How can people be ok with Vengeance?

[Kolo]

I'm glad the DPS I raid with learned to do damage instead of crying about a couple of AOE fights.

[Azrile]

Biggest thing people fail to remember when talking about this issue, is that DPS will continue to increase their DPS throughout the remaining raid tiers in MoP. Tanks will increase their survivability/mitigation as time goes on, and there's a pretty finite amount of DTPS that bliz can tune encounters around, since they don't want to return to the Wrath philosophy of a boss being able to kill a tank in two hits w/o a heal, because it limited raid encounter mechanics, especially in a 10-player raid where you generally only run with 2 healers for most fights.


All in all, DPS will constantly increase their DPS, while tanks will more than likely stay around where they are now, without a major increase on most fights, as they will aim to be taking less damage, and because they can only take so much damage before dying anyways (spike-damage aside). Thus the current levels of vengeance you are seeing today, should be similar to what you see in T15 raids onward. (with an obvious slight increase as you go, as bosses WILL hit harder due to higher HP levels, but not to an exponential extent)

This is exactly why stupid people should not be allowed to look at sites that give raw data without the intelligence to correctly interpret that data. Tank DPS is the best it will ever be right now (relative to dps specs). Even with that said, it still is being propped up by a few bosses that have tank-dps friendly mechanisms.

But I am pretty sure next tier the OP will be back here crying about some other dps spec that is OP.....

[stomination]

as long as the boss dies.

[Otiswhitaker]

Why the hell would anyone care if a tank was doing more damage? I don't get it. Is it some sort of epeen thing? I can't imagine a guild of comrades would care about this unless they were mentally broken people, or maybe had some sort of disturbing obsession with numbers rather than fun :x

[Adam Jensen]

Let me understand this correctly - the tanks, who traditionally do very little damage, are now hitting pretty hard and actively contributing to bringing the boss down faster... and somehow this is a bad thing?

Well sure, it makes my shadow priest's epeen wilt.

[darkwarrior42]

Out of curiosity: Were people upset by tank damage back in ICC when we were fighting Festergut? Or on Alysrazor when Tanks were doing obscene numbers against the hatchlings? There are a few other old examples, but those are the first two that come to mind.

I understand that it's not a good design to have tanks always beating DPS, but considering that the AREN'T always beating dps, I don't really see the issue. There are specific fights where tanks are doing more damage, but that's been the case for a long time.

[howdydiddlydoo]

That wouldn't affect vengeance gain.

It would affect DPS, yes, but not vengeance.

Wearing dps gear rather than tank gear does in fact increase your vengeance gain.

[darkwarrior42]

Why the hell would anyone care if a tank was doing more damage? I don't get it. Is it some sort of epeen thing? I can't imagine a guild of comrades would care about this unless they were mentally broken people, or maybe had some sort of disturbing obsession with numbers rather than fun :x

The point, when you're talking about logical design and not emotional reaction, is that it's not a good idea for a damage specialist to be routinely unable to do as much damage as a tank... or more generally, if character A is a specialist, character B should not be able to routinely out-perform character A in his chosen specialty unless character B is also a specialist. That's the point of specializing in the first place: you give up power and ability in other areas of performance to maximize your performance in a specific field/area.

However, it's less of an issue with vengeance because even if a tank can theoretically out-do a dps by stacking a ton of vengeance, it still requires strong enough healing to keep them up through the damage (so really, it's a dps being out-done by a tank+healer), and there's a finite amount of damage going out. You can't start swapping out dps for more tanks and expect a net damage increase because those new tanks just won't be taking the damage needed to stack that much vengeance.

[Voyager]

Out of curiosity: Were people upset by tank damage back in ICC when we were fighting Festergut? Or on Alysrazor when Tanks were doing obscene numbers against the hatchlings?

Those were artificial dps boosts, not inherent to tanks as it is now.

[Braindwen]

Wearing dps gear rather than tank gear does in fact increase your vengeance gain.

By the way vengeance works, no, it doesn't.
It may in fact be buggy with respect to avoidance, but it's intended that avoided hits give full vengeance. Armor definitely doesn't affect it, either, and neither does block or any of that.

The only way to get more vengeance is to stand in void zones (Stone Guard, Pheromone trails on Garalon, etc.), get more debuff stacks (e.g. elegon, Tsulong), etc. Gear should not affect it at all.

[Skarssen]

I want my role and respect back.

Not sure if you realize this, but you are playing a video game. The word "respect" seems really silly in this instance

[Adam Jensen]

I'm sorry that you've experienced such braindead healers and dps.

We have a blood DK who does more healing on trash than the healers (but not on bosses.)

But then, when we're doing trash, I think our three healers are just twiddling thumbs and throwing the occasional Prayer of Mending/Rejuv/etc.

[howdydiddlydoo]

By the way vengeance works, no, it doesn't.
It may in fact be buggy with respect to avoidance, but it's intended that avoided hits give full vengeance. Armor definitely doesn't affect it, either, and neither does block or any of that.

There is no bug. You have just misinterpreted it. Vengeance stacks when you take damage.

[Rivin]

There is no bug. You have just misinterpreted it. Vengeance stacks when you take damage.

Vengeance is calculated based on the damage before anything is factored in. That includes armor and other damage reduction effects. Thus, it's entirely based on the boss's attacks and not on the tank's gear at all.

[Braindwen]

There is no bug. You have just misinterpreted it. Vengeance stacks when you take damage.

It's based on pre-mitigation damage.
Mitigating more of it through avoidance, armor, blood shield, stagger, block, ShoR, defensive CDs, basically everything tanks have to reduce incoming damage does not affect vengeance at all.

[howdydiddlydoo]

It's based on pre-mitigation damage.
Mitigating more of it through avoidance, armor, blood shield, stagger, block, ShoR, defensive CDs, basically everything tanks have to reduce incoming damage does not affect vengeance at all.

Avoidance is not mitigation.

Vengeance stacks when you take damage. It is working as intended that you don't get vengeance when you avoid because you didn't take any damage.

Dps gear stacks vengeance faster because it has less avoidance.

By definition and tooltip, totally working correctly.

[Braindwen]

You do get vengeance when you avoid.
It would only be bugged if you didn't, considering it's been stated that you're intended to get vengeance on avoids.

Druids would probably be using SD a whole hell of a lot less often if that 50% dodge counted against our vengeance.

[Rivin]

Avoidance is not mitigation.

Vengeance stacks when you take damage. It is working as intended that you don't get vengeance when you avoid because you didn't take any damage.

Dps gear stacks vengeance faster because it has less avoidance.

By definition and tooltip, totally working correctly.

The problem with that logic is that none of the tanks stack avoidance. Most of it comes from strength or agility, or from effects that you'd have as a tank regardless of gear. DPS gear tends to have more strength or agility from gems and enchants, so the extra avoidance from those stats would compensate for most of the avoidance stats on tanking gear. If there's any loss of avoidance from switching gear, it would probably not be large enough to make much difference.

[howdydiddlydoo]

The problem with that logic is that none of the tanks stack avoidance. Most of it comes from strength or agility, or from effects that you'd have as a tank regardless of gear. DPS gear tends to have more strength or agility from gems and enchants, so the extra avoidance from those stats would compensate for most of the avoidance stats on tanking gear. If there's any loss of avoidance from switching gear, it would probably not be large enough to make much difference.

Don't know how much of a difference it makes. Not really interested either Just explaining the mechanics to those who didn't quite understand it correctly.

Tanking gear might have 5% to 10% more avoidance perhaps? That equates to 5% to 10% faster vengeance gain using dps gear.

[Tokiii]

People complain alot about meters, but meters are not a official part of WoW, Blizzard doesnt and will NOT balance the game around what a meter says, they simply balance the dps vs other dps, and healers with healers, the issue here is well...there is no issue, no one stacks tanks and a tank still needs to do good damage to be able to function in everything else that isent a raid, or did you forget there's more to WoW than just raiding? IE: Questing, pvp, gathering(skinning, farming disenchantables) and not everyone wishes to spec dps to accomplish these aspects

If the boss is dying, and there isent 15 tanks dpsing in a raid, there's is simply no issue, and all it is it jealousy about someone having a bigger number in a video game