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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    No. Just no. So one tank makes it into the top 10 of the damage meter, or is top on one or two fights. How does that take anything at all away from the DPS? The tank was higher because of a tanking mechanic, so just exclude him or her from your comparisons. Lets say Sally McTankerton was #1 on the damage meter and you Waterisbest are #2 ... Congratulations!!! You're still the #1 DPS! Nobody is going to think less of you because a fight mechanic made the tank deal a bunch of damage, you're still the #1 DPS. Nothing was taken from you.
    Diminishing work of others. A tank gets high dps on aoe encounters without even trying.
    I certainly agree that tank aoe specifically is still retarded.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by BaP View Post
    I play a war tank, if I am beating you in dps its your fault, either you are playing a sub-par spec or ( and this is my feeling) you just can't play !!!
    If DPS are beating you on Wind Lord, it's your fault, not theirs. All of the top parses on Wind Lord are for DPS, which makes perfect sense since you have one tank holding everything.

    Now, had the post you quoted not mentioned Wind Lord, I would've agreed with you 100%.

  3. #83
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Have a LOOK at this chart.
    This one is an average of all the parses (even the terrible ones).

    Brewmasters at the top, Ferals third, Blood and Protadins in the middle of the pack, and Warrior Tanks lagging behind, but still beating Feral DPS, Retribution, Balance, Survival, Beast Mastery and Elemental.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    If nobody cares that a tank out DPSes a top DPS spec due to a tank mechanic on a couple fights, they'd care even less if a tank outDPSed a mid-tier DPS spec.
    The next problem comes directly off of the bolded part: Tanks doing more DPS than a DPS spec alerts more people that there's only one good DPS spec (if they have an option) for their class, and players feel forced to flock to that spec. See Arcane post-Fire nerf.
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  4. #84
    tanks out dpsing DPS is plain old, bad design, if dps were "suddenly " able to tank mobs for long duratons of boss fights there would be a @#$%storm coming from tanks about the subject.

    look and think how it would be if the situation was reversed.

    tanks should tank, dps should do the majority of the damage.

    there would be so many threads of compaints from tank types if suddenly other roles could tank i.e "why am i needed?, why can dps tank now,wah wha wah, etc"

    but its not ok for dps to complain about tank dps?

    ummm yeah....ok

  5. #85
    B-but what will we do when our shield slams no longer hit for 400k? ::raises a fist in protest::

  6. #86
    Been a tank since launch and i hate it.

    The reason it was added was because they couldnt control dps threat without making tanks OP in pvp.

    They even added that threat was insane yet they buffed everything to 500% threat and removed threat causing abilities and buffed vengeance.

  7. #87
    Seriously? You guys still don't get it?

    Gear scaling makes tank damage increase slower with every tier while DPS damage pushes ahead. This will not be a problem after the next tier is released.

    Hell, it's not even a problem now. This isn't a problem. I sincerely do not understand why anyone would complain about it. Does it make your game less fun to have a tank class beating you on DPS during the first tier? Are tanks going to start crying when guilds come back every tier from now and get all the top rankings with DPS classes?

    Get some common fucking sense.

  8. #88
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    World of Logs stuff. Don't hate!

    I'm just going to check World Of Logs. My personal opinion has been Tanks for some reason are a bit high. Now there could be a multitude of reasons for that. Bad rotation,lag,gear or being afk. I'm going to post World of Logs right now to see. I hope I'm doing this correctly so forgive me if I mess up. I'm only trying to contribute here.

    Mogu'Shan Vaults

    10 man Normal

    #1: Combat Rogue
    #2: Combat Rogue
    #3: Combat Rogue
    #4: Fire Mage
    #5: Combat Rogue
    #6: Balance Druid
    #7: Combat Rogue
    #8: Balance Druid
    #9: Combat Rogue
    #10: Arcane Mage


    Feng the Accursed

    #1: Arcane Mage
    #2: Affliction Warlock
    #3: Combat Rogue
    #4: Beastmaster Hunter
    #5:Arcane Mage
    #6: Affliction Lock
    #7: Enhancement Shaman
    #8: Arcane Mage
    #9: Arcane Mage
    #10: Fury Warrior

    Gara'Jal the Spiritbinder

    #1: Arcane Mage
    #2: Arcane Mage
    #3: Beastmaster Hunter
    #4: Beastmaster Hunter
    #5: Balance Druid
    #6: Enhancement Shaman
    #7: Affliction Warlock
    #8: Assassination Rogue
    #9: Arcane Mage
    #10: Fire Mage

    The Spirit Kings

    #1: Arcane Mage
    #2: Arcane Mage
    #3: Arcane Mage
    #4: Arcane Mage
    #5: Arcane Mage
    #6: Arcane Mage
    #7: Arcane Mage
    #8: Affliction Warlock
    #9: Arcane Mage
    #10: Arcane Mage

    Elegon

    #1: Affliction Warlock
    #2: Affliction Warlock
    #3: Unholy Death Knight
    #4: Unholy Death Knight
    #5: Arcane Mage
    #6 Affliction Warlock
    #7: Affliction Warlock
    #8: Affliction Warlock
    #9: Affliction Warlock
    #10: Affliction Warlock

    Will of the Emperor

    #1: Affliction Warlock
    #2: Affliction Warlock
    #3: Affliction Warlock
    #4: Affliction Warlock
    #5: Affliction Warlock
    #6: Affliction Warlock
    #7: Shadow Priest
    #8: Affliction Warlock
    #9: Affliction Warlock
    #10: Affliction Warlock

    Heart of Fear

    Imperial Vizier Zor'lok

    #1: Arcane Mage
    #2: Affliction Warlock
    #3: Fire Mage
    #4: Arcane Mage
    #5: Arcane Mage
    #6: Prot Paladin
    #7: Fire Mage
    #8: Arcane Mage
    #9: Arcane Mage
    #10: Feral Druid

    Blade Lord Ta'yak

    #1: Arcane Mage
    #2: Fire Mage
    #3: Arcane Mage
    #4: Feral Druid
    #5: Beastmaster Hunter
    #6: Affliction Lock
    #7: Affliction Lock
    #8: Arcane Mage
    #9: Arcane Mage
    #10: Fury Warrior

    Garalon

    #1: Combat Rogue
    #2: Frost Death Knight
    #3: Combat Rogue
    #4: Fury Warrior
    #5: Combat Rogue
    #6: Combat Rogue
    #7: Combat Rogue
    #8: Combat Rogue
    #9: Combat Rogue
    #10: Combat Rogue

    Wind Lord Mel'Jarak

    #1: Protection Paladin
    #2: Brewmaster Monk
    #3: Brewmaster Monk
    #4: Protection Warrior
    #5: Brewmaster Monk
    #6: Brewmaster Monk
    #7: Brewmaster Monk
    #8: Brewmaster Monk
    #9: Guardian Druid
    #10: Protection Paladin

    Amber-Shaper Un-Sok
    #10: Fire Mage
    #9: Fire Mage
    #8: Fire Mage
    #7: Fire Mage
    #6: Fire Mage
    #5: Fire Mage
    #4: Fire Mage
    #3: Fire Mage
    #2: Fire Mage
    #1: Fire Mage(Yeah wrong order but I was rushing this one)

    Grand Empress Sheek'zeer

    #1: Protection Paladin
    #2: Protection Paladin
    #3: Protection Paladin
    #4: Guardian Druid
    #5: Guardian Druid
    #6: Protection Paladin
    #7: Brewmaster Monk
    #8: Brewmaster Monk
    #9: Guardian Druid
    #10: Guardian Druid

    Terrance of Endless Springs

    Protectors of the Endless

    #1: Fire Mage
    #2: Combat Rogue
    #3: Fire Mage
    #4: Fire Mage
    #5: Fire Mage
    #6: Fire Mage
    #7: Fire Mage
    #8: Fire Mage
    #9: Fire Mage
    #10: Fire Mage

    Hard Mode Protectors

    #1: Fire Mage
    #2: Fire Mage
    #3: Arcane Mage
    #4: Fire Mage
    #5: Fire Mage
    #6: Affliction Warlock
    #7: Brewmaster Monk
    #8: Fire Mage
    #9: Arcane Mage
    #10: Affliction Warlock

    Tsulong

    #1: Arcane Mage
    #2: Arcane Mage
    #3: Protection Paladin
    #4: Arcane Mage
    #5: Arcane Mage
    #6: Protection Paladin
    #7: Fire Mage
    #8: Arcane Mage
    #9: Arcane Mage
    #10: Frost Death KNight

    Lei Shi

    #1: Protection Paladin
    #2: Arcane Mage
    #3: Arcane Mage
    #4: Elemental Shaman
    #5: Arcane Mage
    #6: Arcane Mage
    #7: Fury Warrior
    #8: Fury Warrior
    #9: Arcane Mage
    #10: Arcane Mage

    Sha of Fear

    #1: Affliction Warlock
    #2: Arcane Mage
    #3: Affliction Warlock
    #4: Affliction Warlock
    #5: Affliction Warlock
    #6: Arcane Mage
    #7: Affliction Warlock
    #8: Affliction Warlock
    #9: Affliction Warlock
    #10: Balance Druid

    And that's all of the raids. On 10 man. Sorry my hands are tired. I'd do 10 man heroic but yeah.. 25 man normal and 25 man heroic are going to be different but /shrug
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  9. #89
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    I sincerely do not understand why anyone would complain about it.
    Apologies for "meme arrows".
    >Be Survival
    >Get beaten on the charts by a Prot Warrior
    >Feel like you are forced to play Marksmanship even though you hate it

    Copy-paste for other double- and triple-DPS spec classes.
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  10. #90
    The only 2 heroic fights our tank does top DPS on is Wind Lord and Grand Empress. That is to be expected due to the nature of the fights. Every other heroic fight the DPS all beat the tank in DPS as they should.

    Its not 8 fights, stop talking out your arse.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Apologies for "meme arrows".
    >Be Survival
    >Get beaten on the charts by a Prot Warrior
    >Feel like you are forced to play Marksmanship even though you hate it

    Copy-paste for other double- and triple-DPS spec classes.
    Okay, so what about the part where I said that the next tier of gear is going to push DPS ahead? That subsequent tiers will leave tanks even further behind?

    Furthermore, everyone knows that tanks aren't DPS classes. You can't fill your raid with protection warriors and expect them all to be topping the charts. I don't even consider tank DPS on the meters to mean anything, except in the very highest ranking cases (because they do more than just their rotation). And, again, tanks won't be topping meters for long.

    So what's the problem? You don't have to play specs that you don't like just because a tank is beating you. I mean, if you're going to do more DPS as that spec, you either play it for THAT REASON, or you don't play it at all. I certainly don't change my spec just because another spec might get me a higher ranking than the tank.

    Listen up folks: Tanks aren't DPS classes. You have 1-2 of them in your raid and they can put out a lot of DPS right now. How about just ignoring their DPS since, you know, that's not what they're actively trying to do and stop comparing yourselves to them. If you are any good at your class, you're going to start pulling ahead of them almost universally in the next tier. if not then, then the tier after. Their numbers don't hurt you. Their DPS isn't a threat to your place in the raid. Get over it.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Tanks do everything, take dmg, position boss, dps boss. Healers heal, and dps do dps. Tanks are given far too much importance, and yes, healers and dps are just there to support tanks. MoP's raiding is nothing like any of the previous WoW versions.
    Uhm...

    First of all.

    We are NOT just "there", jackass. We have our role, we ARE important, more important than you as a dps, shocker. What happens if you're in a fight with 0 rezzes, two things need to be tanked, and a dps goes down? It'll slow you down, sure. Maybe one or two more dps go down, you're going to be slow if there's an enrage timer, but you can still do it. (This is assuming all of the healers stay up).

    What happens if ONE of those tanks goes down? You're royally fucked if it's nowhere near to being downed, a heavily plated dps may be able to pick up the slack for 5% or less of health, but if it's any higher, you're done.

    So yes, we ARE more important than you, we always have been, and we always will be.

    Get over it. You don't like it? Go play a tank.

    Infracted. Flaming isn't tolerated here
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-01-12 at 11:05 PM.

  13. #93
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    Uhm...

    First of all.

    We are NOT just "there", jackass. We have our role, we ARE important, more important than you as a dps, shocker. What happens if you're in a fight with 0 rezzes, two things need to be tanked, and a dps goes down? It'll slow you down, sure. Maybe one or two more dps go down, you're going to be slow if there's an enrage timer, but you can still do it. (This is assuming all of the healers stay up).

    What happens if ONE of those tanks goes down? You're royally fucked if it's nowhere near to being downed, a heavily plated dps may be able to pick up the slack for 5% or less of health, but if it's any higher, you're done.

    So yes, we ARE more important than you, we always have been, and we always will be.

    Get over it. You don't like it? Go play a tank.

    Uhhh Tanks are just as important as DPS. Take it easy there.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    /sigh.... when will people stop linking top 100 parses? That is not a valid sample. You should look at all parses. http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_Lord...10111111000000
    I'll fucking stop linking top 100 at any goddamned point where it doesn't matter or is invalid. The only point I'm making is that vengeance is topping meters- YOUR LINK SHOWS THE EXACT SAME GODDAMNED THING, SO SUPER DUPER.

    My point isn't "prot pallies on top!" versus "brewmasters better on average", which is the kind of fine fucking point you can get to by switching. The point is simple: the five top specs on this fight are the five specs that have vengeance.

    So please don't derail that uselessly. The discussion is about, is that ok, should it be like that, etc. I'm opposed to it because I feel that if I set up a shit lot of gear and line up everything, that shouldn't be effortlessly topped by a dumb mechanic, vengeance, that buffs like some aoe bleed or something, on something as generic as "more than about three mobs". I'm well aware that you can't just stack a bunch of tanks and it's not really a balance issue- it's just damned silly that tanks top meters everywhere in this whole game except for single target raids. That's a lot of content where "builds vengeance" is the biggest power you can have, and I would argue it breaks class and spec perception except amongst habitual raiders- and even they get it sort of rubbed in their face. If your power is "spreads serpent sting", and that's the only time your aoe really goes up, it's silly that it is clearly topped by "I have tank rotation, tank gear, survival buttons, and also I'm blowing away your damage because I get this awesome buff that you can't have only meeeeeeeee".


    Not a balance issue. A perception issue, a morale issue. A poor solution to things that weren't really a problem.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I'll fucking stop linking top 100 at any goddamned point where it doesn't matter or is invalid. The only point I'm making is that vengeance is topping meters- YOUR LINK SHOWS THE EXACT SAME GODDAMNED THING, SO SUPER DUPER.

    My point isn't "prot pallies on top!" versus "brewmasters better on average", which is the kind of fine fucking point you can get to by switching. The point is simple: the five top specs on this fight are the five specs that have vengeance.

    So please don't derail that uselessly. The discussion is about, is that ok, should it be like that, etc. I'm opposed to it because I feel that if I set up a shit lot of gear and line up everything, that shouldn't be effortlessly topped by a dumb mechanic, vengeance, that buffs like some aoe bleed or something, on something as generic as "more than about three mobs". I'm well aware that you can't just stack a bunch of tanks and it's not really a balance issue- it's just damned silly that tanks top meters everywhere in this whole game except for single target raids. That's a lot of content where "builds vengeance" is the biggest power you can have, and I would argue it breaks class and spec perception except amongst habitual raiders- and even they get it sort of rubbed in their face. If your power is "spreads serpent sting", and that's the only time your aoe really goes up, it's silly that it is clearly topped by "I have tank rotation, tank gear, survival buttons, and also I'm blowing away your damage because I get this awesome buff that you can't have only meeeeeeeee".


    Not a balance issue. A perception issue, a morale issue. A poor solution to things that weren't really a problem.

    Excellent points! Now, counter this one:

    What are you going to bitch about when Vengeance isn't enough to make tanks top the meters in the next tier? The tier after that? What are you going to do when you get more DPS out of the raid by solo-tanking a fight and bringing in a DPS that puts out more damage than a tank?

    Because that's what's coming. That's how vengeance is designed. It's a catchup mechanic. It's strong at the start of an expansion, but it gets progressively weaker as our gear improves, while DPS gets progressively stronger as their gear improves.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    We are NOT just "there", jackass. We have our role, we ARE important, more important than you as a dps, shocker.
    This is exactly the kind of attitude that vengeance and the wild powers Blizzard hands to tanks has caused.

    What happens if you're in a fight with 0 rezzes, two things need to be tanked, and a dps goes down? It'll slow you down, sure. Maybe one or two more dps go down, you're going to be slow if there's an enrage timer, but you can still do it. (This is assuming all of the healers stay up).
    Actually, no. If you are on challenging content, you should need people to be alive for it. We've killed bosses with evasion when both tanks are down, we've killed bosses by kiting when both tanks are down. We've had ferals go bear in the olden days and use heart of the wild in the modern times. Yea, on average it's easier to recover from a dps missing, because you have more dps and you might not be doing something that stretches them- for most guilds, mechanics are more limiting than dps, because they wait until they overgear fights before trying them. But that doesn't make the tank "more important".

  17. #97
    I'm not okay with vengeance. I just gave up on the fight against it. I find the whole mechanic, both as tank and as dps, obstructing, annoying, unnatural and too much handholding. The fact fights are now also based around insane tank dps is just proving how crazy this mechanic has become. They still haven't stopped it from scaling, even with the recent changes.

    But Blizzard and I just disagree on a fundamental level. Blizzard feels tanking should also be about doing damage (yes, this has been said). I think that's a role exclusive to dps. For me, tanking should be exclusively about holding threat and surviving. When I tank, it has never been about numbers. Sure, on high end progress fights, tanks may try to maximize their output. But that's not what the role, imo, is inherently about.

    So that's why I'm not okay with vengeance, but gave up on arguing it. Blizzard sees the tanking role differently than I do.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-01-12 at 08:18 PM.

  18. #98
    Stood in the Fire Chuckadoodle's Avatar
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    So freaking what... Raids are a collaborative effort.. if bosses die we all get shiny loot and progression continues what is the big deal. Are you saying your role is in jeopardy as a DPS because of vengeance.. it isnt, only the active tank gets vengeance. Are your ego's that big that team efforts are trivialized by this mechanic??
    Ideally no one has ever hit the level cap of the last expansion, looked at their dungeon blues, and thought "I win."

  19. #99
    Still waiting for OP's armory link...
    Monk: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...feroz/advanced
    Druid: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lhorn/advanced
    When going from a druid to a monk... You have to remember what a mount is... and how to use them...
    And, when going back to a Druid from a monk, you relish in the awesomeness that is Swift Flight Form!

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    My point is not about how they out dps on 3 fights. It's how tanking speccs are doing more dps then half the dps speccs.
    Haven't seen any fight outside of those 3 when the tanks would do more dps than any of our dps.

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