How can people be ok with Vengeance?

[Deleted]

Only applies to some fights and circumstances, not all. It's fine as it is, just wish they didn't put the cap back on it :s

[Deleted]

Open your eyes and look past the top 10. There are ranks below top 10. Stop acting stupid.

*sigh* Okay, I'll humor you.

Protectors of the Endless: First tank at place 255
Tsulong: First tanks at place 3 and 5, next one at 270 (makes me think that those two did... something)
Lei Shi: First tank at place 1, next one at 319...
Sha of Fear: First tank at wooping 917

Imperial Vizier Zor'lok: First tank at place 6, next one at a wooping 1224
Blade Lord Ta'yak: First tank somewhere beyong place 1000 (to lazy to look further)
Garalon: I'm not going to search here. Tanks do hardly any damage at all.
Wind Lord Mel'jarak: Also not gonna bother
Amber-Shaper Un'sok: First tank at place 34, next one at 43, next one at 158, next one at 422
Grand Empress Shek'zeer: First DD at place 17, next one at 19, next ones at 22-29, it gets even from that point on, with more and more DPS.

The Stone Guard: First tank at 12, next one at 20, next ones 26 and 33 and 41, 43, 47. A few tanks up there, but only a few.
Feng the Accursed: First tank at 554
Gara'jal the Spiritbinder: First tank at somewhere beyond 1000.
The Spirit Kings: First tank at beyond. 1000.
Elegon: Urgh.. huge damage buff for DPS.. not gonna bother
Will of the Emperor: First tanks at 179 and 181 after a million Affliction locks. Next one at 344.

So, looks like tanks only really dominate one fight.

I see a lot more fights dominated by fire and arcane mages and affliction locks.

I stand by my "It's not Vengeance, it's a learn to play issue".

[Hakto]

@OP, your thread is titled 'how can people be OK with vengeance', when you really mean 'how can people be ok with being out dps'ed by a tank'

Well firstly being 'ok' with something does not mean thinking it can't be improved upon, but generally speaking vengeance is fine because tanks rarely beat dps except on gimmicky fights and we're ok with that.

Secondly you should probably look more at yourself if you are being beaten by tanks on that many fights.

[Resentful]

Snip

Don't humor him educate him I'm just saying cause you know he lost all his respect apparently losing to a tank CUZ VENGENCEEEEEEEEEEE

learn2play issue once again.

[Terielx1]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/

You need to look at the ranks again and look at each specc on each fight individually rahter then then just looking at the top 10 which noramlly shows Tanks, Arcance mages, Aff locks and rogues.

no YOU need to look at the ranks again.. i went over each individual fight from stone guard to Sha and the only fights i saw tanks in the top five were 4th boss and last boss in heart of fear, and a brewmaster was 5th or 6th on will of the emperor, every other fight they were back at the bottom of ALL 25 PLAYERS and the dps were smoking the tanks. so your either your logic or your counting skills are wrong because that makes only 3/16 fights where tanks are out dpsing people who arent tanks not 8. if your going to link Proof make sure it doesn't prove the point your OPPOSITION is trying to make

[Yohassakura]

As a tank, I think that blizzard should definitely change vengeance as it's not really a good mechanic. And no, it hasn't suddenly crept up on us... I believe it was implemented on the Cata pre-patch.

That said, if a tank beats you on most encounters, then you just suck balls.

MSV:

Guardians - We don't have a "main tank". We just swap one dog constantly, so neither tank is particularly high on damage (or at least not as high as others).
Feng - There's some mechanics where we out DPS the DPS, big deal.
Gara'jal - DPS should top easily.
Spirit Kings - A fair bit of movement, which favors melee and some of the hard hits spike tanks vengeance, tanks still should come bottom (unless you suck).
Elegon - DPS should come top
Will of the Emperor - DPS are normally busy CCing / killing adds, whereas the tanks get a nice bonus attack if they're pro and can dodge opportunistic strikes. Melee can out-dps tanks if they get enough chances.

HoF:

Vizier - DPS
Tay'ak - DPS (not my fault if you die)
Garalon - DPS
Wind Lord - Tanks (Guess who got world #1 monk on normal mode)
Amber Shaper Un'sok - DPS (You should be in the construct for longer than tanks, and with more debuffs on the boss)
Empress - I've had a DPS beat me on normal mode http://worldoflogs.com/reports/dbehz...=11129&e=11614

ToES:

Protectors - DPS (unless your tank is sponging 3 mobs and using AoE when there's no need!)
Tsu'long - DPS
Lei Shi - DPS
Sha of Fear - DPS

So, maybe 5 fights a tank beats GOOD DPS. They're all gimmicky fights where a tank out-dps' an actual DPS. Get over it.

If I see you in LFR, do expect to get your face smashed though... I tend to come top as tank because they're worse geared than me, afk, playing alts, or are just plain bad normally.

-----

If you're complaining about DPS not being important enough, then ask blizzard to make tougher enrage timers. Then you'll be crying because you won't be able to make it.

If you're still not happy - roll a tank and see what bullshit you have to put up with.

[Firebert]

OH MY GOD!!! CATA SUCKED CUZ WE HAD TANKS IN THE TOP 10!!!

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Firelands/dps/

Firelands was Patch 4.2 and was released on the 28th of June.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pgcqh26xxtoyguz9/
Top DPS for Rhyolith is a Blood DK, done on the 27/3. Patch 4.3.3 was out on the 28th of February. Patch 4.3 was out on the 29th of November and was the Dragon Soul patch.

This guy had 4 months of the next tier: of course he was going to top the chart.

Unless you can find an example, possibly with the exception of Baleroc, your assertion is hilariously out of date.

[Luciferstwin]

*sigh* Okay, I'll humor you.

Protectors of the Endless: First tank at place 255
Tsulong: First tanks at place 3 and 5, next one at 270 (makes me think that those two did... something)
Lei Shi: First tank at place 1, next one at 319...
Sha of Fear: First tank at wooping 917

Imperial Vizier Zor'lok: First tank at place 6, next one at a wooping 1224
Blade Lord Ta'yak: First tank somewhere beyong place 1000 (to lazy to look further)
Garalon: I'm not going to search here. Tanks do hardly any damage at all.
Wind Lord Mel'jarak: Also not gonna bother
Amber-Shaper Un'sok: First tank at place 34, next one at 43, next one at 158, next one at 422
Grand Empress Shek'zeer: First DD at place 17, next one at 19, next ones at 22-29, it gets even from that point on, with more and more DPS.

The Stone Guard: First tank at 12, next one at 20, next ones 26 and 33 and 41, 43, 47. A few tanks up there, but only a few.
Feng the Accursed: First tank at 554
Gara'jal the Spiritbinder: First tank at somewhere beyond 1000.
The Spirit Kings: First tank at beyond. 1000.
Elegon: Urgh.. huge damage buff for DPS.. not gonna bother
Will of the Emperor: First tanks at 179 and 181 after a million Affliction locks. Next one at 344.

So, looks like tanks only really dominate one fight.

I see a lot more fights dominated by fire and arcane mages and affliction locks.

I stand by my "It's not Vengeance, it's a learn to play issue".

Props for actually taking time to look to prove him wrong lol

[Raxxed]

Well.. as a tank I only top dps on.. let see.. Heroic windlord and Heroic will.
I guess I just play with competent dps who spend more time researching than complaining.
If you get outdpsed by tanks on anything other than those two fights you're doing something seriously wrong.

Oh, and 25man bosses give more vengeance, yet still only 2 our tanks are topping.

Yep.

@People looking at those logs and seeing tank rankings, anyone who takes raiding seriously knows that a huge amount of logs are cheated to increase rankings.

Giving tanks stacks at the start on heroic protectors.
Popping raid cds instead of swapping the dogs on stone guards.
Leishi, aoe tanking the adds with cds

Vengeance is fine. Topping on TWO fights legitimately is nothing.

[Tokru]

*sigh* Okay, I'll humor you.

Protectors of the Endless: First tank at place 255
.
.
.

I stand by my "It's not Vengeance, it's a learn to play issue".

But open your eyes and look past the top 1000! There are ranks below top 1000!

[Luciferstwin]

Firelands was Patch 4.2 and was released on the 28th of June.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pgcqh26xxtoyguz9/
Top DPS for Rhyolith is a Blood DK, done on the 27/3. Patch 4.3.3 was out on the 28th of February. Patch 4.3 was out on the 29th of November and was the Dragon Soul patch.

This guy had 4 months of the next tier: of course he was going to top the chart.

Unless you can find an example, possibly with the exception of Baleroc, your assertion is hilariously out of date.

You mean like bitching about vengeance 2 months after the current raids have been out?

[Hakto]

These logs never had tanks in the top 10, or 100 or 1000 or 10000 or more. Because surprise surprise, tanks didn't do the damage they are doing right now.

Incorrect, blood dk's were top on ultraxion for a while.

Tank damage on Alysrazor and Rhy wants a word as well.

Regardless you completely missed my point, completely.

[Firebert]

It's fine as it is, just wish they didn't put the cap back on it :s

That level 80 Paladin that's got the first boss of Mogu'shan Vaults down: I'm sure feels the same way. Lol.

[nightfalls]

Another thing DPS whiners fail to realize is having those high veng numbers make it more fun to tank. This is important because tanking numbers have always been low, by far the least represented role people play, and blizzard is always trying to come up with incentives to make them more appealing and fun to play. This is part of that.

This is no different than the DPSers pulling on their mothers' dresses and crying that they have to wait so long in queue for dungeons and demanding blizzard fix it. It wasn't something that could just be "fixed" because you can't force people to play what is needed. Every DPS that was crying about the problem was PART OF the problem by not playing tanks or healers but expecting other people to for their own benefit. So blizzard adds goodie bags for tanks and occasionally healers when they're needed, then DPS community gets up in arms about that saying how unfair it is to give tanks more rewards, etc, yadda yadda, wha wha.

Vengeance is just the latest thing DPS want to cry about. They want the entire game to revolve around them and specifically their fun and what they are doing only. They expect tanks and healers to be there for no other purpose than to facilitate them pulling big numbers on bosses. Then when they lose their e-peen dps race to a tank because of how the fight is designed, they rage and cry about it endlessly about how it isnt right that anyone else should ever be able to have fun doing big numbers unless they are DPSers themselves, which would just drive more people to DPS roles and away from tanking, making the world worse for prettymuch everybody.

You can't have it both ways. Tanks need some fun too, and a lot of them that play these days are more attracted to the role because of those numbers. If you take that away, tank pops WILL drop and that will negatively affect everyone. And for what? So you can say a tank didn't beat you on the dps meter? Give me a break. Grow up and get a clue, stop complaining about something so unimportant. Your dps isnt going to go up anymore just because someone else's goes down.

These ego contests from both tanks and DPS (yes, you and yes, the OP as well) make me so glad I switched to healing.

[alucardtnuoc]

OH MY GOD!!! CATA SUCKED CUZ WE HAD TANKS IN THE TOP 10!!!

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Firelands/dps/

Well to be fair, both fights where the tanks are ranked are fights where they can gimick it.

As i looked at all top 10s, only normal mode has ranked tanks. That's on Alysrazor and Lord Rhyolith.

Rhyolith was because of all the AOE the blood tank did, with blood boil and heart strike.

Alysrazor has adds which take % damage increase, often on normal you can 1 tank it and cleave them down for insane damage.

Just like now on a few fights which are add heavy and deal TONS of damage, more damage taken = more vengeance. But the tank should only be beating dps on a couple fights, unless they're doing something like wearing full dps gear to increase their incomming damage for more vengeance.

[Mindark]

Well to be fair, both fights where the tanks are ranked are fights where they can gimick it.

As i looked at all top 10s, only normal mode has ranked tanks. That's on Alysrazor and Lord Rhyolith.

Rhyolith was because of all the AOE the blood tank did, with blood boil and heart strike.

Alysrazor has adds which take % damage increase, often on normal you can 1 tank it and cleave them down for insane damage.

Just like now on a few fights which are add heavy and deal TONS of damage, more damage taken = more vengeance. But the tank should only be beating dps on a couple fights, unless they're doing something like wearing full dps gear to increase their incomming damage for more vengeance.

DPS gear increases damage output, it doesn't not increase the incoming damage.

[Firebert]

You mean like bitching about vengeance 2 months after the current raids have been out?

That doesn't follow what I said. If you mean that "bitching about vengeance two months after the current raids have been out" is hilariously out of date, then you're entitled to that opinion, but it's safe to say that most of us would accept that a two-month polling period for current raids would be more than enough to judge whether it's over the top of not. Blizzard would catch tanks doing huge DPS within minutes of it occuring to prevent World Firsts disappearing under imbalance, however.

[Luciferstwin]

Well to be fair, both fights where the tanks are ranked are fights where they can gimick it.

Exactly. Hes naming fights where there are "gimicks" to beef up our numbers. Albeit with Adds, or mechanics such as reversal with Feng. A straight up 1v1 boss fight with no adds nor mechanics, a DPS that knows how to play their class will outdamage a tank.

[Braindwen]

wearing full dps gear to increase their incomming damage for more vengeance.

That wouldn't affect vengeance gain.

It would affect DPS, yes, but not vengeance.

[Firebert]

DPS gear increases damage output, it doesn't not increase the incoming damage.

This. Vengeance is a percentage of the unmitigated incoming damage; what gear you're wearing doesn't affect it.