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  1. #301
    The only difference dps gear would make to tank DPS is the addition of haste/crit and the str/agi gems. The gear itself does not affect how vengeance is calculated.
    ---------------------------
    FuriousG

  2. #302
    Roll a Tank.

    Do big Numbers.

    ???

    Profit.

    Who cares if a Tank is winning on some fights, let them. Your DPS is STILL needed. So it isn't as if you are any less important than the tank in the fight anyway.

    Just seems like QQing because people have their e-peen hurt because they aren't #1

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 01:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by FuriousG View Post
    The only difference dps gear would make to tank DPS is the addition of haste/crit and the str/agi gems. The gear itself does not affect how vengeance is calculated.
    Well it kind of does, since Better gear = more Stam, meaning Higher Vengeance.
    Bow down before our new furry overlords!

  3. #303
    DPS gear of the same item level has the same amount of stam though, but yes
    ---------------------------
    FuriousG

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by krethos View Post
    Well it kind of does, since Better gear = more Stam, meaning Higher Vengeance.
    We'd have to be reaching the max health cap for that to matter, and the situations where that happens are very few and far between. And in those situations, you're dying so quickly that wearing DPS gear would be a hillariously poor choice.

  5. #305
    Moderator Kerdoz's Avatar
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    What choice do you have? Either you are okay with it. Or you can quit. DPS isnt everything

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokiii View Post
    People complain alot about meters, but meters are not a official part of WoW, Blizzard doesnt and will NOT balance the game around what a meter says, they simply balance the dps vs other dps, and healers with healers...
    Respectfully, they balance around the potential they measure within each of the classes and specs. They may not balance around the specific meters we use, but that's just quibbling over semantics; they balance over the output and power of each spec, and that means the measured output of those specs is relevant and meaningful. I agree that vengeance isn't conceptually a problem, just not because of the reasons you cited

    @Voyager: I do realize that, and I acknowledge the difference... mostly I'm trying to get a feel for whether it's a result of the tank doing damage at all that's causing people to be upset, or simply because it's something that no longer requires a specific buff/debuff unique to the encounter to reach those levels of damage. Given that it doesn't seem like fights involving such buffs/debuffs make people upset, the question then becomes: Are tanks actually regularly out-dpsing DPS specialists on regular non-gimmick fights? (As an example, I consider Wind Lord to be a gimmick fight, as it involves a large amount of AoE.... and I was out-damaging DPS specialists in TBC on a prot pally, before vengeance was ever dreamed of, so it's clearly not a good measure.) If the answer is actually yes, THEN we can debate how much of a problem it actually is. I just posed the question to remind people that tanks have been out-damaging DPS on specific fights for a long time, so that we can try to narrow down the exact nature of the problem and why it may or may not be an issue.



    As another question, how would people feel about Vengeance scaling off of healing received instead of damage done? Assume (even if such a thing is impossible) that it were balanced in such a way that it resulted in numbers roughly comparable to what we see today on single-target fights. In that case, tanks would still be doing large numbers, but would be explicitly dependent on their healers for it.

    Alternatively, what if the vengeance scaling were based on how much threat the dps generated? The further ahead of the dps the tank is on threat, the less damage dealt; the closer the dps get in threat, the more damage the tank does. Such a system would accomplish Vengeance's goal of allowing the tank's dps to scale to prevent threat creep (far more directly), and would still increase the tank's dps... but in this case, the tank's dps gain would be directly tied to the strongest dps in the raid.

  7. #307
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    As another question, how would people feel about Vengeance scaling off of healing received instead of damage done? Assume (even if such a thing is impossible) that it were balanced in such a way that it resulted in numbers roughly comparable to what we see today on single-target fights. In that case, tanks would still be doing large numbers, but would be explicitly dependent on their healers for it.

    Alternatively, what if the vengeance scaling were based on how much threat the dps generated? The further ahead of the dps the tank is on threat, the less damage dealt; the closer the dps get in threat, the more damage the tank does. Such a system would accomplish Vengeance's goal of allowing the tank's dps to scale to prevent threat creep (far more directly), and would still increase the tank's dps... but in this case, the tank's dps gain would be directly tied to the strongest dps in the raid.
    Those both have major problems with them. The problem isn't the mechanic, nor is it average tank DPS on most fights.

    How about this solution: Reduce AP scaling on damage abilities by 50%, increase base damage on those same abilities by 300% (obviously numbers are an example, can be tweaked). Tank damage when questing and when initially picking up adds will increase. Tank damage when threat is established and maintained will decrease up to 50% on Wind Lord-type fights. Off-tanks will do more DPS. Average DPS on medium-vengeance fights will remain the same.

  8. #308
    It sounds an awful lot like you are mad you got kicked out of a raid because you were doing less dps than the tank. If you know how to play your class you should beat the tank in DPS even with vengeance. It makes it easier to tell the bads apart!

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by BaP View Post
    Than learn to play, of the tanks are beating you on most fights its your fault and you are just not playing to your full potential !!!!
    While the OP's ire may be (slightly) misdirected towards Vengeance, his complaint isn't inaccurate. Blizzard has made it part of the design, since Wrath, that tanks be able to DPS. This was done largely because tanks complained that they felt they weren't contributing enough (read to mean they wanted to see big numbers). Blizzard also felt that giving tanks viable DPS would make them more attractive to people who were on the fence about leveling one.

    Currently DK's and Brewmaster Monks produce very competitive DPS on just about all trash fights in both Vaults and HoF. On Boss fights, depending on the mechanics (number of adds, ect), they can be competitive. Generally, however, DPS SHOULD beat out tanks given an equal gear level on boss fights.

    And no I don't think there is a problem. Mostly because current raids mechanics are designed with the philosophy that tanks can also DPS (to an extent).

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Those both have major problems with them. The problem isn't the mechanic, nor is it average tank DPS on most fights.

    How about this solution: Reduce AP scaling on damage abilities by 50%, increase base damage on those same abilities by 300% (obviously numbers are an example, can be tweaked). Tank damage when questing and when initially picking up adds will increase. Tank damage when threat is established and maintained will decrease up to 50% on Wind Lord-type fights. Off-tanks will do more DPS. Average DPS on medium-vengeance fights will remain the same.
    this wouldn't work cause it would affect pvp.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotted View Post
    Its getting nerfed in 5.2, so it cant above a tank health a blue post said yesterday, so dw
    A level 90 tank will never, ever, ever cap its vengeance, ever. A tank would have to be taking far more damage than it could ever hope to live through in order to do so. The hotfix to cap vengeance at tank health was to fix level 80s tanking level 90 content. A level 90 tank has... what? 600k HP? 500? 450? 700? It doesn't matter, I've never even seen vengeance go over 140k yet.

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  12. #312
    Dreadlord Jawless Jones's Avatar
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    1) its being nerfed in 5.2

    2) why do you even care? as long as you down the boss you really shouldnt give a shit about numbers...

    3) did you not think that perhaps you are just a terrible DPS? or that the tank/s are amazingly geared?

    4) read the bottom part of my sig

    honestly, the e-peen flexing of some people borders on obscene...
    Last edited by Jawless Jones; 2013-01-13 at 05:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombiebob
    I'm still waiting on someone to tell me where all these people that suddenly care about Warrior balance were during Cataclysm when they were blow up dolls with plate armor on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cutterx2202 View Post
    Stop complaining to solve your lack of ability, and start reading and practicing to gain ability. Stop trying to bring people down to your level instead of striving to raise yours.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Seeing tanks topping meters and getting top ranks on WoL, beating dps my miles makes me sick.

    I don't want to play a support anymore, I want my role and respect back.
    Then stop going to WoL and uninstall your meter?
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  14. #314
    It's amazing how short sighted some of the people in this thread are; tanks doing high damage = higher raid dps = boss dies faster = healers are happier = raid gets loot. People who cry about meters in my guild get warned once, and if it happens again, the paladins set up a BoP rotation for them during heroism for physical dps and a priest life grip rotation for casters.

  15. #315
    Well, I know that Vengance sucks, but never happened our tanks had more DPS than we (10H group).

    Either your tank focus too much on dpsing and not surviving or you are not fully dpsing using your class advantage. I dont know thats the cause of your dps loss / that you are worse dps than your tank but, there is something wrong. IF you both have equally same items than you shall outperform tank.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by howdydiddlydoo View Post
    Avoidance is not mitigation.

    Vengeance stacks when you take damage. It is working as intended that you don't get vengeance when you avoid because you didn't take any damage.

    Dps gear stacks vengeance faster because it has less avoidance.

    By definition and tooltip, totally working correctly.
    I would like to point your attention to the video of the 80 Pally soloing MOP raids. If you watch the video, the pally takes very little damage. He is/was able to solo because of Vengeance. Your argument is invalid and your logic is flawed.

    And the reason tanks are picking up DPS gear and ignoring "traditional tank stats" is because of the new model of Active Mitigation. Currently, a prot paladin gets more survivability from Haste then from Dodge.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman2500 View Post
    It's amazing how short sighted some of the people in this thread are; tanks doing high damage = higher raid dps = boss dies faster = healers are happier = raid gets loot. People who cry about meters in my guild get warned once, and if it happens again, the paladins set up a BoP rotation for them during heroism for physical dps and a priest life grip rotation for casters.
    People in your raid are too whatever to use cancelaura hand macros ? Should be standard for everyone who played for a while.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-01-13 at 09:42 AM.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Yup, a very straight forward question. How can you be ok with vengeance? It gives tanks way too much AP and they are out dpsing alot of dps speccs, even on single target dps fights.
    No, they aren't. They are out DPSing terrible players, not specs as a whole. (With the exception of Monk tanks, they are OP)

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Zankoku View Post
    I would like to point your attention to the video of the 80 Pally soloing MOP raids. If you watch the video, the pally takes very little damage. He is/was able to solo because of Vengeance. Your argument is invalid and your logic is flawed.

    And the reason tanks are picking up DPS gear and ignoring "traditional tank stats" is because of the new model of Active Mitigation. Currently, a prot paladin gets more survivability from Haste then from Dodge.
    He didnt stack vengeance with avoidance. He stacked it with gear and ability mitigation.

    Im not quite sure why some people think avoidance and mitigation are the same thing.

  20. #320
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howdydiddlydoo View Post
    He didnt stack vengeance with avoidance. He stacked it with gear and ability mitigation.

    Im not quite sure why some people think avoidance and mitigation are the same thing.
    Avoiding an attack gives you vengeance as if you were hit by an average white hit (just like if you were hit, it works off unmitigated damage).

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