear is terrible for DPS. Vengeance makes for a very interesting and rewarding balance between damage intake, skill rotation and CDs, far more than threat. So answering your question, vengeance is there to make tanking much more attractive and valuable for the raid, without displacing any decent dps.

    PD: I don't think tanks are given far too much importance, just more that they one they had in horrible tiers like DS. But if anyone should be given it by raid mechanics, it should be tanks. I have known players playing a DPS who are not confortable at all with additional responsabilities in raid; I have never known a tank at that situation.
    My gear and my dps are fine and pretty amazing for the specc I play. Doesn't change the fact that tanks are out dpsing dps on half of the fights and it can be 100% in 5.2 cause pretty much every fight has alot of boss/adds involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  19. #19
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?
    That means your DPS are playing wrong.

    Our DPS destroy our Tanks usually.

    I say usually because there's always one or two people who lag behind because of gear and barely beat them.

    Perfect example: our Monk and DK tanks have about a 498 iLevel, and our sub in Paladin DPS who has a 468 iLevel barely beat them. See the gear difference? He still beat them.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    The reason you give is what Blizz give. And I am not saying this with any disrespect to you or to Blizz, but I believe vengeance is a joke and stupid mechanic. If they don't want overgeared dps to take aggro off tanks, then simply increase the threat generation of spells coming from the tank. No need to give them so much dps that dps themselves feel unimportant.
    Yes, let's just amplify tank abilities threat by +500% (or some stupid number) so all you do is go back to autoattacking a boss because that was so much more fun. In order for Blizzard to make sure tanks of all gear can keep threat against dps of all gear levels they have to buff threat to some stupid number to where a newly geared tank still works at it a little, but a geared tank could just just autoattack and move when needed and not worry about other abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    My gear and my dps are fine and pretty amazing for the specc I play. Doesn't change the fact that tanks are out dpsing dps on half of the fights and it can be 100% in 5.2 cause pretty much every fight has alot of boss/adds involved.
    You keep saying this without a link to your armory, logs, etc to back up your point. Also, I'm glad you can see the future of 5.2 and have tested every raid to know that tanks will be completely outdps'ing everyone.

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