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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Avoiding an attack gives you vengeance as if you were hit by an average white hit (just like if you were hit, it works off unmitigated damage).
    And from this we can say that because dps gear has less avoidance, vengeance gain will be faster compared to using tank gear.

    Maybe someone can show the math to this?

  2. #322
    Legendary! Evil Inside's Avatar
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    If a tank is out-dpsing you, you're doing something very wrong.
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  3. #323
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Here I thought we play as a TEAM against bosses? To beat them? Now we argue about e-peen on dps meters?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  4. #324
    Personally I think that implementing Vengeance system was just plain stupid. Period.
    I don't really understand why of all roles tanks must get free AP everytime they are being hit. There is absolutely no logic in that.
    Let my healer get free SP each time I'm hit by aoe. For what reason? So I just can top my meters and outdps damage dealers with my smite, with further lols and humiliating.
    Back to good old times tanks had to manage their dps/threat by actual clever and skilled playing. Gearing dps stuff, learning to use proper rotations of skills and so on. Nowadays all the tank has to do to get tons of free damage burst is just stand there and receive hits in face. Not that in my raid tanks outdps damage dealers. No. But they are doing 70-80% of damage dealt by damage dealer class. That is just plain stupid. The same idiocy that was with healing of prot pala (and brewmaster nowadays).
    I think every role in raid should do only its role, and personally I don't like when another role is doing my work just because of crap game design. Tanks must receive hits in face, healers must heal, damage dealers must deal damage. Period. We already have all this kind of idiocy in WoW PvP, where healers are tanks, tanks are dd, and dd are healers. Please, don't spread this shit in PvE.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by b0sanac View Post
    If a tank is out-dpsing you, you're doing something very wrong.
    I assume you have never played Empress or Windlord. Especially on the latter you don't even have to put any effort into it.

  6. #326
    To get your respect back you need to do one thing: Learn to play. I haven't seen a tank top me on damage meter since I've hit level 90. Playing mage.

    When I played pally tank, before Vengeance ect. I topped dmg meter in 5 mans 100% of the time, was that better? I never understood the point of vengeance, threat was more fun when it mattered. When tanks had to work to gain it, and DPS had to be careful not to pull aggro.

    In raids I didn't win damage meter. And tanks these days certanly don't.

  7. #327
    Field Marshal EuBayonetta91's Avatar
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    u use the dmg u get and strike harder?
    and in any rpg i played a defensive character aka tank i still did alot of dmg

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by howdydiddlydoo View Post
    And from this we can say that because dps gear has less avoidance, vengeance gain will be faster compared to using tank gear.

    Maybe someone can show the math to this?
    Uh, no. He very clearly said that avoidance is totally irrelevant to vengeance. If you dodge or parry an attack that would have otherwise done 200k, you will get vengeance based on that 200k attack. DPS gear does NOT get you vengeance faster.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    I assume you have never played Empress or Windlord. Especially on the latter you don't even have to put any effort into it.
    did YOU ever tanked wind lord? In order to really put out big numbers you solo tank.
    Let me tell you its fucking stressfull. Not the DPS no but staying alive, rotating cds and using your class smart so healers are not oom after 1 minute.

    But hey it ok.
    Whine about tanks all day until we get our dps in half and 1000% aggro modifier.
    I wont be the one making threads begging blizzard to fix 1hr long random que for dps.
    I will still get my instant invite

  10. #330
    theres only two fights i get outdps'd by tanks windlord and shekzeer. whats the problem again?

  11. #331
    Why do you care so much if a member of your own raid out dpses you? Shouldn't that be a good thing? And due to mechanics it will only be 1-2 tanks doing it.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Uh, no. He very clearly said that avoidance is totally irrelevant to vengeance. If you dodge or parry an attack that would have otherwise done 200k, you will get vengeance based on that 200k attack. DPS gear does NOT get you vengeance faster.
    Nope.

    Vengaence has a prediction mechanic to it that will attempt to measure the average white hit that a boss does should you avoid it. This is based on a set swing timer that is not necessarily related to the boss swing timer.

    This prediction mechanic also ignores yellow attacks, meaning if you avoid one, you dont get the full amount of vengaence. I believe this is also limitied to a 60 second timer.


    It works nothing like how you described, and if you do the maths, you will find that the less avoidance you have, the faster you will gain vengaence.

  13. #333
    Stood in the Fire Augh's Avatar
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    I agree, reverting to resource starved avoidance tanking while doing shit damage is definitely the way to go. While we're at it, we can pick school immunities per tier out of a tombola, and bring back debuff caps.

    Did it occur to OP that your tanks doing good damage is actually pretty cool? If you're struggling to outdamage them currently, you don't have a prayer at meeting any significant enrage without them. It's worth taking into consideration, sadly.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by b0sanac View Post
    If a tank is out-dpsing you, you're doing something very wrong.
    Indeed unless its a gimmick fight like windlord.

    Also i like challenge from the ppl i raid with. And if someone is beating me im trying my best to catch up and beat them again. (While folowing tactics ofc)

    And the faster a boss dies the better


    Only playing casual in this game now. And damn it feels great.

  15. #335
    Here is the advice to OP from healer.

    Don't stay in fire.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Augh View Post
    I agree, reverting to resource starved avoidance tanking while doing shit damage is definitely the way to go. While we're at it, we can pick school immunities per tier out of a tombola, and bring back debuff caps.

    Did it occur to OP that your tanks doing good damage is actually pretty cool? If you're struggling to outdamage them currently, you don't have a prayer at meeting any significant enrage without them. It's worth taking into consideration, sadly.
    I personally believe they didnt implement vengaence for the reason they stated anyway.

    GC said it was so tank gear could roughly scale with dps gear in terms of threat generation. I believe this is a load of tosh. If they wanted to focus on scaling threat generation, they could of made vengaence a threat multiplier instead of an attack power multiplier.


    The REAL reason vengance was created was because tanks were becoming sparse and they used a "fun dps mechanic" (because most people like playing dps and seeing big numbers) to entice more players to play tanks.

    This has actually worked because LFD times are not tremendously long and the tanks in my guild love outdpsing dpsers on certain fights and ranking in WoL. They arent giving their tanks up anytime soon.

    Think of vengaence as a fun factor for tanks to encourage people to play this "thankless" role. It's also a very clever implementation because of the way that it only works on tanks that are actually tanking. This prevents guilds stacking tanks for dps gains.


    Thats the real reason vengance was implemented

  17. #337
    Stood in the Fire Augh's Avatar
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    @howdy - Not sure why you'd address that specifically to me, but given the choice between siding with GC and a forum random, I'd probably flip a coin. Try to take this as a positive/compliment.

    Didn't really need any such motivation to continue tanking, and luckily the decent tanks will continue to do it regardless. Now we just have another tool for carrying suspect DPS.

    Isn't much else to add to a thread such as this though, which I suspect wasn't actually an attempt to start a discussion in the first place, so...

  18. #338
    I am Murloc! Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howdydiddlydoo View Post
    And from this we can say that because dps gear has less avoidance, vengeance gain will be faster compared to using tank gear.

    Maybe someone can show the math to this?
    What the heck are you talking about? Vengeance is based off on the unmitigated damage taken to the tank. Meaning, gear has no effect on the amount of attack power the mechanic gives, at all.
    Last edited by Frozen Death Knight; 2013-01-13 at 01:47 PM.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    What the heck are you talking about? Vengeance is based off on the unmitigated damage taken to the tank. Meaning, gear has no effect on the mechanic, at all.
    Sigheee.

    Avoidance is not the same as mitigation.

    Different levels of avoidance DO change the pace at which vengaence stacks.


    Unbelievable how many people don't understand there is a difference between avoidance and mitigation. I thought this was just basic common sense knowledge? Wow.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Augh View Post
    @howdy - Not sure why you'd address that specifically to me, but given the choice between siding with GC and a forum random, I'd probably flip a coin. Try to take this as a positive/compliment.
    Well its a simple question of asking why vengaence was introduced.

    It seems logical to assume that if they only wanted it for threat purposes, they could of made vengaence a threat modifier instead of an attack power modifer.

    And I did say it's what I believe, i didnt say it was 5000% set in stone correct. I'm just working off logical assumptions. You gotta be some kind of fool to believe that what everything GC says is true.

    He has one goal - Appease and please the community so profits are high. If he started saying things like "there are tank shortages, we need to buff tanks to make them fun so more people start playing them", then that would negatively affect profits.

    But ye, was just my opinion why they implemented it, rather than just for "the threat" reason.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 01:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    For fuck's sake. Avoidance does not slow vengeance. Stop it already, log in the game and check it. Vengeance disregards armor, absorbs, -% modifiers, avoidance and block. 1.8% of the unmitigated and unavoided attack.
    Vengeance, for avoidance purposes, is based on a set swing timer (not related to the boss swing timer) with a prediction mechanic based on what it thinks the average white attack would be. It ignores special attacks and also places them on a 60 second timer.

    The less avoidance you have, the faster more vengeance stacks.


    Anyway, said my piece, there are lots of uneducated people posting in this forum. Cba explaining the avoidance mechanics time and time again to everyone individually.

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